CTA 'L' Rosters

[briman94]

Unless you want to get an ear full from control center!

I've seen plenty of brown lines with the wrong run number!  I bet it's easy to forget to change the manual run boxes though...there's really no excuse on a 5000  

[garmon757]

I'm sure it doesn't help the staff at Towers 12 and 18 if the wrong classification is shown.

 Absolutely not. 

[Pink Jazz]

I don't know if i would say the orange line is bloated. They had increased the brownage runs in recent picks where it used to be 5-6 runs now it's 7-8. 9 trains on the orange is an approximate figure as I've counted them. Most of the extras were in the morning, but now they do afternoon brownages, but the yard still has a few trains in it. So I would guess there's not as many afternoon brownages as morning ones. Red might be bloated, but maybe not that much. 384 are needed for service and they have 420 something cars, so that's just 40 spare cars. The bloatedness was mostly from #2600's at 98th. Now they are gone that fleet is more balanced. The green line would be my prime suspect in the bloated cars category. 130 cars with approximately 30-40 spares. It's obvious to me here they are doing this to keep the lines consolidated but they will have to do something with the orange line because it will be an anomaly starting in 2016.

So, by what you are saying, the Orange Line may need to use all three series of cars, is that correct?

[BusHunter]

So, by what you are saying, the Orange Line may need to use all three series of cars, is that correct?

During it's #5000 transition yes, but not once the 200 #2600 car scrap contract is fully executed. By that time the orange line is slated to have no #2600's, just the Blue line.

[Busjack]

During it's #5000 transition yes, but not once the 200 #2600 car scrap contract is fully executed. By that time the orange line is slated to have no #2600's, just the Blue line.

I don't see how you can say that either. Since the 7000s spec indicates that the base order is 400, and that is before the options for 256 to replace the 3200s, it looks like 400 2600s will be around, and I really doubt that the Blue Line needs 400 cars, especially given all the short turns at Jefferson Park and UIC, I noted a source for the 400 number, so if you have a source post it. In any event, claims that deliveries of 5000s to the Orange line have now proven false, just as I said based on the above numbers. Whether it gets anything second hand may be an open question.

 

In short, the prior two posts show a lot of unsupported assumption.

[BusHunter]

Well the blue line may not need 400 cars but 400 cars is what they'll maintain. At least they have a better excuse for higher count spares than the green line which has more than a third more spares, going by the ratio 30 spares per 100 cars.

Nothing has been proven false yet, as long as #2600's remain on the orange, they will need to retire soon. What will they be replaced with?

As far as proof, the channel 5 link from long ago mentions the orange line getting #5000's, plus only #2600's on the blue, plus there's a Facebook comment under the chicago "L" group that does state orange line #5000 cars will come, there's just no specific timeframe as of yet. This is from people that should know what they are talking about. Will they get 90 #5000's on the orange now? Maybe, maybe not. I think they plan on getting more #3200's out to the orange line, there's some at rehab, those are probably all going to orange, plus the orange #2600 car roster is inflated, so there's cuts that could be made there with no effect like the 6 cars disappearing last week.

Where will the #5000 cars come from we might ask? Well the green line is inflated, so there's roughly 20-25 cars they could use there, plus there's a good 6 cars on the pink, plus they have the 40 on the red, maybe they could spare 20, add that up and it's about 50 cars. Maybe they could spare some off the purple or just share the reserve fleet on the purple and red together, so maybe they could drum up 60 cars. they do have an extra set on the yellow as well. 

Probably if it was up to me, i would just make the pink line all #2600's and grab those #5000's for the orange. Then they could have a solid 90-100 fleet for the orange line and anytime they would need to transfer #2600's between the blue and pink, the connectors right there. So they could share cars more easily and since the pink line cars look the best due to the smallest fleet, they could have a rotating fleet with the blue line and help keep those old cars together. Plus there would be an extra few #5000 cars needed for whoever needs them on the green, red, purple or yellow. So they wouldn't be left bare bones. But bare bones is not too bad when you have an all new fleet. That's just my opinion.

[Busjack]

Well the blue line may not need 400 cars but 400 cars is what they'll maintain. At least they have a better excuse for higher count spares than the green line which has more than a third more spares, going by the ratio 30 spares per 100 cars.

Nothing has been proven false yet, as long as #2600's remain on the orange, they will need to retire soon. What will they be replaced with?

As far as proof, the channel 5 link from long ago mentions the orange line getting #5000's, plus only #2600's on the blue, plus there's a Facebook comment under the chicago "L" group that does state orange line #5000 cars will come, there's just no specific timeframe as of yet. This is from people that should know what they are talking about. ..

