New Eldorados?

[busfan2847]

Looking at Webwatch, at the moment, 2814, 2815, 2818, 2822, and 2824 are out at SW. Add to it 2825 which is not currently out and there are now 6 Eldos there. Most of them are on the 384 so that must be where there are the lighest amount of passengers. That means 2 things:

2817 out on 384 this morning

[Busjack]

But you have to wonder if some buses may have been shipped elsewhere?

Someone surmised (maybe it was you) that Orion VIs go back to West, and since North and Academy need 40 footers....

We'll have to wait and see (don't I say that frequently)?

[BusHunter]

Someone surmised (maybe it was you) that Orion VIs go back to West, and since North and Academy need 40 footers....

We'll have to wait and see (don't I say that frequently)?

Most likely #6052 - #6056 will go back to West. Those may have been loaners to begin with.

[rotjohns]

2817 out on 384 this morning

Wow, well that makes 7 of the potential 12 buses at SW.

[rotjohns]

Most likely #6052 - #6056 will go back to West. Those may have been loaners to begin with.

Don't forget 6057 is also at SW, which would make 7 buses. But looking at Webwatch, 6053 is back at West because it's on the 305 now. So maybe bushunter's prediction is correct, but as Busjack said, stay tuned.

By the way, it was mentioned before that 2665 and 2666 are nowhere to be found at NW and that goes for today too. Anybody know where they might have gone?

[Busjack]

Looking at Webwatch, at the moment, 2814, 2815, 2818, 2822, and 2824 are out at SW. Add to it 2825 which is not currently out and there are now 6 Eldos there. Most of them are on the 384 so that must be where there are the lighest amount of passengers.

Strange that after this on Monday, hardly any of them were out Wednesday and Thursday on WebWatch. I guess that only proves that at the moment, SW has too many buses.

[New Flyer]

2379 on the 381 today

[Busjack]

#2791 was on the #240 yesterday. (physical sighting) It may not be appearing on Webwatch yet, unless it just showed up....

Finally up on Webwatch

I guess that does it for NW (no Orion Is showing up on Webwatch). The only one from SW in the 2814-2825 range in SW that I haven't seen on Webwatch is 2821, so that SW should be about done, too. That would leave N and NS as still unaffected at the moment, but reports here indicate that there are 18 still to allocate.

[rotjohns]

Finally up on Webwatch

I guess that does it for NW (no Orion Is showing up on Webwatch). The only one from SW in the 2814-2825 range in SW that I haven't seen on Webwatch is 2821, so that SW should be about done, too. That would leave N and NS as still unaffected at the moment, but reports here indicate that there are 18 still to allocate.

I wonder if that means they moved 2315 or 2351 somewhere else or if they canned them altogether. And I'm still somewhat amazed that SW got as many El Dorados as they did. I expected at the most 5.

[Busjack]

Does McHenry have Eldos? After all, McHenry Does not appear on webwatch

Sorry, I didn't see it before.

McHenry County has 2696-2698. The last two were personal sightings. However, they were not on 806-806, which are run with paratransits (also personal sightings). For instance, I saw one of them with a blank destination sign on Route 14 in Cary. This, of course, is subject to my not being up there in over a year.

[PACE NORTHWEST]

All buses on the 250 and 208 are ElDorados today. It's a bit unusual.

[Busjack]

All buses on the 250 and 208 are ElDorados today. It's a bit unusual.

tcb in Morton Grove yesterday, I saw a couple on each route. Again it looked strange (apparently not unusual though) but looking though the windows, one on 250 had passengers, but all were seated. The 250 was sighted in the area also covered by 411, so the issue about confused passengers I noted with BusExpert might have arisen again.

Considering that they considered cutting Sunday 208 in the 2007 doomsday, I guess that should be expected.

[rotjohns]

tcb in Morton Grove yesterday, I saw a couple on each route. Again it looked strange (apparently not unusual though) but looking though the windows, one on 250 had passengers, but all were seated. The 250 was sighted in the area also covered by 411, so the issue about confused passengers I noted with BusExpert might have arisen again.

Considering that they considered cutting Sunday 208 in the 2007 doomsday, I guess that should be expected.

They are all out today too except for one, but I don't believe it won't stay as Eldos, it's probably an experiment. The holiday season is coming up and a lot of people will be heading to Woodfield Mall to shop on the 208 & to O'Hare on the 250. But I'm not surprised Eldos are out on Sundays, it's the slowest day of the week by far and with the exception of route 352, probably shouldn't have any buses bigger than the 6600s. They might even spread the Eldos amongst the 270 and 290 also starting on Sundays also. I bet you that's one of the big reasons why NW wanted the Eldos.

Also the fact that there are Eldos on these routes on the weekends may signal a bigger trend down the road. I have a suspicion that Pace is trying to test some of these routes for the number of passengers to determine if it may be time to think about cutting more weekend routes. Watching the news the other night, Pace is not hiking fares, but will look to eliminate poor producing routes as one of the biggest ways to stay on budget. As Busjack said, 208 was on the chopping block 3 years ago for Sundays & I wouldn't be surprised that more will be coming after the holidays.

