CTA adds #157 & #52/94 Bus Pilots.

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

 

The 11 needs to come back. It's unfair the route was ever cut in the first place, and expecting everyone to walk from the Brown Line or what not to certain parts of Lincoln is just inane. It doesn't even need to go back downtown, but there should be some sort of bus service on Lincoln to North/Clark or Fullerton station at least.

31 apparently gets really good ridership when IIT is in session, so that's not too surprising. When I was taking the 94 during the pandemic, service operated fine, both before and after the extension. Actually, the bus was more on time than the 48, which often arrived 5+ minutes late and there were multiple occasions where the last SB bus simply didn't show up (at least not before I got on the 94). I agree with @artthouwill's assertation that no one was/is going to take it to the Green Line over the Blue; better for them to just say doing this increases reliability on the 52

I think this is a plus for 52 minus for 94. The sheer number of turns is enough to make an operator late. No one seems to care about the 11. It has taken away riders on the north end. All those through riders probably have migrated to the red line. Thats probably why we see so many bikes on lincoln too. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

7 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I think this is a plus for 52 minus for 94. The sheer number of turns is enough to make an operator late. No one seems to care about the 11. It has taken away riders on the north end. All those through riders probably have migrated to the red line. Thats probably why we see so many bikes on lincoln too. 

Crazy part about it is, all those turns are necessary, I think. No way to iron out the route w/o removing transfer points, or in the case of the southern half of the line, potentially adding 5+ mins of travel time if it gets caught at that rail crossing

[Busjack]

43 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Crazy part about it is, all those turns are necessary, I think. No way to iron out the route w/o removing transfer points ...

When this was discussed  here a long time ago, the deterrent was that California didn't go through the Metra yards, but apparently that isn't an issue now. 

 

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I think this is a plus for 52 minus for 94. The sheer number of turns is enough to make an operator late. No one seems to care about the 11. It has taken away riders on the north end. All those through riders probably have migrated to the red line. Thats probably why we see so many bikes on lincoln too. 

Here are some ways to reduce turns on the 94.

1.  Reassign the 94 to either C or K, which would allow you to

2.  Restore the 71st/Sacramento  turnaround. 

3.  Reroute the 94 to NOT serve Western Orange Line.  I admit this one might not be popular with some riders. But for others iand CTA drivers, it might improve reliability.   Then again,  some CTA drivers may appreciate the midwinter bathroom break, though California Pink Line could handle that. 

By my count, these actions eliminate 8 or 9 turns from the 94.

[BusHunter]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Here are some ways to reduce turns on the 94.

1.  Reassign the 94 to either C or K, which would allow you to

2.  Restore the 71st/Sacramento  turnaround. 

3.  Reroute the 94 to NOT serve Western Orange Line.  I admit this one might not be popular with some riders. But for others iand CTA drivers, it might improve reliability.   Then again,  some CTA drivers may appreciate the midwinter bathroom break, though California Pink Line could handle that. 

By my count, these actions eliminate 8 or 9 turns from the 94.

You might think the #94 is designed for #94 relief ease on the south end but I think its for the #49 too. Else they could just route the pullins and outs to the garage. 

One brainy extension they never made was either 52 or 94 to logan square blue. Other than 82 both kimball subway stops serve no service going south and the 56 goes the same place it goes. To me that makes more sense than 31. 

[artthouwill]

6 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

You might think the #94 is designed for #94 relief ease on the south end but I think its for the #49 too. Else they could just route the pullins and outs to the garage. 

One brainy extension they never made was either 52 or 94 to logan square blue. Other than 82 both kimball subway stops serve no service going south and the 56 goes the same place it goes. To me that makes more sense than 31. 

Funny that you complained about the 94 having too many turns and you proposed more turns?

I thought the 74th operated 49s either were pullins or did driver reliefs at 79th.  Granted that required either 2 bus rides or use of a company car but the route is a short distance from the garage.  When the garage was at 69th, it was a straight shot to Western and that was the relief point.   I suppose the current 94 could reintroduce that relief point.  I suppose Archer and the east west routes could use California as relief points since the 94 goes directly to the garage but I think they all still use Ashland. 

[BusHunter]

11 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Funny that you complained about the 94 having too many turns and you proposed more turns?

