Resumption of Pace routes and services

[MetroShadow]

28 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

RTA had to clean house once before in 1982. They overexpanded 1977-81 and it bankrupted them. There has to be an actual need for a route, not some nebulous "build it and they will come". After two years, the reality that the suspended routes were no longer needed has been recognized.

 The sad part is that the North Shore realignment was probably a good idea at the time it was planned, and would still be good if it had been implemented, the fact it wasn't now means all new ideas will be proposed at some point.

Especially if a while network redesign is in the cards, although implementation may take longer than not. 

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

 

 The sad part is that the North Shore realignment was probably a good idea at the time it was planned, and would still be good if it had been implemented, the fact it wasn't now means all new ideas will be proposed at some point.

As I had posted earlier, Pace said anything going forward would be in accordance with the Driving Innovation process. Given that Deerbrook Mall and Northbrook Court are 87.362% dead, and 422 didn't have much of any other local ridership north of the Glen (unless UPS subsidizes a couple of trips), I figure that it will be killed off once the CARES money ends. Except for a couple of trunk routes (213, 215, and maybe 626), all that seems left of North Shore is school trips.

11 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

Especially if a while network redesign is in the cards, although implementation may take longer than not. 

That's essentially what the e-mail said, although it looks like is going to be later than "sometime in 2022."

 

[renardo870]

On 9/23/2022 at 4:05 PM, renardo870 said:

I'm surprised that Pace would just discontinue all of the suspended routes and not even attempt a restructuring of some of the routes Metra Feeder routes in particular. I'm aware of the Lake County TMA routes not returning, but none of the BSNF feeders, that crazy. I'm surprised that a few routes couldn't be salvaged and restructured to operate during peak hours. I'm sure everyone isn't working from home and more people have returned to the office. Is there something on play down the line as ridership increases?

I just went over the Pace Proposed 2022-2023 Budget and I believe that something called the Network Revitalization Initiative will be implemented to restructure or restore some of the suspended routes that are proposed to be discontinued permanently. I'm sure a draft of some kind will be presented at a future time on what and how service will be reintroduced, particularly the Metra Feeder routes.

[Busjack]

14 hours ago, renardo870 said:

I just went over the Pace Proposed 2022-2023 Budget and I believe that something called the Network Revitalization Initiative will be implemented to restructure or restore some of the suspended routes that are proposed to be discontinued permanently. I'm sure a draft of some kind will be presented at a future time on what and how service will be reintroduced, particularly the Metra Feeder routes.

My impression is that the network revitalization program is to get ridership back on the core system. There have been too many statements at board meetings that the feeders are dead, inefficient, won't be subsidized, can't be justified if people go back to the office only 3 days a week, etc.

[Tcmetro]

I don't know if it's considered "core" ridership, but adding evening and Sunday service would probably do wonders for usage of the Aurora, Elgin, Joliet, and Waukegan networks.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Tcmetro said:

I don't know if it's considered "core" ridership, but adding evening and Sunday service would probably do wonders for usage of the Aurora, Elgin, Joliet, and Waukegan networks.

I don't know if I agree with you.    I think the reason evening and Sunday service doesn't exist is because of low to no demand.  While it would be nice to have those as options, it doesn't make financial sense to run empty buses .  If the demand were there, there would be evening or Sunday service. 

I cringe when I hear some advocates crying for increased frequencies in places that have 60 minute frequencies.   The counter would be if the demand was there, there would be more frequent service .  

For example,  the SSM had higher frequencies when attached to the Howard service.   However,  most South sides opted for Dan Ryan L service and one seat rides along King Drive or Cottage Grove  rather than the SSM.   SO  CTA flipped the  SSM and Dan Ryan service to that the Dan Ryan Line connected to the Howard service and the SSM connected to the Lake Steve service    The new Red Line had ( has) higher frequencies than the Green Line.  Running more frequencies doesn't translate into more ridership 

[Tcmetro]

It's hard to measure demand for a service that doesn't operate. Providing a base level of service that doesn't abandon people for an entire day is a good policy to get people on board. Also, Pace runs plenty of routes that perform poorly, like the I-90 express buses.

 

[artthouwill]

17 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

It's hard to measure demand for a service that doesn't operate. Providing a base level of service that doesn't abandon people for an entire day is a good policy to get people on board. Also, Pace runs plenty of routes that perform poorly, like the I-90 express buses.

 

If someone is willing to fund the service, that's fine.   At some point,  either the i 90 service will continue to get funded or it will see a scale back. 

If Pace wants to do a pilot for 6 months to a year, that's fine also.   

There are a lot of transit agencies that don't run Sunday service    Even CTA has routes that have no weekend service ( 24 Wentworth) and some with no Sunday service ( 59 59th/61st).  Both routes at one time ran on Sundays,  but it doesn't make sense to run empty buses.  If no one rides on Sundays,  cut the Sunday service. 

