NABIs Pulled from Service

[cta_44499_FG]

Also, probably

• Kruesi apologists trying to figure out how to spread the blame (they are already working on the ctatattler, under the name of "simple").
  
• Figuring out a story to tell the feds.
  

As far as trainman's comment, if the intent were to inspect the buses and get them back on the street, you would have seen at least a few back in service by now. Lack of evidence about that, combined with the report that the fareboxes were yanked would indicate the contrary conclusion. Of course, those who thought they had to get their pictures by summer (and why would you want pictures) were out maneuvered. In any event, I said that there was too much circumstantial evidence of CTA's intent for me to think that the purpose of the inspections is to get the buses back on the street.

I too can attest to the fareboxes being removed. All of the NABIs at North Park are now without fareboxes. Oddly enough though, and I'm not sure why but one of them (and I regret not getting the number) had some kind of hoist underneath the mid section just before the accordion, and some caution tape was strapped across the bus.

Not sure to the motive of this...

[sw4400]

I too can attest to the fareboxes being removed. All of the NABIs at North Park are now without fareboxes. Oddly enough though, and I'm not sure why but one of them (and I regret not getting the number) had some kind of hoist underneath the mid section just before the accordion, and some caution tape was strapped across the bus.

Not sure to the motive of this...

Any chance of you getting the number? And better still, a photo?

[mendenhall7504]

Hello all,

This is my first time using this site. I think this site is helpful to me knowing about

the info. i have read.

My question is:

Do any one know when the NABIs will be back in service, How many

buses have been inspected.

Thank You.

Mendenhall7504

[jajuan]

Hello all,

This is my first time using this site. I think this site is helpful to me knowing about

the info. i have read.

My question is:

Do any one know when the NABIs will be back in service, How many

buses have been inspected.

Thank You.

Mendenhall7504

With reports of fareboxes being removed from those that were assigned to North Park before all were pulled from service, the chances of ever coming back may possibly be slim. I'm not making a definite prediction but an inference based on possible evidence of fareboxes removed.

[T8H5307A]

I took a ride around 103rd garage Tuesday and some of the NABI's had their fareboxes removed and some still had them installed.

[cta5658]

when will the CTA Determine The Fate of the NABI's

[Busjack]

As noted throughout this thread, and the earlier one on "what's left," the consensus of opinion here is that they won't. One would like official word from the CTA, but you sure won't see a press release announcing that they are permanently pulled, now that the maximum passenger inconvenience is over. There might be a President's Report on the CTA site when he asks board permission to rubber stamp what he decided.* Other evidence would be if you see a bus on BusTracker, but with the fare boxes pulled, that's unlikely.

Hate to be cynical, but that's how things work in the Daley administration (of which the CTA is a de facto part).

____________

*Sort of similar to when the Block 37 station plan fell apart.

[geneking7320]

:(

I think it's hush-hush because the CTA knows deep down that they cut corners in terms of maintenance on these buses, so their case against NABI may be diluted as a result.

Care to expand on the maintenance corner cutting?

If this is systemic what is to stop similar problems from developing with the NF artic hybrids?

Gene King

[santran]

This afternoon many of the NABI's parked at NP have been taken elsewhere. At least around 15 have been moved as of 6pm. They were being driven to Lake Shore heading south.

[trainman8119]

This afternoon many of the NABI's parked at NP have been taken elsewhere. At least around 15 have been moved as of 6pm. They were being driven to Lake Shore heading south.

I saw 7575 on LSD on my way to work at 2pm, and there were 2 more (one 7600 one 7500) headed southbound on the Kennedy around Fullerton on my way home tonight around 8pm. 7575 was being driven by a regular uniformed operator and surprisingly displayed a run number (P903) signed NOT IN SERVICE.

[MTA Bus Orion V 104]

I have an idea,

They should replace the, with Orion VII NG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I_Fix9p31Q

(NOT MINE VIDEO)

By: PinePowerLI

I think the Chicago Transit Authority should order Orion VII NG but before that have them demo it then order ifsuccessful.

The the Orion VII NG can replace 60-LFW.

The NABI 60-LFW was taken out of service on February 19, 2009 and it's pending inspection,the CTA should just replace the NABI 60-LFW by the Orion VII NG.

I know They're already ordering and receiving a bunch of DE60LFs but still CTA can but Orion VII NG.

[jacksone44]

I have an idea,

They should replace the, with Orion VII NG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I_Fix9p31Q

(NOT MINE VIDEO)

By: PinePowerLI

I think the Chicago Transit Authority should order Orion VII NG but before that have them demo it then order ifsuccessful.

The the Orion VII NG can replace 60-LFW.

The NABI 60-LFW was taken out of service on February 19, 2009 and it's pending inspection,the CTA should just replace the NABI 60-LFW by the Orion VII NG.