I thought the 74th operated 49s either were pullins or did driver reliefs at 79th.  Granted that required either 2 bus rides or use of a company car but the route is a short distance from the garage.  When the garage was at 69th, it was a straight shot to Western and that was the relief point.   I suppose the current 94 could reintroduce that relief point.  I suppose Archer and the east west routes could use California as relief points since the 94 goes directly to the garage but I think they all still use Ashland. 

No im proposing what dies at chicago/sacramento should go to logan square. Ever wonder why so many riders ride the #82 sb or now #94 sb. Because there is no other service to serve the gap within Humboldt pk from cali to kimball, Its like a north south transit desert. I dont know just seems weird for kedzie to end at chicago. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

17 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Here are some ways to reduce turns on the 94.

1.  Reassign the 94 to either C or K, which would allow you to

2.  Restore the 71st/Sacramento  turnaround. 

3.  Reroute the 94 to NOT serve Western Orange Line.  I admit this one might not be popular with some riders. But for others iand CTA drivers, it might improve reliability.   Then again,  some CTA drivers may appreciate the midwinter bathroom break, though California Pink Line could handle that. 

By my count, these actions eliminate 8 or 9 turns from the 94.

1. I find it hard to beat the 94's current alignment. CTA really like routes ending directly at garages.
2. ^
3. This would be very unpopular with riders; I took the 94 from California Orange to 74th/Damen often during the pandemic, there was a strong contingent of riders getting on and off the stop. That'd also make it the only N-S route west of the Ryan to not have a direct CTA connection before the river/s&s (44 is cutting in close). 
   • When did the 94 start going to Western Orange? I feel like that wasn't always the route alignment, even after the Orange Line opened

[NewFlyerMCI]

13 hours ago, BusHunter said:

No im proposing what dies at chicago/sacramento should go to logan square. Ever wonder why so many riders ride the #82 sb or now #94 sb. Because there is no other service to serve the gap within Humboldt pk from cali to kimball, Its like a north south transit desert. I dont know just seems weird for kedzie to end at chicago. 

I've always agreed with this. Kedzie Blvd's wide enough to support a bus to logan square. I've personally never mentioned this before b/c I just never had an adequate defense for the inevitable take of "the 82 is right there".

82 is usually among the 10 busiest bus routes in the city, maybe it could use the relief ?‍♂️

[BusHunter]

23 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I've always agreed with this. Kedzie Blvd's wide enough to support a bus to logan square. I've personally never mentioned this before b/c I just never had an adequate defense for the inevitable take of "the 82 is right there".

82 is usually among the 10 busiest bus routes in the city, maybe it could use the relief ?‍♂️

That whole mid section of the city has packed buses, you know the only route between kimball/homan and cicero is pulaski. Thats a 2 mile stretch of densely populated area. The #82 seemed to do well with artics, its too bad lincolnwd put the kobash on it. That area has become so much more than the mall over the years too bad they couldnt figure out a turn loop like turn on touhy pass walmart and the attractions east of there and somehow turn around. The industrial corridor up that way could yield some riders. Even if they looped via crawford and lincoln and back to devon thats something. Not many riders board from touhy to devon anyway on mccormick.

[artthouwill]

30 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I've always agreed with this. Kedzie Blvd's wide enough to support a bus to logan square. I've personally never mentioned this before b/c I just never had an adequate defense for the inevitable take of "the 82 is right there".

82 is usually among the 10 busiest bus routes in the city, maybe it could use the relief ?‍♂️

I guess CTA figured that Kedzie and Homan already have bus routes that parallel for more than 2 miles (Douglas to Chicago).  That's in part due to the L stations  Kedzie ( now Kedzie-Homan) on the Blue Line and the former Homan Green Line station.  Doe extending the 52 to Logan Square d anything other than  parallel the 82 for another 2 1/4 miles?  At least with Wentworth and State it can be argued that the Dan Ryan ad the Rock Island Metra are barriers

  Similarly the Red Line is a barrel between  Broadway and Sheridan.