As to where, it is speculation. There is no indication that the Blue Line will maintain 400 cars, when it probably needs about 300 to operate. I'm basing that on chicago-l.org rosters, not updated after 2013, but based on assignments before much of any of the deliveries of 5000s, and assuming that the short turns have cut down the demand. Since you claim there is not bloat on the Red Line, and deliveries are done, that NBC5 report turns out to be wrong. I left open the possibility of getting some 5000s second hand, but otherwise the Facebook group is talking nonsense about some timeframe, as the timeframe is over.

15 cars from the Green Line is marginal, similar to the debate whether there are 270 or 280 junks being hoarded at FG. The bottom lines are that the hoarding of junk has not been explained, but if the car roster page is correct*:

• You have not explained where the Orange Line is going to get 122 5000s to replace the 2600s--or even 90 if that yard goes down to 160 cars.

__________

*Of course, I don't know where the Brown Line is storing 174 cars if the Kimball Yard capacity is something like 146.

 

 

[Pink Jazz]

As to where, it is speculation. There is no indication that the Blue Line will maintain 400 cars, when it probably needs about 300 to operate. I'm basing that on chicago-l.org rosters, not updated after 2013, but based on assignments before much of any of the deliveries of 5000s, and assuming that the short turns have cut down the demand. Since you claim there is not bloat on the Red Line, and deliveries are done, that NBC5 report turns out to be wrong. I left open the possibility of getting some 5000s second hand, but otherwise the Facebook group is talking nonsense about some timeframe, as the timeframe is over.

15 cars from the Green Line is marginal, similar to the debate whether there are 270 or 280 junks being hoarded at FG. The bottom lines are that the hoarding of junk has not been explained, but if the car roster page is correct*:

• You have not explained where the Orange Line is going to get 122 5000s to replace the 2600s--or even 90 if that yard goes down to 160 cars.

__________

*Of course, I don't know where the Brown Line is storing 174 cars if the Kimball Yard capacity is something like 146.

 

 

BH suggested getting them from the Pink Line and making the Pink Line all 2600-series, but I just don't see that happening.  The Orange Line will probably have to wait until the 7000-series cars, since there is not as much bloat as initially thought.  Why run incompatible equipment on the Orange Line when there is no need to?  And the scrapping contract is for UP TO 200 cars, not EXACTLY 200 cars.  And if more cars are scrapped, they will probably simply be some of the excess Blue Line cars.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Pink Jazz

[Busjack]

BH suggested getting them from the Pink Line and making the Pink Line all 2600-series, but I just don't see that happening. ...

In that it was said (at the time the front end welding was done) that the Pink Line shares the Green Line Harlem shop, you are correct that that's not likely.

[BusHunter]

As to where, it is speculation. There is no indication that the Blue Line will maintain 400 cars, when it probably needs about 300 to operate. I'm basing that on chicago-l.org rosters, not updated after 2013, but based on assignments before much of any of the deliveries of 5000s, and assuming that the short turns have cut down the demand. Since you claim there is not bloat on the Red Line, and deliveries are done, that NBC5 report turns out to be wrong. I left open the possibility of getting some 5000s second hand, but otherwise the Facebook group is talking nonsense about some timeframe, as the timeframe is over.

15 cars from the Green Line is marginal, similar to the debate whether there are 270 or 280 junks being hoarded at FG. The bottom lines are that the hoarding of junk has not been explained, but if the car roster page is correct*:

• You have not explained where the Orange Line is going to get 122 5000s to replace the 2600s--or even 90 if that yard goes down to 160 cars.

__________

*Of course, I don't know where the Brown Line is storing 174 cars if the Kimball Yard capacity is something like 146.

 

 

2013?? That was almost 3 years ago!! Was the forest park blue line a virtual parking lot with it's slow zones back then? Plus the Blue line has all 18 year old equipment. That doesn't entitle them to have more spares than most? It sure works for fg with all 13 and 14 year old equipment. Out at rosemont there's always a good 20 cars disabled and don't run at a whims notice. Forest Park has cars too.

So you think the Green can't run without less than 115 cars. Let's rewind the tape here, at one point the green line only had 98 cars and they were all #2400's!! So they are way overbloated.

So if we follow what you say, and blue line retires the #2600's remaining, (they sure didn't do that last week!!) then the orange line can't stand to retire much more if it plans to maintain #2600's. I guess someone must have been been on smokes when they put a orange line car card in a #5000 recently. When you add up the clues your story just doesn't jive. Wasn't it you that said the Red line #2600's would all retire? Well guess what they didn't. We'll have to see what happens but your probably wrong here.

[Busjack]

..

2013?? That was almost 3 years ago!! ....We'll have to see what happens but your probably wrong here.

So when was the NBC5 story?

