2012 40'/60' Procurement

[MVTArider]

According to CTA, they WANT MTS to bid on the contract, so they are the ones that let it be known actually. Thats how this all came to be.

But what is there to test? An RTS is an RTS. Just in a low floor version. MTA tested out the low floor for a week and they loved it. Times, and things do change. MTA said they would never purchase another RTS in life when they canceled the Nova hybrid order. Now they will be accepting 90 new high floors, and 90 new low floors. Now that Orion is gone, Nova and New Flyer are the only qualified builders for many agencies that include MTA. This doesnt sit well with may agencies, and they are looking at MTS as a formidable competitor.

....

Now remember, most all this information is coming directly from CTA, and 98% of it I got straight from the horses mouth. As I said, this is going to be very interesting!

I just found it, but you beat me. The power of the administrator. Press Release.

And for the person who started this thread with a "gotcha," it looks like the long standing members of this group got it about right, and you didn't get a commission on this deal. As Judge Marilyn Milan says "so, sad, too bad."

Yes, how about MTS' reaction? *hears crickets chirping*

[qwantae]

My heart was kinda jumping when I found out that CTA decided to go with Nova for the 40' buses.

My heart was jumping also, I was praying that they will go for Nova's, I'm so glad it won the bid. :D

[ChicagoNova]

My heart was jumping also, I was praying that they will go for Nova's, I'm so glad it won the bid.

Me too man.

[Guest]

Im excited that CTA will continue operating a new generation of Novas. They are good,

well built buses!

[Busjack]

Subchat has some sales/demonstration videos via youtube, which shows off the Nova redesign interior and all of it's optional interior appointments. This will be similar to what arrives here. It does address the seating issues mentioned above as well as new innovations not seen in a transit bus.

That was interesting. Thanks.

There was some explanation why the rear seat was so high, and they said that the back window was optional, which again raises my question.

Also, I noted that while they still have the passenger seat between the driver's partition and wheel well, it was one longitudinal one, and there wasn't any indication of rear facing seats. As indicated in the home page story, with the more conventional engine placement, they may not need them.

Also, they indicate that they anticipated the Bus Tracker sign requirement, although, from the narration and watching some hockey last year, it probably is more for advertising viande fumé, bière Molson, or le bacon du dos.*

_________

*Update: Let me clarify that I actually saw the first two in Montreal. The last is sort of a McKenzie Brothers takeoff.

[BusHunter]

That was interesting. Thanks.

There was some explanation why the rear seat was so high, and they said that the back window was optional, which again raises my question.

Also, I noted that while they still have the passenger seat between the driver's partition and wheel well, it was one longitudinal one, and there wasn't any indication of rear facing seats. As indicated in the home page story, with the more conventional engine placement, they may not need them.

Also, they indicate that they anticipated the Bus Tracker sign requirement, although, from the narration and watching some hockey last year, it probably is more for advertising viande fumé, bière Molson, or le bacon du dos.

Yeah, that was wild how instead of a back door green exit light, there integrating it in the back panel by the exit door. (that's sounds like it's standard equipment) I think the guy said that it would be integrated with the stop requested sign. (so what it can turn red too)

I also like the idea of an optional clear covered roof hatch. It let's in natural light. The sign over the backdoor, do you think that could be made into an onboard Bustracker? The guy said in the demonstration that it's basically for premium advertising.

I also kind of like the way they pushed the interior roof line up to give more interior space. But now the interior ad racks are facing down off the ceiling. I don't know if they would be harder to see. According to the video they state that that is supposed to increase the window size.

As far as the seating, I'm not a fan of those seats, those are hard on the derriere and uncomfortable. Hopefully CTA will use their own spec on that. The 2x2 seat behind the driver was dumb, that should've been a single longitudinal seat all along. Seems like they max out on seats by using the 2x2 seating as much as possible. But then that is a transit operators decision, but with the latest NF order that looks like the direction CTA wants to go.

Maybe these buses aren't so bad after all, but I would like to see a test drive. Youtube has some MTA videos and it looks like the takeoff speed is OK so maybe that has improved. Maybe CTA made the right decision. We shall see!! :lol:

[Busjack]

I also like the idea of an optional clear covered roof hatch. It let's in natural light. The sign over the backdoor, do you think that could be made into an onboard Bustracker? The guy said in the demonstration that it's basically for premium advertising.