[NewFlyerMCI]

34 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I guess CTA figured that Kedzie and Homan already have bus routes that parallel for more than 2 miles (Douglas to Chicago).  That's in part due to the L stations  Kedzie ( now Kedzie-Homan) on the Blue Line and the former Homan Green Line station.  Doe extending the 52 to Logan Square d anything other than  parallel the 82 for another 2 1/4 miles?  At least with Wentworth and State it can be argued that the Dan Ryan ad the Rock Island Metra are barriers

  Similarly the Red Line is a barrel between  Broadway and Sheridan.

You've reminded me that CTA can't even manage to realize that the 24's part-time branch has more service than it's full-time terminus. Pretty sure the 24 exists for mostly senior riders atp.

That aside, in regards to the 52/82, idk if it's worth it. At a glance, if that's the busiest section of the 82 (btwn belmont & chicago), then having the 52 as a relief option isn't the worst idea. However, if people are riding outside that corridor (mostly headed north, since the 82 & 52 parallel from Chicago to Cermak), then there's no point. We'd need stop-level data for the best analysis.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

You've reminded me that CTA can't even manage to realize that the 24's part-time branch has more service than it's full-time terminus. Pretty sure the 24 exists for mostly senior riders atp.

 

I guess you are asking why the main line ends at 79th. The extension is to serve Simeon HS and Walmart at 83rd.

[NewFlyerMCI]

18 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I guess you are asking why the main line ends at 79th. The extension is to serve Simeon HS and Walmart at 83rd.

No, I wasn't asking why, I know why the 24 has its' routing. Making a joke that more trips end at 87th/Racine than 79th/Perry, despite the 87th/Racine segment being shown as part-time service

[Sam92]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

No, I wasn't asking why, I know why the 24 has its' routing. Making a joke that more trips end at 87th/Racine than 79th/Perry, despite the 87th/Racine segment being shown as part-time service

Because it's still part of the  time the route is in service and not full time like 79th to the north. Perry counts as a full time turn around because 87th is merely a rush hour extension. If 24 was busy enough and no red line was nearby you'd probably see alternate 79th and 87th runs in the rush. It's not like 151 where the Halsted branch is a midday only special to help clear the Lakeview crowds 

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

Because it's still part of the  time the route is in service and not full time like 79th to the north. Perry counts as a full time turn around because 87th is merely a rush hour extension. If 24 was busy enough and no red line was nearby you'd probably see alternate 79th and 87th runs in the rush. It's not like 151 where the Halsted branch is a midday only special to help clear the Lakeview crowds 

NB trips start leaving/arriving 87th from like 1:30p-7:30p, almost half of that is outside peak times. Besides, CTA doesn't define the part-time service as "peak only", just as part-time. The old 151 alignment to Howard was marked as part-time b/c it only ran on Sundays. The current 81W has a similar set up, along with the 82's branch to 31st/Komensky. Even the 26 could partially qualify, since the bus runs beyond peak now.

Sure, it's "accurate" to define the 87th routing as a part-time branch (in the context of not having as much service as the main branch), but 79th is only the terminal during early morning/late nights and part of the midday. More service runs to 87th, therefore it's more "accurate" to say that's the main branch.

[Sam92]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:29 PM, NewFlyerMCI said:

NB trips start leaving/arriving 87th from like 1:30p-7:30p, almost half of that is outside peak times. Besides, CTA doesn't define the part-time service as "peak only", just as part-time. The old 151 alignment to Howard was marked as part-time b/c it only ran on Sundays. The current 81W has a similar set up, along with the 82's branch to 31st/Komensky. Even the 26 could partially qualify, since the bus runs beyond peak now.

Sure, it's "accurate" to define the 87th routing as a part-time branch (in the context of not having as much service as the main branch), but 79th is only the terminal during early morning/late nights and part of the midday. More service runs to 87th, therefore it's more "accurate" to say that's the main branch.

Yeah I know what part time is. It's any pattern which doesn't happen over most hours of service. I think you're looking at the brief journey down 79th as a separate branch when the 87th routing is a PART TIME EXTENSION of 79th/Perry. The left turn down to Perry is because there's no other place to turn around not as a part time branch. 79th is the full time terminal and 87th is the part time extension. It's literally doing the same as the 20 to be honest ?

