7000-series - Delivery & Updates

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, Juniorz said:

Regardless of "your real work", the consulting firm is the source, the USDOT confirmed that additional funding sources are in place for the order and further more, will not go into combative conversations period. 

I'm not arguing that. But if you reread the Railway Age article, that's all it says.

Earlier this month, CTA awarded a $1.31 billion contract to China-based CSR Sifang America Joint Venture for 846 7000 Series cars. CTA will initially purchase a base $632 million order of 400 cars, with options to purchase the remainder in coming years.

but before that

CTA will use the TIFIA loan to purchase 490 railcars, replacing nearly one third of the aging railcars in its entire fleet.

What I originally said was that the image in the tweet was phony, and as @MTRSP1900-CTA3200 indicated, someone slapped something on maybe a stock shot of a 5000. That's all.

[BusHunter]

Why does that rendering look like an mta car? I thought the rendering looks better than the original. The original looked more like a Jason Voorhees look!! This one although better just looks like it has A blue plastic insert on top of a 5000 end. I can't help but think of all the taggers itching to get at that end. They need a removable plastic shield they could possibly remove to put on top of the blue as an anti graffiti measure. 

As far as where there are going. Pink line does sound like the leader because they will most likely use the same reason they used with the 5000s that they are teething them there and what better place than on the lightest line. I dont think they'll stay there though. I think if they can get this red line extension going as well as rpm they will most likely send them to the red line.

We can always hope they will pair them with 5000s and maybe make 5000s belly cars but I thought I read both series are incompatible with each other. If they could do that they could actually get every train to at least have your choice of longitudinal 5000 or 7000 cars with the forward facing seats. That idea would best please the commuter based on complaints of the 5000 series.

[Pink Jazz]

5 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Why does that rendering look like an mta car? I thought the rendering looks better than the original. The original looked more like a Jason Voorhees look!! This one although better just looks like it has A blue plastic insert on top of a 5000 end. I can't help but think of all the taggers itching to get at that end. They need a removable plastic shield they could possibly remove to put on top of the blue as an anti graffiti measure. 

As far as where there are going. Pink line does sound like the leader because they will most likely use the same reason they used with the 5000s that they are teething them there and what better place than on the lightest line. I dont think they'll stay there though. I think if they can get this red line extension going as well as rpm they will most likely send them to the red line.

We can always hope they will pair them with 5000s and maybe make 5000s belly cars but I thought I read both series are incompatible with each other. If they could do that they could actually get every train to at least have your choice of longitudinal 5000 or 7000 cars with the forward facing seats. That idea would best please the commuter based on complaints of the 5000 series.

Well, since 5000s and 7000s will be incompatible with each other, that I why I suggested Pink and Green Lines should get 7000s and send their 5000s to the Red Line to accomodate for the Red Line Extension.  That way the Red Line can maintain a compatible fleet.

[BusHunter]

8 minutes ago, Pink Jazz said:

Well, since 5000s and 7000s will be incompatible with each other, that I why I suggested Pink and Green Lines should get 7000s and send their 5000s to the Red Line to accomodate for the Red Line Extension.  That way the Red Line can maintain a compatible fleet.

Usually though if there is a new line or new construction like rpm that gives them the edge. I'll probably fall over if they (#7000s) really go to the blue line. I mean look at it this way you have a brand new line going out to 130th/stony and what do you deliver when the mare shows up with his press? an older rail car with grime on it from heavy use? We know the Red line can really go through cars as they have too many with too much demand and not enough manpower to maintain it to spec. (not that I'm saying they are not capable only that the sheer volume makes this hard)

[Mr.cta85]

For the life of me I don't understand why would cta chose not to make the 7000's compatible with the 5000's. I mean if you're staring a new generation of rail cars why not make them compatible that way you can mix the fleet up for different lines. Do you guys think it's a good idea to make them compatible or not? I would love to know what you guys think of it.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Mr.cta85 said:

For the life of me I don't understand why would cta chose not to make the 7000's compatible with the 5000's. I mean if you're staring a new generation of rail cars why not make them compatible that way you can mix the fleet up for different lines. Do you guys think it's a good idea to make them compatible or not? I would love to know what you guys think of it.

CTA clearly said why they did it--they couldn't get enough competitive bids if they insisted on compatibility. Must have been too much Bombardier proprietary technology or software in them.

