2200-series - Updates (Retired)

[sw4400]

If the Red line started getting #5000's the second week of Nov. maybe with it's first #2600 transfer from #5000's maybe a month later, it's possible.

Not until the Dan Ryan project is done, as this Project page would attest(see the "Other Benefits" paragraph). Also remember that the Red Line north of Belmont is in the same deteriorated condition, track-wise and viaduct-wise(5000's weigh more than the 2600's currently in use). Why put newer and heavier stock on a partially shut down line(Dan Ryan) and a section undergoing rebuild(Howard to Belmont), when you can put brand new stock on it when the project is completed in Summer/Fall 2013*(5000's will still be delivered then).

Next line options for the 5000's after the Green are the following:

Brown, Orange, Yellow and Purple. Current stock from these lines could continue and/or finish off retirement of the 2200's and 2400's.

*=Red Line track and station rebuild from Howard to Belmont should be done by year's end, if not sooner.

[artthouwill]

Not until the Dan Ryan project is done, as this Project page would attest(see the "Other Benefits" paragraph). Also remember that the Red Line north of Belmont is in the same deteriorated condition, track-wise and viaduct-wise(5000's weigh more than the 2600's currently in use). Why put newer and heavier stock on a partially shut down line(Dan Ryan) and a section undergoing rebuild(Howard to Belmont), when you can put brand new stock on it when the project is completed in Summer/Fall 2013*(5000's will still be delivered then).

Next line options for the 5000's after the Green are the following:

Brown, Orange, Yellow and Purple. Current stock from these lines could continue and/or finish off retirement of the 2200's and 2400's.

*=Red Line track and station rebuild from Howard to Belmont should be done by year's end, if not sooner.

My understanding was that the Blue and the Brown Lines were not getting 5000s at all. That leaves Orange, Purple and Yellow. Which one would be next is anyone's guess. It coyld hinge on if/when ,CTA decides who/when the 3200s get overhauled. I think by the time the Green Line is completely.5000s, most of the 2200s should be already retired. The most logical place to pull 2600s from would be from Purple to complete the 2200 retirement. Thus Purple or Yellow would be my guess to get 5000s if the next goal is to start retiring 2400s. However, if the 3200,s overhaul becomes top priority, then Orange Line might be next in line. Remember that currently the 3200,s can train with the 2400s and the 2600s. Meanwhile CTA is going slow with the introduction of the new cars to the Green Line.

[See Tea Eh]

My understanding was that the Blue and the Brown Lines were not getting 5000s at all. That leaves Orange, Purple and Yellow. Which one would be next is anyone's guess. It coyld hinge on if/when ,CTA decides who/when the 3200s get overhauled. I think by the time the Green Line is completely.5000s, most of the 2200s should be already retired. The most logical place to pull 2600s from would be from Purple to complete the 2200 retirement. Thus Purple or Yellow would be my guess to get 5000s if the next goal is to start retiring 2400s. However, if the 3200,s overhaul becomes top priority, then Orange Line might be next in line. Remember that currently the 3200,s can train with the 2400s and the 2600s. Meanwhile CTA is going slow with the introduction of the new cars to the Green Line.

Who currently has what cars is not an indication of who will get them next. After all, first priority was to retire the 2200s, and so the first cars when to...the Pink Line (which had no 2200s), and then to the Green Line (which also had no 2200s, but whose 2400s went to Red to transfer 2600s to Blue).

If CTA wants to retire the 2400s next, they could send the 5000s to Orange, and send their 3200s up to Howard to retire the 2400s. There may be other factors at play, but it would make more sense, IMO, to send the 5000s to Orange rather than to Purple/Yellow. For one, Yellow doesn't require that many cars, so you'd have a very small fleet up there. Second, Purple's cars spend a lot of time sitting since the Express extension is rush-hours only. I don't have exact numbers, but running more frequent six-car trains from Linden to the Loop requires considerably more cars than running four-car trains less frequently from Linden to Howard. So, you'd wind up with a brand-new fleet that spent most of its time sitting idle rather than carrying passengers.

As for the refurbishment of the 3200s, other than having read that CTA wants it to happen, I haven't heard much else. I don't know if they've issued an RFP, let alone actually selected somebody to do the work (the latter, I'm almost certain they have not). Once they did, (even if done in-house, which I doubt they would, they'd still have to do the same to get vendors to supply the new parts) it would almost certainly take that a while to get things in order so they could commence with the work. That's very unlikely to happen before the Green Line finishes receiving its cars this fall. Therefore, don't expect the follow-on batch of 5000s, regardless of where they wind up, to have anything to do with rehabbing the 32s.