[artthouwill]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:29 PM, NewFlyerMCI said:

NB trips start leaving/arriving 87th from like 1:30p-7:30p, almost half of that is outside peak times. Besides, CTA doesn't define the part-time service as "peak only", just as part-time. The old 151 alignment to Howard was marked as part-time b/c it only ran on Sundays. The current 81W has a similar set up, along with the 82's branch to 31st/Komensky. Even the 26 could partially qualify, since the bus runs beyond peak now.

Sure, it's "accurate" to define the 87th routing as a part-time branch (in the context of not having as much service as the main branch), but 79th is only the terminal during early morning/late nights and part of the midday. More service runs to 87th, therefore it's more "accurate" to say that's the main branch.

Not really.  The service times listed from early morning  (first trip) through early evening (last trip) are to and from 79th and Perry.  The extended times are a.m. rush and p.m. rush.  The reason trips begin so early from 87th in the afternoon is due to travel time downtown AND that it serves Simeon when students are leaving school.   The earliest dismissal is around 1:45 to 2p.m.  The X9 and X49 also start early because they will fall into the rush period by the time they get halfway through the route.  While the last NV X9 leaves 95th in the a.m. rush parameters,  it falls well outside of them for the SB return pullins to 74th from Irving Park. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

59 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Yeah I know what part time is. It's any pattern which doesn't happen over most hours of service. I think you're looking at the brief journey down 79th as a separate branch when the 87th routing is a PART TIME EXTENSION of 79th/Perry. The left turn down to Perry is because there's no other place to turn around not as a part time branch. 79th is the full time terminal and 87th is the part time extension. It's literally doing the same as the 20 to be honest ?

It's clear we won't agree on this. You aren't explaining anything to me that I don't already know. I don't see 79th/Perry as a second/separate branch (and you're the one who used the term branch in general first iirc), even though trips going to 87th/Racine don't go to 79th/Perry. In fact, "It's any pattern which doesn't happen over most hours of service." that's literally service to 79th/Perry. SB service running the full route runs from 6:30a-8:30p, that's 14 hours, 7.5 (the majority) of those hours it runs to 87th/Racine, the other 6.5 goes to 79th/Perry, and the reverse for NB.

At the end of the day, there's more service (both in service hours and trips) to 87th than 79th; it's more accurate to say ending at 79th is the "part-time service" or even "a part-time terminus of 87th/Racine service". The 20 is a bad comparison, it has weekend service, which ends at Michigan, making service to Illinois Center automatically the minority.

28 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Not really.  The service times listed from early morning  (first trip) through early evening (last trip) are to and from 79th and Perry.  The extended times are a.m. rush and p.m. rush.  The reason trips begin so early from 87th in the afternoon is due to travel time downtown AND that it serves Simeon when students are leaving school.   The earliest dismissal is around 1:45 to 2p.m.  The X9 and X49 also start early because they will fall into the rush period by the time they get halfway through the route.  While the last NV X9 leaves 95th in the a.m. rush parameters,  it falls well outside of them for the SB return pullins to 74th from Irving Park. 

And pretty much same as above.  Even if I agreed that 87th was just a rush hour extension, the 24 still has more service going there than ending at 79th/Perry. Back when the 11 ran it's full route, the 11's weekend terminus at North/Clark was shown as part-time and if trips only went downtown during peak and not all day on weekdays, I'd be saying the same thing I'm saying now about the 24. The bulk of people catching the 24 are catching a bus going to/from 87th/Racine, not 79th/Perry. If the 24 had weekend service, or even just Saturday service that ended at 79th/Perry, I wouldn't have ever made the joke at all, since the basis of it would've been inaccurate.

So as I said in the beginning, I don't think we'll agree on this. I don't have the power to change CTA's mind on this ofc, but w/o a change in schedule, everything I said, at least in relation to 87th/Racine seeing more service (I'll concede @artthouwill's point about whether or not it's consider peak) is true and therefore the schedule and map should be updated as such, even though it won't.

[Sam92]

7 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

It's clear we won't agree on this. You aren't explaining anything to me that I don't already know. I don't see 79th/Perry as a second/separate branch (and you're the one who used the term branch in general first iirc), even though trips going to 87th/Racine don't go to 79th/Perry. In fact, "It's any pattern which doesn't happen over most hours of service." that's literally service to 79th/Perry. SB service running the full route runs from 6:30a-8:30p, that's 14 hours, 7.5 (the majority) of those hours it runs to 87th/Racine, the other 6.5 goes to 79th/Perry, and the reverse for NB.

