All door boarding pilot

[Tcmetro]

CTA will run a six-month trial of all-door boarding this year, starting in June. Ventra readers will be placed at the back doors of 30 buses on the J14 and 192 lines. 

The cost is $450,000 for 30 readers, so that comes to $15,000 each. 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/transportation/ct-biz-cta-bus-boarding-getting-around-20200224-57pscolhgfamvkxtyoeft5br6i-story.html

[NewFlyerMCI]

4 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

CTA will run a six-month trial of all-door boarding this year, starting in June. Ventra readers will be placed at the back doors of 30 buses on the J14 and 192 lines. 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/transportation/ct-biz-cta-bus-boarding-getting-around-20200224-57pscolhgfamvkxtyoeft5br6i-story.html

Well, that's interesting. I'm excited, although I don't know if I would've chosen the J14 (26th busiest route in the system) and by extension the 192 (which is funny they added it, since it's only here because it's interlined with the J14), but I guess it's easier maintain that pool of buses. You think they would've either:

• chosen the 6 as well, since passengers loads can reach as much, if not more than the J14 (even if the J14 carries about 1.8k more passengers on average) and they're at the same garage. 
• chosen the 6 and the 26, although I know the 26 doesn't run fully artic

Maybe the limited stop nature of the J14 is part of the reason, as it's the only non X#, regular/typical service route that makes limited stops.

They should definitely have a trained officer or personnel who can do ventra card checks, fare evasion imo happens more out of laziness than intent (although they can overlap). I can't remember the last time I "paid" to ride an SBS+ route ?. All in all, I'm excited for this, hopefully the pilot is successful and we can see this spread to more CTA routes!

[ajm522]

That is why I saw 4300 with a Ventra transponder at the back door. 

[Tcmetro]

Yeah, it's definitely because it's a "Jump" route, which is basically CTAs once-implemented version of SBS. 

J14 has really high frequency at rush hour, so this will hopefully reduce bunching. 

[artthouwill]

4 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Well, that's interesting. I'm excited, although I don't know if I would've chosen the J14 (26th busiest route in the system) and by extension the 192 (which is funny they added it, since it's only here because it's interlined with the J14), but I guess it's easier maintain that pool of buses. You think they would've either:

• chosen the 6 as well, since passengers loads can reach as much, if not more than the J14 (even if the J14 carries about 1.8k more passengers on average) and they're at the same garage. 
• chosen the 6 and the 26, although I know the 26 doesn't run fully artic

Maybe the limited stop nature of the J14 is part of the reason, as it's the only non X#, regular/typical service route that makes limited stops.

They should definitely have a trained officer or personnel who can do ventra card checks, fare evasion imo happens more out of laziness than intent (although they can overlap). I can't remember the last time I "paid" to ride an SBS+ route ?. All in all, I'm excited for this, hopefully the pilot is successful and we can see this spread to more CTA routes!

I think these 2 routes were chosen based on their loading patterns 

  Consider that the J14 primarily loads NB on Jeffery with few local passengers exiting, and from downtown the J14 is almost exclusively loading passengers.  The 192 exclusively loads from downtown in the a.m. and from the hospital in the p.m.

I wonder what happens when the rear reader either fails or a passenger's Ventra card doesn't have any value?  I think this would work better with a 3 door setup with the middle doors serving as a second entrance.   At least that door is closer to the driver if an issue comes up.

[NewFlyerMCI]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I think these 2 routes were chosen based on their loading patterns 

  Consider that the J14 primarily loads NB on Jeffery with few local passengers exiting, and from downtown the J14 is almost exclusively loading passengers.  The 192 exclusively loads from downtown in the a.m. and from the hospital in the p.m.

I wonder what happens when the rear reader either fails or a passenger's Ventra card doesn't have any value?  I think this would work better with a 3 door setup with the middle doors serving as a second entrance.   At least that door is closer to the driver if an issue comes up.

That was my other concern as well. All door boarding works best with 3 doors and on top of that, the divider is also both a boon (separate flow of traffic on/off bus) and hindrance (space constraints, aisleway is very narrow). I've only seen all door boarding with 2 doors when its on artics that have 5 doors total

[ChicagoNova]

8 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

That was my other concern as well. All door boarding works best with 3 doors and on top of that, the divider is also both a boon (separate flow of traffic on/off bus) and hindrance (space constraints, aisleway is very narrow). I've only seen all door boarding with 2 doors when its on artics that have 5 doors total

I really think that CTA's next order of artics should feature 3 doors instead of 2. CTA is already behind in the times in that area.