[jajuan]

My understanding was that the Blue and the Brown Lines were not getting 5000s at all. That leaves Orange, Purple and Yellow. Which one would be next is anyone's guess. It coyld hinge on if/when ,CTA decides who/when the 3200s get overhauled. I think by the time the Green Line is completely.5000s, most of the 2200s should be already retired. The most logical place to pull 2600s from would be from Purple to complete the 2200 retirement. Thus Purple or Yellow would be my guess to get 5000s if the next goal is to start retiring 2400s. However, if the 3200,s overhaul becomes top priority, then Orange Line might be next in line. Remember that currently the 3200,s can train with the 2400s and the 2600s. Meanwhile CTA is going slow with the introduction of the new cars to the Green Line.

Well someone at CTA must have given Tracy Swartz, who does the "Going Public" page 4 Tuesday columns in the RedEye the wrong information because a recent columnn of hers about the 5000 series cars stated that the CTA plans to assign these cars to all their rail lines as the full 706 car order is delivered.

[eyetube21]

I went to 54th Avenue rail yard on the Pink Line, I noticed they're are 2200s, 2400s and 2600s there sitting. It's only one set of 2200s, couple of 2600s and a work train 2400s. I saw the 2600s read "Forest Park" on it. The 2200s were further back, but I can't see the car number on it. All the rest were 5000s. It's so strange.

[Busjack]

Press release on the color signs.

Update: Note that when you click on the link under the picture, the enlarged picture shows a dark border around the lettering (sort of similar as on the roll signs). So, the new signs must be pretty high res.

[jajuan]

I looked up Tracy Swartz on this site but I couldn't find any such article. Tuesday, July 17, correct? Can you help me?

http://www.redeyechicago.com/search/dispatcher.front?Query=tracy+swartz&target=adv_article

D.H.

No it was a column she did on July 9. And my mistake it wasn't an article she did exclusively about the 5000 series cars but one she did about why the Blue line was so packed in the morning. She made the reference in that article when she spoke of the Blue Line still having the 2200s in service or what she calls the 'cars with the accordion doors'. That's the point in her column where she mentioned how currently it's only the Green and Pink lines that have 5000s but the CTA eventually plans to have them assigned to the Blue Line and all CTA rail lines. Scan down to where she speaks on the Blue Line not having the proper infrastructure to support its increased ridership over four years without there being massive overcrowding and you'll see the 2200 and 5000 references.

[jajuan]

First, thanks for coming back with the correct date. To me there was something that didn't seem right. Going back to the original article I found it. The Red Eye writer "was firing off one from the hips"...there is no substantiation whatsoever in the article for her comment about 5000s arriving on the Blue line as some later date. And that is a problem when people speak without knowing.

"Yet, it's the Green and the Pink Line that are first seeing the new trains, which raise or lower to meet the platform height—making it easy for riders with disabilities and travelers with baggage to get on. Eventually, the cars will make their way to the Blue Line and all CTA lines."

So just who told her that...where did she get that information?? She doesn't say, so I would take it as baseless rumor.

Good operational practices would call for the 5000s to not be mixed with non-conforming equipment when the full fleet is operational. While they are being introduced and phased-in, yes. So a line or lines will have 2600s and or 3200s. The 5000s would not be on "all" lines to keep mechanical maintenance simplier. That doesn't take "rocket scientists" to make that call.

And the "drop dead" date for having 2200s off the system IS DECEMBER, 2012. I don't know if its the first or the last of the month. But a vice president told me this. I asked because I'm personally involved with a charter in the fall and the charter wants to use older cars IF THEY ARE AVAILABLE. So I needed to know and was told. Also cars may be not used in revenue service, but still be available. PCC cars still made a couple of revenue trips on the Skokie even after being "retired." And an FYI...there is no final word on the possibility of a "one last revenue trip" for the 2200s.

David Harrison

Hey you asked and I gave you the answer so your issue would be with Ms. Swartz on who at the CTA gave her her info. No one said they would miraculously be trained together with cars of a different model. There was just reference that they'd be ASSIGNED to the variously rail lines. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see there is the POSSIBILITY without them being trained with other cars. And I'm finding it amusing you're up in arms about who told Tracy Swartz her info for a news column just because you don't like the info given though you're quoting some unnamed CTA vice president here as stating the 2200s will be gone by around December which we're all presumably are just supposed to accept as factual. But we want to speak on unsubstantiated rumors right?

[sw4400]

With a line in need of 5000's coming up after the Green Line gets it's allotment and the Red Line under the knife until Summer/Fall 2013, another line will most likely be pegged for 5000's and based on this new setup of colored LEDs as indicated by the Press Release here, Brown and Purple float to the top as highly likely candidates for next choices. Brown is more heavily used and will utilize the 5000's more than the Purple, which is said by several on this board to leave them sit idle more often than not. Yes, the Orange Line could be next, but to fully test the new color LEDs, why not put them on lines where confusion could be common as both say "LOOP" at Belmont going south along the shared Brown/Purple tracks. Not a lot of lines say "MIDWAY" with a little airplane image next to it... you'd have to be totally stupid to not realize that is a Orange Line train.