Also, since Andre said CTA already has enough 5000s to run the Red Line Extension, these cars look all earmarked to Blue, Orange, and Brown, so it isn't going to make any difference whether they can be intertrained or not, just as CTA said it didn't make any difference that 5000s couldn't be trained with 2600s and 3200s.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

1 hour ago, Mr.cta85 said:

For the life of me I don't understand why would cta chose not to make the 7000's compatible with the 5000's. I mean if you're staring a new generation of rail cars why not make them compatible that way you can mix the fleet up for different lines. Do you guys think it's a good idea to make them compatible or not? I would love to know what you guys think of it.

Compatibility sounds good at first thought, but if CRRC has to get software and tech from Bombardier (see Busjack's response), it will complicate the manufacturing process, especially since Bombardier isn't too happy about the entire contract award outcome. Though even if the two series were compatible, I don't know how much the feature would be used, considering I only remember the eight lines as follows (since 5000s can't run with other cars, saying a line is now entirely 5000s isn't necessary):

Red Line: Almost entirely 2600s for the 21st century, except when 2400s were added before their retirement.
Orange Line: Almost entirely 3200s from opening to now, except when 2400s were added before their retirement, and now the line appears to be dominated by 2600s as the 3200s are being rehabbed. The two types may not be mixed anymore, but I can also be wrong.
Yellow Line: Entirely 3200s until the third rail installation or 2009, then entirely 2600s (I know for a fact that I'm wrong on specific 3200 withdrawal times, please correct me).
Green Line: Entirely 2400s.
Blue Line: This line stuck out like a sore thumb, so it's the only main exception in my book. 2600s and 2200s mixed, now entirely 2600s.
Purple Line: I've seen solid sets of 2600s and 2400s (mostly the latter), and the two mixed together.
Brown Line: Almost entirely 3200s until very recently, though the 3200s seem to run by themselves.
Pink Line: Only mixed cars because of the Blue Line, when the Douglas Blue service ended, all Pink Line trains simply used 2600s.

I'm not sure if AC propulsion fixes this problem entirely, but the tiny motor differences in the High Performance Family cars caused them to ride funny together. Although never used in regular service, a 3200-2200 combo would be very jerky, as the 3200s brake the lightest, while the 2200 brake the hardest (according to a veteran motorman).

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

but if CRRC has to get software and tech from Bombardier (see Busjack's response), it will complicate the manufacturing process, especially since Bombardier isn't too happy about the entire contract award outcome

The simpler answer indicated by CTA was that other companies wouldn't bid. I'm not sure how Sumitomo could have bid the first time, but maybe your explanation applied to them.

On the rest of your stuff, everything from 2000 through 3458 was compatible, but it took getting rid of the PCCs in about 1996 to get there.The 3200s had some features that the earlier ones didn't, but didn't keep them from being trained with the others, such as on the Orange Line at least at some time

.

1 hour ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

Blue Line: This line stuck out like a sore thumb, so it's the only main exception in my book. 2600s and 2200s mixed, now entirely 2600s.

Blue Line stuck out as a sore thumb in the 1970s because both PCC and 2000s-2200s ran there, just not mixed in trains. Afterwards, 2200s were run mixed with 2600s because the 2200s, with blinker doors, were not handicap accessible and the ADA regulations required at least one accessible car per train to declare the line accessible (Metra still has a similar situation).

 

1 hour ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

I'm not sure if AC propulsion fixes this problem entirely

I'm not sure the problem between the 5000s and 7000s is solely the propulsion system and software. One of the things that came up in Bombardier's protest is that Bombardier's second price was higher because CTA asked for a more technically advanced car, and, at the time CTA said it wanted a car that met world standards. It could have involved anything from the flat screen maps to the automatic deicers. Someone would need a better technical background than mine to know.

[BusHunter]

I think not making the cars compatible is a mistake as they should have just paid the extra money for this. We know how problems tend to develop and if something should happen to restrict any cars use like rehabs, weather, car faults they will have a problem cause they can't rely on another set of cars to bail them out. All I can say is they need to order alot of cars and maybe they'll have extra but there only so much storage and then you get into issues like instead of buying more cars why not just pay for less that are compatible? 