[strictures]

21 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I wonder what happens when the rear reader either fails or a passenger's Ventra card doesn't have any value?  I think this would work better with a 3 door setup with the middle doors serving as a second entrance.   At least that door is closer to the driver if an issue comes up.

As an occasional 192 rider, I have never seen anyone with no value on their card.  85% come into the city by Metra, so they keep with the value as they use the phone app to pay the train fare.  The rest board at Roosevelt & they also keep their cards topped up.

[NewFlyerMCI]

12 hours ago, ChicagoNova said:

I really think that CTA's next order of artics should feature 3 doors instead of 2. CTA is already behind in the times in that area.

Do they? I've always thought they've been fine. I think it would help more for them to remove that pesky divider in the rear alighting well.

[geneking7320]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Do they? I've always thought they've been fine. I think it would help more for them to remove that pesky divider in the rear alighting well.

I agree about the divider. Also in this experiment I expect the driver to open the rear doors (and not just unlock them).

[ChicagoNova]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Do they? I've always thought they've been fine. I think it would help more for them to remove that pesky divider in the rear alighting well.

No. Our artics only have 2 doors.

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, ChicagoNova said:

No. Our artics only have 2 doors.

What exactly was this a rebuttal to? I acknowledged CTA artics only have 2 doors, I was saying not sure they need artics with 3 doors

[ChicagoNova]

7 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

What exactly was this a rebuttal to? I acknowledged CTA artics only have 2 doors, I was saying not sure they need artics with 3 doors

My mistake. Artics of other TAs, including NYMTA & LACMTA, & even some in Seattle, have 3 doors.

[BusHunter]

I saw on facebook that cta wants to start two existing routes with dual door loading (front and rear) the #192 and #J14. I wonder how they will do that? The #192 you can station personnel at the route ends but #J14 has multiple stops. 

[Mr.NewFlyer1051]

24 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I saw on facebook that cta wants to start two existing routes with dual door loading (front and rear) the #192 and #J14. I wonder how they will do that? The #192 you can station personnel at the route ends but #J14 has multiple stops. 

there has been a thread that’s been made already

[BusHunter]

So how will they police that? If it's unmanned I see alot of fare evasion.

[artthouwill]

10 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

So how will they police that? If it's unmanned I see alot of fare evasion.

If you are referring to the CTA, I don't know.   Pretty much these two pilot routes are low evasion risks.  A good number of the J14 stops are transfers from other routes.  The 192 pickups from downtown are Metra and CTA stations which are also transfer points   if anyone manages to evade a fare,  most likely to cost CTA $ 0.25.

When I was a kid,  most illegal back door boardings were at Dan Ryan Line stations.   While there may have been some people who walked to the station to avoid paying,  most people came from the train and had transfers.   

I'm sure CTA will only allow rear boarding at heavy stops or at a stop with one or two people to mitigate fare evasion. 

 

[NewFlyerMCI]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

If you are referring to the CTA, I don't know.   Pretty much these two pilot routes are low evasion risks.  A good number of the J14 stops are transfers from other routes.  The 192 pickups from downtown are Metra and CTA stations which are also transfer points   if anyone manages to evade a fare,  most likely to cost CTA $ 0.25.

When I was a kid,  most illegal back door boardings were at Dan Ryan Line stations.   While there may have been some people who walked to the station to avoid paying,  most people came from the train and had transfers.   

I'm sure CTA will only allow rear boarding at heavy stops or at a stop with one or two people to mitigate fare evasion. 

 

If they do that, then there's really no point. You might as well have someone with a handheld ventra reader outside at these stops instead of installing it on the bus. As much as I ahte to say it, the 192 isn't going to have a serious problem with fare evasion. For the J14, they should station people at 67th or 71st, and then at 11th, who can do random checks. As long as they're consistent, I think it should work. Alternatively, and I know this is more expensive, they could station CTA personnel in the back of each bus to make sure people are tapping?