I know They're already ordering and receiving a bunch of DE60LFs but still CTA can but Orion VII NG.

If you have a large transit agency such as the CTA, and you have 60ft buses taken out of service, help me understand why you would replace them with 40ft buses when you will be using these buses on the busiest routes? The Orion buses are nice, but makes no sense from a capacity and efficiency standpoint.

[Anonymous Guy]

If Chicago's looking for replacement, the immediate option that comes to mind is New Flyer.

There aren't really that many domestic 60 foot manufacturers around, and New Flyers tend to be the most reliable.

Then again, this contributes to the New Flyerization of the CTA.

The same seems to be happening here in Seattle.

[Busjack]

If Chicago's looking for replacement, the immediate option that comes to mind is New Flyer.....

There are the mystery options for 58, the stimulus money for 55 or da Mare announcing stimulus money for 52.

In effect, the leased 150 are replacing NABIs, even though the head of CPS said at the time that they were ordered for another reason.

Finally, there is the mystery contract for up to 900.

So, this is a very moot point.

[MT0851]

I have an idea,

They should replace the, with Orion VII NG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I_Fix9p31Q

(NOT MINE VIDEO)

By: PinePowerLI

I think the Chicago Transit Authority should order Orion VII NG but before that have them demo it then order ifsuccessful.

The the Orion VII NG can replace 60-LFW.

The NABI 60-LFW was taken out of service on February 19, 2009 and it's pending inspection,the CTA should just replace the NABI 60-LFW by the Orion VII NG.

I know They're already ordering and receiving a bunch of DE60LFs but still CTA can but Orion VII NG.

Foamer much?

I mean what a capital idea! Replace 60 footers with smaller, less efficient 40 footers. Introduce a completely new model to the CTA which will require millions in driver and mechanic training and new spare part stockpiling. Not to mention the 'great' reliability that comes with the Orion VII NG, look at Toronto's NGs for an example, which stay in the shops more than they get out on the road. Apparently NYC's aren't too high and mighty either.

That's the last thing the CTA needs.

[jacksone44]

Foamer much?

I mean what a capital idea! Replace 60 footers with smaller, less efficient 40 footers. Introduce a completely new model to the CTA which will require millions in driver and mechanic training and new spare part stockpiling. Not to mention the 'great' reliability that comes with the Orion VII NG, look at Toronto's NGs for an example, which stay in the shops more than they get out on the road. Apparently NYC's aren't too high and mighty either.

That's the last thing the CTA needs.

Amen.....:)

[rmadisonwi]

To be fair to the Orion VII, the problem TTC has is with the hybrid model, apparently due to the batteries failing.

The true test will be when their plain diesel Orion VII NGs come in, to see how those run. I'd also be curious to know how their newest hybrids (high 1600s) are running, which apparently have a different battery than the rest of the fleet.

[BusMaxx]

I have an idea,

They should replace the, with Orion VII NG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I_Fix9p31Q

(NOT MINE VIDEO)

By: PinePowerLI

I think the Chicago Transit Authority should order Orion VII NG but before that have them demo it then order ifsuccessful.

The the Orion VII NG can replace 60-LFW.

The NABI 60-LFW was taken out of service on February 19, 2009 and it's pending inspection,the CTA should just replace the NABI 60-LFW by the Orion VII NG.

I know They're already ordering and receiving a bunch of DE60LFs but still CTA can but Orion VII NG.

This is my first post on this Transit board, and I have been following this story, and its not a good situation for you in CTA-land. Hopefully, a solution to this porblem will be found swiftly.

Now, MTA BUS, you have submitted for approval elsewhere, the idea of replacing 60fts with 40 fts. It just wont work. Do you think that a 40 ft bus has the same capacity as a 60 ft bus?? A city here in Ontario had to replace 60fts with 40fts once, but the ratio of replacement was almost 2:1. Is it financially feasible, in this economy, to be using up that much money for replacement buses?? I would think that those funds would be better spent on expansion buses.

And, as was said before, standardization in the garages is key to keeping costs low, therefore, allowing more resources to be directed towards the actual service, and it enhancements.

Thats my two cents, and im lookin forward to exploring this discussion board. I have travelled to Chicago a few times, and was amazed with the transit servcies there.

[MT0851]

To be fair to the Orion VII, the problem TTC has is with the hybrid model, apparently due to the batteries failing.

The true test will be when their plain diesel Orion VII NGs come in, to see how those run. I'd also be curious to know how their newest hybrids (high 1600s) are running, which apparently have a different battery than the rest of the fleet.

The batteries have nothing to do with the breakdowns. The problem with the batteries is that they're not lasting nearly as long as they should. A lot of the breakdowns have nothing to do with the hybrid system. The diesel VII OGs break down a lot too.