[MetroShadow]

Also the fact that there are Eldos on these routes on the weekends may signal a bigger trend down the road. I have a suspicion that Pace is trying to test some of these routes for the number of passengers to determine if it may be time to think about cutting more weekend routes. Watching the news the other night, Pace is not hiking fares, but will look to eliminate poor producing routes as one of the biggest ways to stay on budget. As Busjack said, 208 was on the chopping block 3 years ago for Sundays & I wouldn't be surprised that more will be coming after the holidays.

If the route isn't on either the action or watch list, chances are it won't be cut. Think also that the weakest trips within a route would probably be nixed first before any slash-and-burn procedures would need to be made. If the agency looks at a series of routes and if parts can be adjusted or salvaged first, then they'll make corrections and then slice and dice.

This might be a reflection of reallocating the larger buses on routes that might actually NEED the 40' buses. Weekends are a different story, since you don't need every bus out there.

[Zol87]

All buses on the 250 and 208 are ElDorados today. It's a bit unusual.

Yeah I saw some 208's near Old Orchard and the Skokie Courthouse this weekend. As for 250's I've seen some occasionally on Sundays near the Skokie Swift. I guess they use smaller buses now when there are less people traveling. I hope this doesn't mean that service is being eventually reduced.

[rotjohns]

If the route isn't on either the action or watch list, chances are it won't be cut. Think also that the weakest trips within a route would probably be nixed first before any slash-and-burn procedures would need to be made. If the agency looks at a series of routes and if parts can be adjusted or salvaged first, then they'll make corrections and then slice and dice.

This might be a reflection of reallocating the larger buses on routes that might actually NEED the 40' buses. Weekends are a different story, since you don't need every bus out there.

Which if this weekend was any indication at NW, the only routes that didn't have all Eldos are 270 and 290, but it has been known on both of those routes to have at least 1 El Dorado running even though they would have interlined from another route. It used to be unthinkable to have 30 or 35-footers on busy routes during rush hour. Now today, West routes for example are seeing more and more 6600s on their heavier routes and from what I hear and see, no problems with standing passengers. NW has been bold enough to have Eldos on 696, a route I use to ride on several years ago for work when older Orions dominated that route and had to stand on portions of my commute. Just seems like Pace is going downhill to me, but it's just my observation.

[Busjack]

... Just seems like Pace is going downhill to me, but it's just my observation.

One clarification and one observation, not necessarily on point:

• Since I don't see any Pace route by route productivity numbers, similar to CTA's, I use repeated appearances on the Public Hearing list as a proxy for poorly performing routes. I do not make a conclusion about what Pace would do, whether put 30 foot buses on them or cut them. For instance, 210 got its length cut and 30 foot buses, while the 422-423 interline was completely eliminated on Saturday. Conversely, at least at one time, Pace published their list of top 10 routes, and while I don't remember all of them, they included 352, 290, and 381 (they said at the time of the S-SW restructuring that 5 of the 10 were there).

• It is hard to tell if ridership is down. While the 2011 budget says that, it only indicates that for 2009 to 2011, it is projected flat at 32 million. However, going back a few years, say to 2007, while graphs indicated all Pace services (including the addition of city ADA), looking at the actual budget line items, it appears that suburban fixed route service (adding Pace owned carriers, municipal, and contractors) has consistently been about 32 million. So my conclusion is that by introducing 223 30 foot buses to the fleet, it may be more of an issue of "right sizing." For instance, while one hears that Waukegan needs big buses for school runs, apparently Joliet, Elgin, and Aurora can do without them.

[rotjohns]

Now the fact South would have 5 of the 10 top routes doesn't surprise me at all, especially 352, which I read somewhere is THE busiest route in all of Pace's system. Hence having Eldos at South wouldn't make too much sense. To be honest, South will in all likelihood be first in line to get a portion of the 96 40-footers coming in 2011 and beyond to replace the 2400s and I wouldn't be too surprised if SW also gets some; some of those Orions look kinda beat up. Far as the school runs, I guess it would depend on where as Busjack stated, but at some point, the Orions up in Waukegan are gonna have to go and I'm guessing the 2400s in Waukegan will be gone too within the next year. That's why I kinda wondered if some El Dorados might make their way to Waukegan either with this current batch or eventually when the new 40-footers come in. But if Waukegan needs 40-footers for school runs and route 565, the Orions can't last forever up there.

[rotjohns]

Riding past 1st Student Westmont today, spotted some additional El Dorados on its lot. In addition to 2793 & 2794, now there's 2802, 2804, 2809, & 2812. None of them are out as of yet, but considering NW stops at 2792 and SW starts at 2814 (no 2813 of course), I'm wondering if the rest of the them are coming to 1st Student and the Nabis could be on the move?