I haven't been wrong yet, but you conveniently ignored the question I put in the bullet point, so try again:

• You have not explained where the Orange Line is going to get 122 5000s to replace the 2600s--or even 90 if that yard goes down to 160 cars.

30 cars from the Green Line doesn't answer that.

 

[BusHunter]

..

So when was the NBC5 story?

I haven't been wrong yet, but you conveniently ignored the question I put in the bullet point, so try again:

• You have not explained where the Orange Line is going to get 122 5000s to replace the 2600s--or even 90 if that yard goes down to 160 cars.

30 cars from the Green Line doesn't answer that.

 

What do mean you haven't been wrong??? If you read what I just said you said the Red line #2600's would retire. You wouldn't say that if you rode the Orange line!! Currently there are 520 #2600's still in service, so what happens now. According to you I guess the Blue line retires 120 cars leaving them 280. The orange line sure can't retire any.

Who said the orange line was getting 122 cars? Who said only the green line would provide cars? Why does the Red line need 5 spare 8 car trains? Why does the Green line need 5 spare 6 car green line trains? Why does the pink line need 2 extra sets of trains? Why does the purple line need 12 extra cars? You do realize that's about 90 cars extra. Add in a few more #3200's or make a few more runs serve the brown line as brownages and you have just filled in the gap you need. Your buddy Pcclcars has acknowledged that they only plan to get enough cars for Orange line basic service. That's not 122 cars. When the Orange line ran just #3200's that mean't as little as 80-86 cars. Now explain to me why that can't be done!!

CTA won't have to worry too much about the answer to your question, the implementation is so slow it will be 2019 by the time they get all the #5000's over and we'll have the #7000's by then.

[Busjack]

What do mean you haven't been wrong??? If you read what I just said you said the Red line #2600's would retire. You wouldn't say that if you rode the Orange line!! Currently there are 520 #2600's still in service, so what happens now. According to you I guess the Blue line retires 120 cars leaving them 280. The orange line sure can't retire any.

Who said the orange line was getting 122 cars? Who said only the green line would provide cars? Why does the Red line need 5 spare 8 car trains? Why does the Green line need 5 spare 6 car green line trains? Why does the pink line need 2 extra sets of trains? Why does the purple line need 12 extra cars? You do realize that's about 90 cars extra. Add in a few more #3200's or make a few more runs serve the brown line as brownages and you have just filled in the gap you need. Your buddy Pcclcars has acknowledged that they only plan to get enough cars for Orange line basic service. That's not 122 cars. When the Orange line ran just #3200's that mean't as little as 80-86 cars. Now explain to me why that can't be done!!

CTA won't have to worry too much about the answer to your question, the implementation is so slow it will be 2019 by the time they get all the #5000's over and we'll have the #7000's by then.

Thank you for evading again. You show that you know where the ? key is, but you didn't answer a simple question because you can't. I said where I got my numbers and the math behind them. Your math (if it exists) does not add up.

 

Try again:

• You have not explained where the Orange Line is going to get 122 5000s to replace the 2600s--or even 90 if that yard goes down to 160 cars.

And if you wonder what the source of the question is, read your post, which started it.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Busjack

[klabstep]

Ah, so the training run numbers actually match the line they're training for? I wasn't sure if they just plugged in whatever number was convenient for training sessions  

Training trains are not based on a run number of the line.  It would be the north side training train, the south side training train, the Midway or Kimball training train train.  What they do on the west section, I have no clue how they call the train on the road.  Why they use a run number is a mystery because for the sign Not In Service you do not need to enter a run number.  

[BusHunter]

Thank you for evading again. You show that you know where the ? key is, but you didn't answer a simple question because you can't. I said where I got my numbers and the math behind them. Your math (if it exists) does not add up.

 

Try again:

• You have not explained where the Orange Line is going to get 122 5000s to replace the 2600s--or even 90 if that yard goes down to 160 cars.

And if you wonder what the source of the question is, read your post, which started it.

Ok Busjack here's the link with the answer to your question. 

http://chitransit.org/topic/2849-cta-l-rosters/?do=findComment&comment=81065

I suggest you read it a few times and comprehend it because obviously you didn't the first or second time. I answered your questions, it's time for you to explain how the blue line's going to purge 120 cars or better yet how we are not going to retire anymore cars because it's up to 200 cars remember.  I guess according to you they will only execute 40 percent of the scrapping contract!! It seems I'm the only one proving anything, you haven't proved one thing you said. I'm waiting!!

 

[briman94]

Training trains are not based on a run number of the line.  It would be the north side training train, the south side training train, the Midway or Kimball training train train.  What they do on the west section, I have no clue how they call the train on the road.  Why they use a run number is a mystery because for the sign Not In Service you do not need to enter a run number.  

You have to log into a run for the 5000s to even consider moving, so they have to have a run number entered.