On another front, you know I was thinking yesterday I wonder how close this 7000s plant will be to the red line extension. Could a spur or even an operable track be ran to future cta property? If so cars could be delivered through the red line. Of course this is contingent on schedule but it makes for an interesting discussion. Could test cars actually run cta road miles unofficially? This is going to be interesting anyway. I'm sure many of us train buffs will be out to the plant to see what's going on since its so close.

[Busjack]

13 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

On another front, you know I was thinking yesterday I wonder how close this 7000s plant will be to the red line extension. Could a spur or even an operable track be ran to future cta property?

The Red Line extension won't be done in time if the projected construction start date is 2022.

There was some discussion before about using the loading facility at 63rd and Calumet, but the manufacturer is responsible for getting them to the acceptance point at Skokie Shops. I don't know how many deliveries were left when the embankment collapsed, but Bombardier made all deliveries to Skokie.

[BusHunter]

Possibly the end of the order could be delivered that way if they went for 846 with 7000 delivery starting in Oct 2020 with about 120 cars a year. If the red line completes in 2026 maybe the last 100 cars could be delivered that way but you never know if one track could be built ahead of the other they wouldn't necessarily need electricity to transport them just tracks.

 

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

12 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Possibly the end of the order could be delivered that way if they went for 846 with 7000 delivery starting in Oct 2020 with about 120 cars a year. If the red line completes in 2026 maybe the last 100 cars could be delivered that way but you never know if one track could be built ahead of the other they wouldn't necessarily need electricity to transport them just tracks.

 

But what's more exciting than seeing a low boy with a brand new railcar rolling down the streets of Chicago? Nothing much, especially if you participate in this forum.

[sw4400]

The breakdown I got for the cars are as follows(this was either from someone on the forum or on a media site)

Base Order: 7001-7400(400 Units)(Will be used to replace the remaining 2600-Series railcars)

Options 1&2: 7401-7656(257 Units)(Will be used to replace the 3200-Series railcars)

Options 3&4 7657-7846(190 Units?)(Will be used for extensions of rail lines like the Red Line to 130th*)

 

*There was talk of other extensions... like Orange Line to Ford City Mall and I believe a rumored extension of the Brown Line further west or north of Kimball? The Brown Line was something I recall hearing about once awhile ago and that may have fizzled out, but the Orange Line extension may be something that may be considered in a future budget proposal, maybe to begin as the Red Line extension is being done to be completed after it is finished.

[BusHunter]

6 hours ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

But what's more exciting than seeing a low boy with a brand new railcar rolling down the streets of Chicago? Nothing much, especially if you participate in this forum.

Maybe testing at the factory especially if you can sneak a peek on the progress. But they might have to be careful their new cars don't get vandalized before they even go to cta. Looks rural out at 136th/Torrence. They might need full time security or some type of indoor storage. I would only trust the cars outside in the daylight while testing 

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Maybe testing at the factory especially if you can sneak a peek on the progress. But they might have to be careful their new cars don't get vandalized before they even go to cta. Looks rural out at 136th/Torrence. They might need full time security or some type of indoor storage. I would only trust the cars outside in the daylight while testing 

Somehow the Ford plant has been able to ship from there for the past 93 years. I guess you won't buy a Taurus.

[BusHunter]

29 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Somehow the Ford plant has been able to ship from there for the past 93 years. I guess you won't buy a Taurus.

Ford has it own security most likely and big companies might even have a guard at the parking lot entrance. It would help if the rail manufacturing was a 24 hours operation. If so there should be plenty of eyes out to see if anythings up 

[Juniorz]

Just now, BusHunter said:

Ford has it own security most likely and big companies might even have a guard at the parking lot entrance. It would help if the rail manufacturing was a 24 hours operation. If so there should be plenty of eyes out to see if anything up 

This is a manufacturing plant, so I'm too sure that security will be available to greet individuals that attempt to make that unauthorized move.

One a brighter note, here are more views of the revised rendering of the 7000-series

[Busjack]

24 minutes ago, Juniorz said:

One a brighter note, here are more views of the revised rendering of the 7000-series

Look a little more like it. While a blue interior, it has the seats with the lumbar supports and clearly shows the center compartment arrangement.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Juniorz said:

 

On closer look, it also looks like there are ceiling handholds for prehensile apes.