[Tcmetro]

There is a difference between routes that are within walking distance of other routes not providing full-week service and the 2nd (Aurora), 3rd (Joliet), and 6th (Elgin) largest cities in the state lacking buses on Sundays.

[artthouwill]

26 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

There is a difference between routes that are within walking distance of other routes not providing full-week service and the 2nd (Aurora), 3rd (Joliet), and 6th (Elgin) largest cities in the state lacking buses on Sundays.

In principle I get what you are saying.  In reality, if those places really wanted Sunday service,  they would have it.  Pace does a great job listening to customers and addressing their concerns. Obviously the lack of Sunday service isn't a concern nor has been a concern for many years. While I am sure there might be some who would like it, there's not enough support for them to consider it. 

[Busjack]

27 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

There is a difference between routes that are within walking distance of other routes not providing full-week service and the 2nd (Aurora), 3rd (Joliet), and 6th (Elgin) largest cities in the state lacking buses on Sundays.

Considering how the last Aurora restructuring severely cut back service within the city of Aurora, without much protest, and especially on the east side, there couldn't have been much demand there, for much of any service.

If there were any need for Sunday service, the politicians would be demanding it. Kane County's director is asking for flex bus for Fermi Lab, not Sunday service.

[MetroShadow]

4 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

I don't know if it's considered "core" ridership, but adding evening and Sunday service would probably do wonders for usage of the Aurora, Elgin, Joliet, and Waukegan networks.

While not "core," it would be an improvement. The problems are (1) funding, (2) demand, and (3) car-centric suburbs and exurbs that politicians and boards don't really call for demand. Plus (depending on the route and garage), may require labor approval. 

Same with Springfield, which, even for their Seamless Network with the county, doesn't have Sunday Service (and that's always bothered me). Champaign and DeKalb (almost similar network and populations, although in college towns, have Sunday service.

I could be wrong and that the restructuring could bring Sunday Service to the Satellites not in North territory, but at the same time, I worry if ridership hasn't improved, you (meaning Pace) might as well try something and be innovative.

Edited September 27, 2022 by MetroShadow

[artthouwill]

10 minutes ago, MetroShadow said:

While not "core," it would be an improvement. The problems are (1) funding, (2) demand, and (3) car-centric suburbs and exurbs that politicians and boards don't really call for demand. Plus (depending on the route and garage), may require labor approval. 

Same with Springfield, which, even for their Seamless Network with the county, doesn't have Sunday Service (and that's always bothered me). Champaign and DeKalb (almost similar network and populations, although in college towns, have Sunday service.

I could be wrong and that the restructuring could bring Sunday Service to the Satellites not in North territory, but at the same time, I worry if ridership hasn't improved, you (meaning Pace) might as well try something and be innovative.

In regards to the college towns student fees pay for the service.  So in essence,  the service is funded, therefore Sunday service is justified 

[Busjack]

On 9/27/2022 at 2:18 PM, artthouwill said:

At some point,  either the i 90 service will continue to get funded or it will see a scale back. 

610 isn't coming back because Sears and  AT&T are no longer in Hoffman Estates. I don't know about businesses along 616.

The rest I guess are as you said: once COVID and CMAQ money runs out, they'll br reassessed, but until then they will be trying to grow ridership.

[MetroShadow]

On 9/27/2022 at 2:24 PM, artthouwill said:

In regards to the college towns student fees pay for the service.  So in essence,  the service is funded, therefore Sunday service is justified 

Doesn't account for Springfield. 

[artthouwill]

9 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

Doesn't account for Springfield. 

I wasn't counting Springfield as a college town.  My comment was more specific to Champaign and DeKalb 

[Busjack]

Pace has stated, as clearly as possible, its position on suspended and reduced service being made permanent. The Network Revitalization Initiative is for the remaining network. This is also made clear on the Hearing Announcement:

Quote

Those suspended routes are proposed to be formally eliminated with the adoption of the 2023 budget, with the goal of reallocating that funding into more productive and useful services through next year’s bus route network revitalization initiative.

That work will create a plan for creating new service and modifying some existing service to better serve current commuter needs. “We understand that, for some, the routes as they existed in 2019 worked just fine, and change can be difficult. But our upcoming initiative involves a genuine effort to listen to the needs of riders, potential new riders, and other stakeholders to come up with services that work well for even greater numbers of people. At the end of that work, we hope our newly devised service options will carry more people and offer more options than those routes we propose to eliminate here,” said Executive Director Melinda Metzger.

 

[jajuan]

Well it seems as part of the new budget Pace budget for 2023 that's being proposed, they want to permanently knock off the rest of those 69 routes still suspended since 2020 instead of making any plans or attempts to bring them back. The story reporting this can be found here. The vote for the budget is November 6. Also proposed is following CTA's move and eliminating its 30 cent transfer fee and reducing the CTA/Pace 7 Day pass from $25 to $20. That would seem to eliminate the need for the CTA only 7 Day since it's already $20 and remaining that price per CTA's own budget proposal for 2023.