That's what I implied, based on about 3:40, where he says "An LCD screen, backed up by a GPS system, can display passenger information or provide dynamic advertising space." Nova has its own GPS system, which CTA obviously not going to use, but the reference to GPS set off that bell.

I also kind of like the way they pushed the interior roof line up to give more interior space. But now the interior ad racks are facing down off the ceiling. I don't know if they would be harder to see. According to the video they state that that is supposed to increase the window size.

Given that L cars now have ad wraps on the interior ceilings, probably not such a big deal, especially to the passengers.

As far as the seating, I'm not a fan of those seats, those are hard on the derriere and uncomfortable. Hopefully CTA will use their own spec on that. The 2x2 seat behind the driver was dumb, that should've been a single longitudinal seat all along. Seems like they max out on seats by using the 2x2 seating as much as possible. But then that is a transit operators decision, but with the latest NF order that looks like the direction CTA wants to go.

It looks like the 4One Aries seats again. I could puke over the lime, but, exactly for that reason, we know CTA will be using its own specified fabric. As I noted from the Q&A, someone asked if the spec was for American Seating or 4One, and CTA did not indicate a preference.

The standard bus spec calls for as many seats as possible, but obviously CTA waived that for the 4150s.

[sw4400]

Here's a possible audio preview of what the new NOVA LFS might sound like from the interior(granted this is a artic, so sound might be a bit different in a 40' versus a 60'), but except for the unknown transmission(this one is a ZF EcoLife 6 sp.), this model has a Cummins ISL9(EPA 10).

[sw4400]

I could puke over the lime, but, exactly for that reason, we know CTA will be using its own specified fabric.

The fabric will probably be the same one seen in the 4000's or 4150's. As far as the interior floors, they'll probably be blue like the 6400's, 1000's, 4000's and 4300's are. Whether they'll be smooth or ribbed, I don't know.

[jajuan]

Since we can now turn to speculation about the 60 foot bus component of the program, I found this video of a Nova artic's traction in the snow interesting.

At least it reminded me of a TV story (I guess now 9 years ago) about one NABI artic stuck in the snow on Michigan Ave. at Grant Park being pushed by another, not that I thought it was possible.

And I thought the bus was going to whack the car backing out of the driveway.

Et pardonnez mon français.

Impressive. I kept expecting to see the bus start slipping and sliding each time it got to a curve, despite the video being on NOVA's company website, but it kept trucking along just fine.

[jajuan]

According to the press release article cta said there will be no rear facing seats on the new order. "Nova Bus has made several changes to their LFS bus model since CTA’s original order over twelve years ago. Most significantly, an updated engine placement eliminates the awkward interior layout at the rear of the bus. Unlike the current Nova models, the new buses will not contain any rear-facing seats. CTA explicitly prohibited rear-facing seats during the procurement process".

Thank goodness. That's actually the one thing I could point to that I disliked about the current NOVAs. Other than that detail I thought they were good performing buses. Though it seems in recent years it seems some tweaks were made to the sequence in the gear shifting as they accelerate makes them sound somewhat off from how I remembered it from the model's earlier years at CTA. Kind of like how the remaining CTA fishbowls' gear sequence was off (but to a much larger degree) in their final year or two of service.

[jajuan]

They are horribly slow when you turn on the AC. Some of the older ones like at 77th and 74th are slower than the FG ones. The FG ones to me seem better maintained. Some FG operators have told me FG has the best day to day maintenance for Novas, at least that's the rumor. It's no wonder some went to 77th recently. If 40 foot Novas have this problem, I'd hate to see what the 60 footers do.

They only announced a deal for the 40 foot buses so far, not the artics. So the artics could be from somewhere else. So East was proven right only on the detail that the contracts could be split, but he's proven wrong Millenium getting any part of this deal as they're best chance probably would have been for the 40 foot buses, though in light of the NABI fiasco it was still a long shot even on that point. There's no way they get a deal to do artics when they don't even have a artic model that got past the drawing board and to a prototype stage.

[sw4400]

Impressive. I kept expecting to see the bus start slipping and sliding each time it got to a curve, despite the video being on NOVA's company website, but it kept trucking along just fine.