[sw4400]

9 minutes ago, chicagopcclcar said:

The artist/photograher should spend some time with engineering/mechanical resources. CTA railcars have their trucks closer to the car ends, not beneath the quarter-point side doors. Also, ladders beneath the side doors should be within the side envelope measurement, not extended as pictured here. Any person familiar with transit equipment would notice this. A photo showing 5000 series railcar is included for reference.

There has been speculation about outside color....blue for instance.  Remember, there were two prototypical 5000 series cars that had outside color....blue. CTA management did not approve outside blue coloring and it was left off the 714 railcar order. Will there be a change in the management's thinking a decade later? We'll have to see.  A picture of the prototype cars is #5009-5010  included. 

Another speculation item is about rail delivery. The Torrence Ave. site does have rail service...Norfolk Southern RR. The CTA Skokie Shops does not have rail service. New railcars have to be prepped by Skokie Shops before new cars can be run on CTA rails.  We learned that when truck delivery of the last 5000 series occurred at 63rd St. lower yard. Even prepped, the railcars needed further shopping and rail testing before they were qualified for revenue service. Low-boy highway trailer delivery would take hours  from Torrence to Skokie.  Railroad delivery would take days, even if Skokie Shops could get rail service reinstated. No line shops like Midway, 98th St., Forest Park can do prepping. If they could, what would be the need for Skokie? Do the math. Do the finance.  Have a good day.    

DH 

 

Best bet is to utilize Norfolk Southern to deliver the cars to a location where they can be trucked to a CTA rail yard. Gives NS and a trucking firm jobs with the CTA.

[Busjack]

16 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

Best bet is to utilize Norfolk Southern to deliver the cars to a location where they can be trucked to a CTA rail yard. Gives NS and a trucking firm jobs with the CTA.

Trucking companies get trucking jobs.

If we believe all the stuff about rail yard congestion in Chicago, it is easy enough to get a truck onto I-94 at 130th St. and off at Touhy. Eliminates at least one transfer. CTA cars were never directly delivered on the rails, so someone would have to load and unload them from a flatcar. Then they would have to load them onto a flat trailer. Also, this assumes some intermodal facility near Skokie, of which I am not aware. UP and CP yards are all in the western suburbs, and freight trains are diverted at Techny to get there.

[BusHunter]

I really don't see why cta couldn't do it themselves, they have a low boy trailer. Why contract out for a trip of less than 3 hrs loading and unloading. 

As far as deliveries I heard that #6000 deliveries were done by rail on the railroad once existing outside skokie shops. Maybe they had a spur or something. Also heard they were delivered to 63rd lower in the days before skokie. They certainly were not delivering wood cars by truck as it didn't exist. I thought I did hear some of the #2600 series was delivered by union Pacific. 

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, Juniorz said:

This is a manufacturing plant, so I'm too sure that security will be available to greet individuals that attempt to make that unauthorized move.

One a brighter note, here are more views of the revised rendering of the 7000-series

I'm starting to like how they look but if they take the blue ends off you basically have a 5000. Unfortunately that's probably what will happen. I wonder how the mta keeps it's car ends clean?

[Busjack]

25 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

As far as deliveries I heard that #6000 deliveries were done by rail on the railroad once existing outside skokie shops. Maybe they had a spur or something. Also heard they were delivered to 63rd lower in the days before skokie. They certainly were not delivering wood cars by truck as it didn't exist. I thought I did hear some of the #2600 series was delivered by union Pacific. 

There a pictures in the CERA 115 (pages 30-31) that they came in on flatcars on the Chicago and North Shore after an interchange in North Chicago, and there was an unloading ramp at Skokie where there would be a work motor hauling the car down. Obviously, there is no longer a North Shore railroad, nor whatever was the C&NW spur that ran from the Mayfair area through Skokie and Evanston.

The lower yard at that time undoubtedly had  a connection to the adjoining NYC or PRR tracks, again there a pictures in the books of electric locomotives using it.

[Busjack]

25 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I'm starting to like how they look but if they take the blue ends off you basically have a 5000. Unfortunately that's probably what will happen. I wonder how the mta keeps it's car ends clean?

CTA has had composite car ends since the 2000s. The 2400s were gelcoated gray, but presumably to match the 2600s, not because the red white and blue got tagged.