At the end of the day, there's more service (both in service hours and trips) to 87th than 79th; it's more accurate to say ending at 79th is the "part-time service" or even "a part-time terminus of 87th/Racine service". The 20 is a bad comparison, it has weekend service, which ends at Michigan, making service to Illinois Center automatically the minority.

And pretty much same as above.  Even if I agreed that 87th was just a rush hour extension, the 24 still has more service going there than ending at 79th/Perry. Back when the 11 ran it's full route, the 11's weekend terminus at North/Clark was shown as part-time and if trips only went downtown during peak and not all day on weekdays, I'd be saying the same thing I'm saying now about the 24. The bulk of people catching the 24 are catching a bus going to/from 87th/Racine, not 79th/Perry. If the 24 had weekend service, or even just Saturday service that ended at 79th/Perry, I wouldn't have ever made the joke at all, since the basis of it would've been inaccurate.

So as I said in the beginning, I don't think we'll agree on this. I don't have the power to change CTA's mind on this ofc, but w/o a change in schedule, everything I said, at least in relation to 87th/Racine seeing more service (I'll concede @artthouwill's point about whether or not it's consider peak) is true and therefore the schedule and map should be updated as such, even though it won't.

What you gotta realize 79th is a FULL TIME terminal because if you took away the need for 87th and Racine trips then those would be going to 79th and perry so Technically 79th and perry is correctly labelled because south of 87th is a PART TIME GENERATOR based off only going that far during rush periods (as @artthouwill mentioned any trips outside of peak are pretty much buses that have to go back to the garage anyway). Just because 24 runs weekdays only does not make that scenario different from the 20 seeing as they still function on the same principle of (this is a rush hour generator only) 

[Sam92]

7 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

It's clear we won't agree on this. You aren't explaining anything to me that I don't already know. I don't see 79th/Perry as a second/separate branch (and you're the one who used the term branch in general first iirc), even though trips going to 87th/Racine don't go to 79th/Perry. In fact, "It's any pattern which doesn't happen over most hours of service." that's literally service to 79th/Perry. SB service running the full route runs from 6:30a-8:30p, that's 14 hours, 7.5 (the majority) of those hours it runs to 87th/Racine, the other 6.5 goes to 79th/Perry, and the reverse for NB.

At the end of the day, there's more service (both in service hours and trips) to 87th than 79th; it's more accurate to say ending at 79th is the "part-time service" or even "a part-time terminus of 87th/Racine service". The 20 is a bad comparison, it has weekend service, which ends at Michigan, making service to Illinois Center automatically the minority.

And pretty much same as above.  Even if I agreed that 87th was just a rush hour extension, the 24 still has more service going there than ending at 79th/Perry. Back when the 11 ran it's full route, the 11's weekend terminus at North/Clark was shown as part-time and if trips only went downtown during peak and not all day on weekdays, I'd be saying the same thing I'm saying now about the 24. The bulk of people catching the 24 are catching a bus going to/from 87th/Racine, not 79th/Perry. If the 24 had weekend service, or even just Saturday service that ended at 79th/Perry, I wouldn't have ever made the joke at all, since the basis of it would've been inaccurate.

So as I said in the beginning, I don't think we'll agree on this. I don't have the power to change CTA's mind on this ofc, but w/o a change in schedule, everything I said, at least in relation to 87th/Racine seeing more service (I'll concede @artthouwill's point about whether or not it's consider peak) is true and therefore the schedule and map should be updated as such, even though it won't.

Think of it this way. Every bus HAS to go to or pass 79th regardless of weather it's going to Racine or not therefore everything NORTH of 79th is the main full time service therefore Perry is correctly labelled. It's only part time in the sense that there's no better place to turn around a bus but we're talking a 2 block deviation here. If they didn't use or have perry the only other option for turning a bus around in that area is either to be like the 3 when CSU was closed and take a super long loop out to 83rd and back or go out to Halsted. 