There was minor drifting on some turns, not "Oh my God, it's going to jacknife!", but very minor drifting. Another thing you gotta take into account is judging by the French LED text on the front display, this was filmed in Canada, where the drivers are very experienced with snow driving since their first big snows usually come around October. And most likely this LFS Artic was fitted with Winter tires, which have larger, deeper treads. CTA has All-Season tires on their buses all year round, which is generally why the New Flyer DE60LF's failed on Lake Shore Drive during the Blizzard of 2011, causing the blockage which shut it down stranding thousands for hours(Link to topic). New Flyer is also a transit bus company out of Canada as well, and like NOVA use Winter tires during the snowy season up there. Experienced drivers and proper tires can make a differece between a bus that can drive through reasonable amounts of snow(all buses have their limits regardless of tires fitted on and driver experience).

Here's a article comparing All-Season tires to Winter tires.

[jajuan]

There was minor drifting on some turns, not "Oh my God, it's going to jacknife!", but very minor drifting. Another thing you gotta take into account is judging by the French LED text on the front display, this was filmed in Canada, where the drivers are very experienced with snow driving since their first big snows usually come around October. And most likely this LFS Artic was fitted with Winter tires, which have larger, deeper treads. CTA has All-Season tires on their buses all year round, which is generally why the New Flyer DE60LF's failed on Lake Shore Drive during the Blizzard of 2011, causing the blockage which shut it down stranding thousands for hours(Link to topic). New Flyer is also a transit bus company out of Canada as well, and like NOVA use Winter tires during the snowy season up there. Experienced drivers and proper tires can make a differece between a bus that can drive through reasonable amounts of snow(all buses have their limits regardless of tires fitted on and driver experience).

Here's a article comparing All-Season tires to Winter tires.

Umm thanks for the technical lesson but I didn't need it as my half expecting the bus to slide had more to do with just being used to seeing it on Chicago streets than knowledge of what type of tires are used. :lol:

[BusHunter]

There was minor drifting on some turns, not "Oh my God, it's going to jacknife!", but very minor drifting. Another thing you gotta take into account is judging by the French LED text on the front display, this was filmed in Canada, where the drivers are very experienced with snow driving since their first big snows usually come around October. And most likely this LFS Artic was fitted with Winter tires, which have larger, deeper treads. CTA has All-Season tires on their buses all year round, which is generally why the New Flyer DE60LF's failed on Lake Shore Drive during the Blizzard of 2011, causing the blockage which shut it down stranding thousands for hours(Link to topic). New Flyer is also a transit bus company out of Canada as well, and like NOVA use Winter tires during the snowy season up there. Experienced drivers and proper tires can make a differece between a bus that can drive through reasonable amounts of snow(all buses have their limits regardless of tires fitted on and driver experience).

Here's a article comparing All-Season tires to Winter tires.

You have to take into account also there was no ice just snow in the melting phase, let's see how it performs in the brutal cold. Ice which can get compacted with snow and become an ice sheet, (like what you would typically see at stop signs) can be really hard for anyone to drive. But then this is on the company's website. Their not going to show you it in distress or you would buy something else. :P

[jajuan]

You have to take into account also there was no ice just snow in the melting phase, let's see how it performs in the brutal cold. Ice which can get compacted with snow and become an ice sheet, (like what you would typically see at stop signs) can be really hard for anyone to drive. But then this is on the company's website. Their not going to show you it in distress or you would buy something else.

Very true point. Also anyone from Chicago would probably have still half expected the bus to do some sliding even if it had been a 40 foot model due to conditions that you described.

[dann]

According to the press release article cta said there will be no rear facing seats on the new order. "Nova Bus has made several changes to their LFS bus model since CTA’s original order over twelve years ago. Most significantly, an updated engine placement eliminates the awkward interior layout at the rear of the bus. Unlike the current Nova models, the new buses will not contain any rear-facing seats. CTA explicitly prohibited rear-facing seats during the procurement process".

That is great news. Every time I sat in the rear-facing seat on a Nova, it reminded me of sitting in those rear-facing seats in the Ford LTD and Chevy Caprice wagons of the 80s when I was a kid. Sitting in those seats almost always made me dizzy. :o

[Busjack]

I don't think there is any point to dissecting tire and winter conditions.

I note that one could discount the video as staged in that an articulated bus was tooling around a residential area.

However, what I thought notable was that the bus could do it. I bet there weren't any videos by the old NABI company of its one ugly demonstrator articulated bus tooling around the streets of Budapest without jackknifing or failing to get traction.

[jajuan]

I don't think there is any point to dissecting tire and winter conditions.