[Busjack]

Ok Busjack here's the link with the answer to your question. 

http://chitransit.org/topic/2849-cta-l-rosters/?do=findComment&comment=81065

....

 

No you didn't answer it, so that's the end of that. Just admit that your statement that all 2600s will be purged from the Orange Line before 7000s are received was in error, or at least had no foundation, and move on.

[klabstep]

You have to log into a run for the 5000s to even consider moving, so they have to have a run number entered.

No no no, you key it up, tap your card, and the train will move, watch a switchman take a train into a yard.

[BusHunter]

No you didn't answer it, so that's the end of that. Just admit that your statement that all 2600s will be purged from the Orange Line before 7000s are received was in error, or at least had no foundation, and move on.

You don't give me much credit do you? I've been putting up rosters for how long on this site? And i haven't learned anything? Some of the info/stats I provided have been courtesy of supervision, yet you still don't believe me. (shakes head) Another stat to throw out, when the purple line was all #2400's, they used to run with a fleet of 90 cars. Now that is 102. Back when the #3200's were not in rehab remember when the orange line only ran with 86 cars. Hmm what do they run with now.... 70 cars. That's 16 short. So if the 122 #2600 count is inflated and they got those 16 cars back, 80-86 is a realistic number of #5000's needed.

Now I could sit here and have a friendly debate over this forever, but the real question that needs to be asked is why are all the rail fleets inflated some to a lesser degree? I'm wondering if it may have to do with a teething process or they are just not comfortable to fully depend on the cars yet. When they do they will be able to do what I've mentioned.

[Busjack]

...

Now I could sit here and have a friendly debate over this forever, but the real question that needs to be asked is why are all the rail fleets inflated some to a lesser degree? I'm wondering if it may have to do with a teething process or they are just not comfortable to fully depend on the cars yet. When they do they will be able to do what I've mentioned.

That is the $120 million question. But if the debate is "teething problems" there are equipment problems shutting down the Orange Line at Western this morning, and it isn't 5000s.

 

You don't give me much credit do you? I've been putting up rosters for how long on this site? And i haven't learned anything? ...

 

But you still won't answer a simple question, so personally I don't care. Why you won't is beyond me.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Busjack

[BusHunter]

That is the $120 million question. But if the debate is "teething problems" there are equipment problems shutting down the Orange Line at Western this morning, and it isn't 5000s.

 

I don't know how we can really call it "teething problems" still. The Orange line was supposed to get in on the #5000's initially, that delay could also have to do with scheduling of the #2600's departure. If the departure schedule doesn't happen fully until next year, the cars need to be somewhere, they can't just say well skokie shops here is 200 cars, deal with it, because they don't have the space and part of the space is being used for the #3200 rehab, so that lessens the space more for decommissioning #2600's. And they really don't want too many non ac cars in the #5000 yards most likely if they can avoid it. So this may be the underlying reason more than they are uncomfortable.

As far as your question, CTA may answer it in 2016 for us because the 200 cars should be gone by the end of 2016, according to the budget, so the cracks will have to be filled and you will see what happens. You don't have to take my word for it.

On another note, I was out at Midway last night and #2811-12 have made there way out there, no car cards were in the cars designating the line they should be on, so I would assume that's a fresh transfer. I see Midway yard now has all new LED lamppost lighting. It makes it harder to see the cars and the area is more darker than usual.

[Busjack]

On the 2600 departure schedule, I would assume that Skokie shops not being accessible has something to do with that.

However, an "answer sometime next year" doesn't negate that the delivery schedule is over. Maybe it turns out like 74th which got maybe 30 1000s until there was a swap with maybe 4 other garages, but that's a swap and the cars for it have to come from somewhere. On the other hand, i have repeatedly suggested that the projected 2600s  retirement schedule so that 400 are still around until the 7000s start arriving leaves ample cars for both the Blue and Orange Lines.

[BusHunter]

Possibly. The blue line used to run with 344 cars when the #2200's were around so they could play with retiring 60 cars max. But that is as far as they could go and you have 60 more cars then to go on the contract so those #2600's have to come from somewhere else. So that negates your suggestion. It's like the buses, they are way overpopulated with buses once we get all the new buses things could tone down dramatically and fg might get 60 #1000's as if they blew in from the wind and that should retire the last 65 buses at fg.

[BusHunter]

I was told #2273-74 was what I saw at skokie shops right after the track was reopened in Skokie. (10/30/15) So they are gone from 61st. #2955-56 has migrated over to the orange and #3189-90 has went to the blue and I put up #2811-12 on the orange cause i saw it there. so that's your latest 'L" roster update.

[BusHunter]

#2600 cars are jumping around again. I spotted #2709-10 on the blue and someone told me #3181-82 has went to the blue as well.