[artthouwill]

11 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

It's clear we won't agree on this. You aren't explaining anything to me that I don't already know. I don't see 79th/Perry as a second/separate branch (and you're the one who used the term branch in general first iirc), even though trips going to 87th/Racine don't go to 79th/Perry. In fact, "It's any pattern which doesn't happen over most hours of service." that's literally service to 79th/Perry. SB service running the full route runs from 6:30a-8:30p, that's 14 hours, 7.5 (the majority) of those hours it runs to 87th/Racine, the other 6.5 goes to 79th/Perry, and the reverse for NB.

At the end of the day, there's more service (both in service hours and trips) to 87th than 79th; it's more accurate to say ending at 79th is the "part-time service" or even "a part-time terminus of 87th/Racine service". The 20 is a bad comparison, it has weekend service, which ends at Michigan, making service to Illinois Center automatically the minority.

And pretty much same as above.  Even if I agreed that 87th was just a rush hour extension, the 24 still has more service going there than ending at 79th/Perry. Back when the 11 ran it's full route, the 11's weekend terminus at North/Clark was shown as part-time and if trips only went downtown during peak and not all day on weekdays, I'd be saying the same thing I'm saying now about the 24. The bulk of people catching the 24 are catching a bus going to/from 87th/Racine, not 79th/Perry. If the 24 had weekend service, or even just Saturday service that ended at 79th/Perry, I wouldn't have ever made the joke at all, since the basis of it would've been inaccurate.

So as I said in the beginning, I don't think we'll agree on this. I don't have the power to change CTA's mind on this ofc, but w/o a change in schedule, everything I said, at least in relation to 87th/Racine seeing more service (I'll concede @artthouwill's point about whether or not it's consider peak) is true and therefore the schedule and map should be updated as such, even though it won't.

I understand what you're saying.   I still think the concept is the time of day service darts and ends and not the amount of hors a segment of the route gets served.  I would agree with you if the first and last trips began and ended at 87th. 

[Sam92]

55 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I understand what you're saying.   I still think the concept is the time of day service darts and ends and not the amount of hors a segment of the route gets served.  I would agree with you if the first and last trips began and ended at 87th. 

What is throwing him off is that Perry is used midday only yes but that only makes it a part time turnaround in the literal sense; it's the turnaround for full time service which is 79th to Wacker during all hours of service therefore the full time terminal. Originally after service to 103rd was cut back, service south of 79th was only to 87th and Vincennes (no South Holland routing) for school times mainly 7-9 and 3-5-ish. Then in the early 2000's the hours were expanded. There wasn't an alert or reason given for the extension to Racine but that started in 2006. The south Holland routing was the result of what started as sewer work on Vincennes but customers asked for it to be made permanent instead of ending In early 2012. 

[Sam92]

I'll throw a bone though. Mark whatever isn't on Vincennes north of 79th with a dashed line and put (rush hours) on Racine and (midday only) on Perry. 

[artthouwill]

24 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

What is throwing him off is that Perry is used midday only yes but that only makes it a part time turnaround in the literal sense; it's the turnaround for full time service which is 79th to Wacker during all hours of service therefore the full time terminal. Originally after service to 103rd was cut back, service south of 79th was only to 87th and Vincennes (no South Holland routing) for school times mainly 7-9 and 3-5-ish. Then in the early 2000's the hours were expanded. There wasn't an alert or reason given for the extension to Racine but that started in 2006. The south Holland routing was the result of what started as sewer work on Vincennes but customers asked for it to be made permanent instead of ending In early 2012. 

I think Racine gave the buses on 24 an actual turnaround without making difficult turns on Vincennes and it also gives drivers a place to use the facilities as none exist downtown.   The 87th and Racine turnaround was only being used by the 44 which doesn't have a huge frequency but the turnaround can fit at least 3 buses..

I think if you look at a route like 79,  most people would say the route to Ford City is the full route, although 24 hr service is available between the Lake!front and Western.  When I was young,  more trips ended at Western than Cicero ( Scottsdale shopping center where the 54B also terminated).  Then around 1978 service was extended to Ford City.   Slowly but surely the ridership to Ford City increased to the point where at least half of the buses west to Ford City.   Back then Ford City was the extension but with expanded hours beyond the mall hours now us considered the full route with Western as a short turn.  86 is similar.