I note that one could discount the video as staged in that an articulated bus was tooling around a residential area.

However, what I thought notable was that the bus could do it. I bet there weren't any videos by the old NABI company of its one ugly demonstrator articulated bus tooling around the streets of Budapest without jackknifing or failing to get traction.

Thank you. The fact that they were able to get an articulated bus to accomplish the feat of moving around a residential area in the snow without jackknifing is still a significant accomplishment.

[sw4400]

Thank you. The fact that they were able to get an articulated bus to accomplish the feat of moving around a residential area in the snow without jackknifing is still a significant accomplishment.

Put all-season tires on that bus in that video, and I can pretty much guarantee that NOVA wouldn't be making you "ooh and ahh" at it going through that residential street. If you were able to look at that demo bus parked, you would most likely see winter tires on it(we're talking Canada here, guys). Want an example of what I'm talking about... here you go...

BTW: Here's the law requiring snow tires in Quebec. CBC News article here

So again, you are looking at a NOVA LFS Artic with snow tires. In Chicago, snow tires are not required by law.

Here's an all-season vs. snow tire tread comparison and article

[See Tea Eh]

Just as info, a few weeks ago someone emailed me a photo of a couple of Nova artics jackknifed in Montreal in heavy snow.

About 10 or so years ago, there was also an incident where a bunch of D60LFs were all stuck jackknifed in an intersection in Ottawa.

The main problem, as I see it, is all of the low-floor artics are pushers (some of the high-floor artics had the engine in front of the artic joint, so the front end could pull the rear end). If the rear end can push but the front end can't steer, you wind up with trouble.

[sw4400]

Just as info, a few weeks ago someone emailed me a photo of a couple of Nova artics jackknifed in Montreal in heavy snow.

About 10 or so years ago, there was also an incident where a bunch of D60LFs were all stuck jackknifed in an intersection in Ottawa.

The main problem, as I see it, is all of the low-floor artics are pushers (some of the high-floor artics had the engine in front of the artic joint, so the front end could pull the rear end). If the rear end can push but the front end can't steer, you wind up with trouble.

Your point I understand... NO bus... be it a low-floor, high-floor, engine in front or engine in rear of artic joint will make it through deep enough snow and will jacknife and/or get stuck, whether it has winter tires or not. I'm sure the famously talked about 7000's and 7100's which many say had engines in the middle(I find it hard to believe because why in God's name did they have hood covers at the back?) had problems in the snow. What I don't understand is how some could seem to believe that the NOVA LFS artics are so amazing in the snow. First off, there is probably only two to three inches on the ground in that video, hardly much to spin out in. Secondly, they have snow tires... are they always going to work in snow? No, but they work much better than all-season tires, which is what the CTA has on it's buses year round.

Looking at a photo of 7107, can someone explain why there are heat vent outlets in the rear quarter panels if there is no engine in the back??? I think there is, otherwise why not have them near the engine that is supposed to be located in the front or the articulation joint?

cta7107.bmp

[Busjack]

I'm sure the famously talked about 7000's and 7100's which many say had engines in the middle(I find it hard to believe because why in God's name did they have hood covers at the back?)

They were high floor buses and the engine was under the floor of the front unit. In fact, there were several burned ones that exhibited that in the 78th and Perry Yard (IIRC, 7380 was one). One had a Quizno's toasted ad, which I thought was appropriate.

Whatever was behind the back cover was something else. What's behind the solid rear top door of a CTA 60 foot bus? Not the air conditioner.

See: I agree that I can't figure out how a pusher bus gets enough traction. I had said a long time ago that the ISE proposed series hybrid bus with electric motors on the middle and rear axles seemed to make more sense.

[geneking7320]

I think MAN high floor artics had an rear mounted auxiliary engine to handle the air-conditioning system.That might explain the vent

in the rear.

[sw4400]

They were high floor buses and the engine was under the floor of the front unit. In fact, there were several burned ones that exhibited that in the 78th and Perry Yard (IIRC, 7380 was one). One had a Quizno's toasted ad, which I thought was appropriate.

Whatever was behind the back cover was something else. What's behind the solid rear top door of a CTA 60 foot bus? Not the air conditioner.

See: I agree that I can't figure out how a pusher bus gets enough traction. I had said a long time ago that the ISE proposed series hybrid bus with electric motors on the middle and rear axles seemed to make more sense.

So this would be an engine fire?