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

If they do that, then there's really no point. You might as well have someone with a handheld ventra reader outside at these stops instead of installing it on the bus. As much as I ahte to say it, the 192 isn't going to have a serious problem with fare evasion. For the J14, they should station people at 67th or 71st, and then at 11th, who can do random checks. As long as they're consistent, I think it should work. Alternatively, and I know this is more expensive, they could station CTA personnel in the back of each bus to make sure people are tapping?

Neither will the J14

  Transfer points are 93rd, 87th, 79th, 75th, and 71st.  I believe at 67th, passengers have the option of using the 6 or 26 in addition to the J14 and 67th is more of an originating point than a transfer point.  With the frequencies of the J14, every bus shouldn't be full, especially with some a.m. rush buses starting at 79th and Jeffery.

[BusHunter]

They probably need to put a few people out at key stops where the ridership is highest. I'd only do it in the rush period. Regardless doing this involves a level of trust between your riders and the service provider. In a similar trust issue Jewel stores put out the automated checkouts then took them away. I was told because people were not honest. They have brought them back for round 2. Me myself I mostly buy at the automated checkout and I never used to do that. Now it dictates where I shop. In a sign of the times, I was chartering in Peoria,illinois and I went to the walmart east of the river. I counted the automated checkouts. Out of 24 checkouts 16 were automated. I was like yeah this is the wave of the future. Where walmart is smart though is they have people checking at the doors to see what you bought and cross referencing with the receipt. I think that's the future concept. It's not going to work completely unmanned. I think that applies to the cta as well.

[rvwnsd]

I wonder how SF MUNI polices all-door boarding on buses. They've had it for quite some time . Despite the cost of housing (and everything else, for that matter) there are some very rough areas.

[Tcmetro]

SF Muni (I believe Vancouver TransLink as well) have roaming teams of fare inspectors. In my few visits, I've never seen them. Because of app fares and paper transfers, riders don't necessarily need to validate their fare with the operator. CTA will be a bit different because cash payments have to go through the front door, otherwise a Ventra card has to be tapped. I wonder if CTA will have drivers enforce fares if you just walk past the driver.

Los Angeles also has similar practices now on the 720 (Wilshire Rapid) and 754 (Vermont Rapid) lines. 

[Smolensk]

As long as you have a paper transfer or an active fare on your Clipper Card or mobile app, you don't have to tap in or show the driver anything when boarding a SF Muni bus.  You just walk in and sit down.  But if a fare inspector comes by, you have to show them proof of payment or face being ticketed.

But here is the part you might not like.  If your transfer expires while you are on the Muni bus, you are supposed to go back up to the front and pay again and get a new transfer.  With the CTA, if you tap in one minute before your transfer expires and stay on the bus for an hour, no problem.  With Muni, if an  inspector comes by and your transfer is expired,  you are treated like someone who didn't pay their fare at all, even if your transfer was valid when you boarded the bus.

[strictures]

20 hours ago, BusHunter said:

 Where walmart is smart though is they have people checking at the doors to see what you bought and cross referencing with the receipt. I think that's the future concept. It's not going to work completely unmanned. I think that applies to the cta as well.

The only problem with checking receipts at the door is that except for Costco or Sam's Club, where when you signed up, you agreed to the receipt checking, Illinois & most states are part of the Uniform Commercial Code, which states that when you pay for something & get the receipt, you now own the items & checking you is then illegal searching, unless they have evidence you stole something.  I always just walk right past the Walmart receipt checkers & they never try to stop me.

[NewFlyerMCI]

20 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

SF Muni (I believe Vancouver TransLink as well) have roaming teams of fare inspectors. In my few visits, I've never seen them. Because of app fares and paper transfers, riders don't necessarily need to validate their fare with the operator. CTA will be a bit different because cash payments have to go through the front door, otherwise a Ventra card has to be tapped. I wonder if CTA will have drivers enforce fares if you just walk past the driver.

Los Angeles also has similar practices now on the 720 (Wilshire Rapid) and 754 (Vermont Rapid) lines. 

CT FasTrak has the roaming inspectors as well, but I guess it's easier since there are so few stops (stations, really) they can have personnel at each. I remember when I rode last year, I got checked on the way from Hartford to New Britain and back.