[See Tea Eh]

I'm through with it. I'm watching grillmasters and gettin' real hungry.

http://www.xkcd.com/1081/

[jajuan]

Please, what is wrong with you people? Ain't nobody up in arms. I said thank you to you for coming back with the info. I know 5000s cannot be trained with other cars. I was a motorman if you didn't know. I'm retired. But I still keep in touch. Chill out!

No one is up in arms...she said it, I saw the statement, there was no source, I'm through with it. I'm watching grillmasters and gettin' real hungry. Foaming about 'L' trains is not me. It was a job and now it is a hobby. Y'al need to chill out. This ain't life and death. You'd never see me worrying about what number cars are running on what train. There's more to life.

And about your snide remark about vice presidents...how many vps do you think the CTA has? Well one is in charge of the rail service and he is not unnamed.

DH

Frankly it's not all that important to me. As I stated if the info is rumor to you then that would be one you take up with the news reporter who initially gave it. Foaming is not something I do or I went into since I'm not the person who went into this long winded brouhaha about where a reporter got her info. And I actually don't care how many transit VPs you know other than making my point of folks come on here to give opinions on transit issues of the day and even learn a few things along the way, but instead increasingly some wish to devolve into quibbles over sources of information while wishing their word taken as gold due to alleged getting of info from a transit bureaucrat. Now if you're not up in arms then that should be the end of it.

[jajuan]

True...person had no source..that is the end of it.

Next topic.

DH

Anyway on that note a good day to you.

[BusHunter]

Not until the Dan Ryan project is done, as this Project page would attest(see the "Other Benefits" paragraph). Also remember that the Red Line north of Belmont is in the same deteriorated condition, track-wise and viaduct-wise(5000's weigh more than the 2600's currently in use). Why put newer and heavier stock on a partially shut down line(Dan Ryan) and a section undergoing rebuild(Howard to Belmont), when you can put brand new stock on it when the project is completed in Summer/Fall 2013*(5000's will still be delivered then).

Next line options for the 5000's after the Green are the following:

Brown, Orange, Yellow and Purple. Current stock from these lines could continue and/or finish off retirement of the 2200's and 2400's.

*=Red Line track and station rebuild from Howard to Belmont should be done by year's end, if not sooner.

Why the Red line next? Maybe because that's what CTA has said. The north main bridges won't be an issue (for the most part) as most will be fixed by the end of the year. If they were an issue, they couldn't put them in service on the Purple either, and they would have a serious delivery issue (all use the same structure) The yellow only has room for 10 cars, and I doubt they'll be jumping on the Orange line this fast. The Brown and Blue are not scheduled to receive these cars. I really doubt they would want to alienate the Dan Ryan community with older cars. This way when they close the Dan Ryan line, they'll do it with the newest trains and buses in service. With the green line having a full set of #5000's, that gives about a 3/4 ratio of new cars on the south side elevated. BTW, I was thinking what will they do for roll signs for the Red line? Will they just put up a 63rd sign? (might be too confusing as trains go to Cottage/63rd also.) Make custom Ashland/63rd Red line signs for a soon to be half retired/stored fleet of #2600's? (easier done with programmable colorized LED #5000 signs, less old trains less headache) Or just add a label to the 63rd signs saying Ashland? (sounds really cheap, but they do it on bus stop/public information signs)

[Busjack]

...With the green line having a full set of #5000's, that gives about a 3/4 ratio of new cars on the south side elevated. BTW, I was thinking what will they do for roll signs for the Red line? Will they just put up a 63rd sign? (might be too confusing as trains go to Cottage/63rd also.) Make custom Ashland/63rd Red line signs for a soon to be half retired/stored fleet of #2600's? (easier done with programmable colorized LED #5000 signs, less old trains less headache) Or just add a label to the 63rd signs saying Ashland? (sounds really cheap, but they do it on bus stop/public information signs)

As we indicated, that depends on the timing of deliveries, and what they intend to do with the delivered 5000s pending reopening the Dan Ryan with the Red Line all 5000s according to Frosty the Claypool. Also, whether there will be a drop in car demand while the Dan Ryan is down, or everything from Howard is going to 63-Ashland. They did say that some Lake Green line trains would be cut back at the Loop, so there will definitely be less car demand on the Green Line.

There might just be enough 5000s that they could program a Red Ashland-63 sign (maybe they would only need Ashland, for the reason that there would only be one Ashland station on the Red Line, as opposed to 2 on the Green) and not go to the expense of making up too many temporary rollsigns. On the other hand, the weekend reports on the Pink Line signs probably indicates that they are not thinking that far in advance.