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, jajuan said:

Well it seems as part of the new budget Pace budget for 2023 that's being proposed, they want to permanently knock off the rest of those 69 routes still suspended since 2020 instead of making any plans or attempts to bring them back. The story reporting this can be found here. The vote for the budget is November 6. Also proposed is following CTA's move and eliminating its 30 cent transfer fee and reducing the CTA/Pace 7 Day pass from $25 to $20. That would seem to eliminate the need for the CTA only 7 Day since it's already $20 and remaining that price per CTA's own budget proposal for 2023.

November 6 is on a Sunday.   Could the vote be on November 16?

[Busjack]

6 hours ago, jajuan said:

Well it seems as part of the new budget Pace budget for 2023 that's being proposed, they want to permanently knock off the rest of those 69 routes still suspended since 2020 instead of making any plans or attempts to bring them back. The story reporting this can be found here. The vote for the budget is November 6. Also proposed is following CTA's move and eliminating its 30 cent transfer fee and reducing the CTA/Pace 7 Day pass from $25 to $20. That would seem to eliminate the need for the CTA only 7 Day since it's already $20 and remaining that price per CTA's own budget proposal for 2023.

For anyone who read the Pace budget or the Press Releases on pacebus.com, this isn't news. As usual, the original source is the best.

[jajuan]

5 hours ago, artthouwill said:

November 6 is on a Sunday.   Could the vote be on November 16?

Sorry misspoke there. It was late when I spotted this. ?They're expected to adopt the approved changes on the 6th.

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

For anyone who read the Pace budget or the Press Releases on pacebus.com, this isn't news. As usual, the original source is the best.

Eh it was late when I was glimpsing through the forum in a rare free moment and was having a partial fatigue related brain fog. So sue me. Sheesh. ? Either way, it finally puts to bed what to do with these routes, any questions of why others came came and these didn't and any lingering false hopes that they will based on or fueled by still seeing their route numbers displayed on Pace and CTA bus stop signs. Given observations of how other TAs have long since announced and out into effect their own COVID related reductions being made permanent, I actually had a feeling Pace was headed in this direction before they even made the announcement. 

[andrethebusman]

On 9/27/2022 at 1:05 PM, Busjack said:

Considering how the last Aurora restructuring severely cut back service within the city of Aurora, without much protest, and especially on the east side, there couldn't have been much demand there, for much of any service.

If there were any need for Sunday service, the politicians would be demanding it. Kane County's director is asking for flex bus for Fermi Lab, not Sunday service.

Aurora's problems started day pulse point was moved. Because some routes got longer, others shorter headways went from straight 30 to 25 and 35. Results were predictable.

 

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Aurora's problems started day pulse point was moved. Because some routes got longer, others shorter headways went from straight 30 to 25 and 35. Results were predictable.

 

There must have been problems before then, because the TC became less significant when Pace did away with the east side loops. Like NS, the main source of business must be school trips. See this topic, especially my reaction ("It looks from these proposals that most of the things they did 10 years ago didn't work. The circulators don't seem to have worked, and some have been replaced by Call and Rides. ... It also appears that they are seriously minimizing the Transit Center.")

No need to deal with revisionism.

[rotjohns]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

There must have been problems before then, because the TC became less significant when Pace did away with the east side loops. Like NS, the main source of business must be school trips. See this topic, especially my reaction ("It looks from these proposals that most of the things they did 10 years ago didn't work. The circulators don't seem to have worked, and some have been replaced by Call and Rides. ... It also appears that they are seriously minimizing the Transit Center.")

No need to deal with revisionism.

I'm not a numbers guy so I don't know, but is it possible that FV becomes obsolete in a few years and replaced by call and rides?  Outside of maybe 530, ridership just doesn't seem to be all that hot up there in general.  I was at the mall the other day and outside of the apartments going up that replaced Sears, the mall itself is pretty terrible.  Of course that follows the growing trend of anchor stores being replaced by condos/apartments, which could need service down the road.  

[Busjack]

32 minutes ago, rotjohns said:

I'm not a numbers guy so I don't know, but is it possible that FV becomes obsolete in a few years and replaced by call and rides?  Outside of maybe 530, ridership just doesn't seem to be all that hot up there in general.  I was at the mall the other day and outside of the apartments going up that replaced Sears, the mall itself is pretty terrible.  Of course that follows the growing trend of anchor stores being replaced by condos/apartments, which could need service down the road.  

You're probably heading in the right direction. Of course, you have to figure that FV is not just Aurora, but also routes like 714 and 722. But when the expanded Naperville-Aurora On Demand came up at the Board meeting, it appears that Director Schielke from Kane County properly concluded that the service area did not extend into Kane County, and said with such things as Fermilab and more senior housing, Kane needed more On Demand. There was also some talk about Bus on Shoulder on I-88 {but I would argue that BNSF and UP-W are close enough].

The other strange thing is that the Naperville-Aurora On Demand is operated by River Division, but that's the only one with that kind of experience (having also run the St. Charles-Geneva one).