Also, FYI, 2701 runs routes 668 and 2699 & 2700 runs route 669. Looking at the 669 leaving Western Springs Metra at 6:10, only 3 people were on that bus. Not good.

[Busjack]

Riding past 1st Student Westmont today, spotted some additional El Dorados on its lot. In addition to 2793 & 2794, now there's 2802, 2804, 2809, & 2812. None of them are out as of yet, but considering NW stops at 2792 and SW starts at 2814 (no 2813 of course), I'm wondering if the rest of the them are coming to 1st Student and the Nabis could be on the move?

Also, FYI, 2701 runs routes 668 and 2699 & 2700 runs route 669. Looking at the 669 leaving Western Springs Metra at 6:10, only 3 people were on that bus. Not good.

Just ruminating in my head, but looking at the Lisle and Westmont contracts, that adds up to 21 buses, including spares, and if they get all of the range you indicate, that would be 20 buses.

That may explain why there has been no activity at North Shore, where, as I figure it, there are still 11 Orion Is waiting to be replaced. Maybe they figure that 15 ElDorados (2650-2664) are enough and North Shore needs something bigger.

Other than that, I count 1 Orion I at Academy and about 7 at North. However, supposedly they need 40 foot buses. Add to that any left in Naperville (up to 4).

Maybe if Pace 834 came back and told us about the paper work, we would have answers.

Thanks for the sighting.

[rotjohns]

Just ruminating in my head, but looking at the Lisle and Westmont contracts, that adds up to 21 buses, including spares, and if they get all of the range you indicate, that would be 20 buses.

That may explain why there has been no activity at North Shore, where, as I figure it, there are still 11 Orion Is waiting to be replaced. Maybe they figure that 15 ElDorados (2650-2664) are enough and North Shore needs something bigger.

Other than that, I count 1 Orion I at Academy and about 7 at North. However, supposedly they need 40 foot buses. Add to that any left in Naperville (up to 4).

Maybe if Pace 834 came back and told us about the paper work, we would have answers.

Thanks for the sighting.

No problem, I'll keep everyone informed as to any more El Dorados that show up. The big question is if Westmont/Lisle gets all the El Dorados, then where do all the Nabis go? Do they go West and send Orion VIs to North Shore or North? That's very unlikely, but with Pace, you never know. Maybe North Shore is waiting for the batch containing 96 40-footers to come in 2011. A very real possibility is sending the 6600s at Westmont/Lisle currently to North to take out all the 2400s up there and get in line with the few that's already there. The only issue is the 40-footers, but I suppose they could keep 2401 & 2421 for the time being along with their Orions or even bring in a couple from South. I think Academy will probably wait to see what happens to route 616 to determine 2290's fate as that bus should've been gone by now. Naperville is a hard call because where do they get newer buses from to replace their Orions, although we still don't officially know where 2665 and 2666 went and Naperville's current roster starts at 2667.

[Busjack]

I certainly don't see 2400s being taken out before the Orions. Hence, about 11 of the 6600s probably go to North Shore.

It is also somewhat surprising that with 209, 240, 241, and 616 on the agenda for last week's board meeting, Passenger Notices haven't gone up yet.

[rotjohns]

If I'm counting correctly, Westmont should have 18 Nabis, including all spares. So if all the El Dorados come in, that'll leave 2 additional spares. It won't be too long before the El Dorados begin service, they have the outdoor ads on the driver's side and back of 2 of their buses and 2794 does have a generic fare box inside of it. But they could be waiting until all the buses come in before sending them into service due to parking, which may mean the rest of them are still at South Holland.

[Busjack]

BTW, I took a quick cruise up the thread to see where we were right and wrong. I admit to be wrong about NS getting stimulus buses. There was also the guy who asked about Pace getting Orion VII NG, and apparently they will get two, but because of bidding, not that he knew. :blink:

[BusExpert32]

Just ruminating in my head, but looking at the Lisle and Westmont contracts, that adds up to 21 buses, including spares, and if they get all of the range you indicate, that would be 20 buses.

That may explain why there has been no activity at North Shore, where, as I figure it, there are still 11 Orion Is waiting to be replaced. Maybe they figure that 15 ElDorados (2650-2664) are enough and North Shore needs something bigger.

Other than that, I count 1 Orion I at Academy and about 7 at North. However, supposedly they need 40 foot buses. Add to that any left in Naperville (up to 4).

North Shore has 16 Eldos: 2650-2664, and 2704.

Also, 11 Orion Is at North Shore? I can account for 2278-2282, 2284, 2285, 2341, 2345, 2349, and 2350 still being there, but 2344 was still there a few weeks ago (maybe getting maintenance done the last few weeks) and I don't recall 2339 ever showing up on webwatch, so it's probably still there too.

I think there are more than 7 at North. 2328, 2332-2334, 2337, 2338, 2354, and 2368 are there for sure, and Railwaymodeler mentioned another unidentified until this point Orion I at North. So that would be 9.