[Mr.cta85]

Why the Red line next? Maybe because that's what CTA has said. The north main bridges won't be an issue (for the most part) as most will be fixed by the end of the year. If they were an issue, they couldn't put them in service on the Purple either, and they would have a serious delivery issue (all use the same structure) The yellow only has room for 10 cars, and I doubt they'll be jumping on the Orange line this fast. The Brown and Blue are not scheduled to receive these cars. I really doubt they would want to alienate the Dan Ryan community with older cars. This way when they close the Dan Ryan line, they'll do it with the newest trains and buses in service. With the green line having a full set of #5000's, that gives about a 3/4 ratio of new cars on the south side elevated. BTW, I was thinking what will they do for roll signs for the Red line? Will they just put up a 63rd sign? (might be too confusing as trains go to Cottage/63rd also.) Make custom Ashland/63rd Red line signs for a soon to be half retired/stored fleet of #2600's? (easier done with programmable colorized LED #5000 signs, less old trains less headache) Or just add a label to the 63rd signs saying Ashland? (sounds really cheap, but they do it on bus stop/public information signs)

Well with the Dan Ryan branch of the Red Line being closed for next year my guess is they (coming out of Howard) would probably just have the Ashland/63 Green Line signs since its going there anyway and just have the operators tell the passengers this is a Red Line going to Aslhland/63. And the same thing coming out of Ashland/63 the trains wil have their Red Line Howard signs, it's really not complicated if they were to do it that way B)

[Busjack]

Well with the Dan Ryan branch of the Red Line being closed for next year my guess is they (coming out of Howard) would probably just have the Ashland/63 Green Line signs since its going there anyway and just have the operators tell the passengers this is a Red Line going to Aslhland/63. And the same thing coming out of Ashland/63 the trains wil have their Red Line Howard signs, it's really not complicated if they were to do it that way

That could happen, but they would have to load the Red Line cars with a Green Line set (apparently all sets have Howard). Again, maybe enough will be left over, but who knows?

[BusHunter]

That could happen, but they would have to load the Red Line cars with a Green Line set (apparently all sets have Howard). Again, maybe enough will be left over, but who knows?

They could always borrow #5000 cars off the existing lines (like Pink and some Green)and they may not need to change roll signs. But that may be a little controversial.

[Sam92]

That could happen, but they would have to load the Red Line cars with a Green Line set (apparently all sets have Howard). Again, maybe enough will be left over, but who knows?

Every Red Line car has green line signs already.As for as the 2400s that came from the purple line... I'm not sure

[Amtrak41]

Where are the 2200's being scrapped ?

[Busjack]

Where are the 2200's being scrapped ?

I guess you didn't read this message, and the one that followed it.

You gotta keep up.

[Busjack]

... rumored to be near Joliet, IL, is to stay off the Interstates....

Maybe you should read the links noted above too, unless Graham Garfield is rumor.

The scrap yard is at 27th and State in Chicago Heights. Hence why they went south on Halsted.

Of course, why they would be in Oak Lawn is another matter.

[Busjack]

Why would "Graham Garfield be a rumor"? He runs a credible website and contributes a great deal of knowledge. Some things you need to get past.

I wasn't saying anything about Garfield. I was saying something about you. You were the one who brought up rumor.

Get it?

Now, read the references, before you sneer again about the spelling of a controller.

[jajuan]

You still need to grow up and get over it.

Ok really? Are we going to start this up again? Can't we all get back to discussing transit without letting the discussion downgrade into arguments among one another? And no I'm not just referring to you.

[artthouwill]

Thank you Busjack, for supplying me the correct location. That facility is in a huge corrugated metal building, windowless, and over a block long and in the middle of nowhere. The workcrew had gone for the day and the plant manager is out of town for two weeks. I did get hints that scrapping stainless steel is more intensive then for other metals where the items are just ground up. Contractually, they must insure that the entire car and its parts are rendered only into scrap. I'm looking forward to a return visit later this month.

RE Oaklawn...I don't know the viaduct clearances, but Cicero Ave. would be a straight shot from Skokie. Cicero, 95th, Halsted would be a most-direct route to Chicago Heights

David Harrison

All of the viaducts through the described route are at least 14' tall. Cicero Ave and Halsted South of 95th are truck routes.

[Chicago13]

All of the viaducts through the described route are at least 14' tall. Cicero Ave and Halsted South of 95th are truck routes.

Skokie to Oak Lawn via Cicero wouldn't be possible. The viaducts on Cicero between Wilson and Montrose are only 13 ft. and Cicero is a pretty tight S curve through there.