There's a hole thread on the CPTDB's GTA sub-section about the NG breakdowns, there's already been many 16s spotted broken down. Also only 1684-89 have the new batteries, and they've been spotted broken down too.

http://www.cptdb.ca/index.php?showtopic=8069 There's the link to the thread, you must be a member to see it though.

A city here in Ontario had to replace 60fts with 40fts once, but the ratio of replacement was almost 2:1. Is it financially feasible, in this economy, to be using up that much money for replacement buses?? I would think that those funds would be better spent on expansion buses.

Haha, that would be Mississauga Transit who replaced the 21 1993 D60s with 35 D40LFs. It was the stupidest move Mississauga Transit has ever made and good'ol Mike Keating (Our fleet manager) knows it. Noticed that last year we replaced the 35 1997 D60LFs with 35 new D60LFRs. The city was planning on getting rid of all the artics (replacing the 35 97s with 58 40 footers and the 10 01s with 16 40 footers). However it proved to be a very stupid and costly move, as a result we're keeping artics.

We're scheduled to be getting 22 more artics later this year, so we'll be back at the same amount of artics that we had in 2005.

[MetroShadow]

Checked this out through the WBBM files: Did we intend on fleet expansion, or (as you look down below) does this mean a virtual replacement of the 7500's with the funds being offered?

[Busjack]

Checked this out through the WBBM files: Did we intend on fleet expansion, or (as you look down below) does this mean a virtual replacement of the 7500's with the funds being offered?

That story is consistent with all the "between the lines" stuff I have mentioned. 180 additional is a little less than the number I figured (225), but no one knows the price of a hybrid articulated bus these days. Of course, as frequently mentioned, various press reports variously mention that the stimulus plan will pay for 58, 55, or 52.

The buses received from the federal stimulus money can't be used to replace the NABIs, because of the FTA useful life regulations, but those from the lease or state capital bill certainly can, since federal money isn't involved.

I am becoming more convinced that the consultant's report is a "fig leaf" to cover the CTA's decision, which hasn't officially been made yet, since if the consultant found that some buses were safe to go out on the street, they would have. Supposedly, the last 50 were assembled under the watchful eyes of Frank's inspectors in Alabama (if you know what I mean ).

For those of you mentioning one source procurements, the statement "CTA officials have stated publicly that they will not purchases buses from NABI again" is the one definitive thing in the story.

[Anonymous Guy]

but no one knows the price of a hybrid articulated bus these days.

Here's a ballpark figure - when Seattle KCMetro originally ordered a fleet of DE60LFs from New Flyer, the pricing was about $645,000 per bus (reference: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/39742.pdf)

Last I remembered, CTA was only leasing its current fleet of New Flyer DE60LFs rather than purchasing them. That may come with a lesser pricetag. Then again, those numbers came from a 2006 report, so the figure does need to be adjusted for inflation, labor/part cost increases, etc.

[Busjack]

Here's a ballpark figure - when Seattle KCMetro originally ordered a fleet of DE60LFs from New Flyer, the pricing was about $645,000 per bus (reference: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/39742.pdf)

Last I remembered, CTA was only leasing its current fleet of New Flyer DE60LFs rather than purchasing them. That may come with a lesser pricetag. Then again, those numbers came from a 2006 report, so the figure does need to be adjusted for inflation, labor/part cost increases, etc.

The lease didn't affect what New Flyer was getting from them, just what CTA was paying Cerberus. When proposed in 2007, the head of CPS said that the price in the contract documents for then exercising the option was $860K but CTA was then getting 150 buses for $800K. Rodriguez's report (subsequent to my posting) indicates that the 58 buses are being purchased at about $845K each.

The "no one knows" basically is more of a reflection of various people in the Daley administration giving misleading information about how many buses are being purchased with so much money. Sometimes, working out those numbers exceeded $1 million.

They now are certainly more than $645K, but apparently NF is willing to deal to get some stimulus money.

The other big unknown is the price of the base order for the contract for up to 900, which CTA hasn't acknowledged yet, except to say that some buses will be purchased with $172 m from the capital bill.

BTW, your link is dead.

[sw4400]

When proposed in 2007, the head of CPS Former CTA President Ron Huberman said that the price in the contract documents for then exercising the option was $860K but CTA was then getting 150 buses for $800K. Rodriguez's report (subsequent to my posting) indicates that the 58 buses are being purchased at about $845K each.

BTW, how about we call him "Former CTA President Ron Huberman", huh? People who visit this site from other cities, perhaps countries, will think the head of the Chicago Public Schools is in charge of the Chicago Transit Authority(which he isn't, but your posts sure make like it look like the CPS Chief is).

[Anonymous Guy]

BTW, your link is dead.

Fixed. The closing parenthesis was added onto the link due to the forum's auto URL function.

Also, the $645k tag was the price for the 2003-2004 order KCMetro had made, so the jump in price is much more understandable.