2012 40'/60' Procurement

[MetroShadow]

No the 78 is notoriously late all the time. Every time I pass the stops between Montrose and Wilson along Clark Street on the 22, those stops always seem to have irate folks who've been standing at the stops for a while waiting on a 78 during the 78's service times. And each and every time, those folks are complaining about seeing 4 or 5 #22's passing by but still no #78.

Having lived in Uptown all of my life (and for a year in grad school), trying to get to and from the Blue Line has been a trial. Doesn't matter if you are coming from the HIP, Wright, Blue Line, Truman, or the Lakefront. Your wait isn't worth it. (and if I felt the need, I'd concede and take the 80, X80, or 81 because Montrose has been unreliable).

[jajuan]

NP does assign all artics to the 152 runs they do during L.T.H.S dismissals and Cubs games. The issue is they don't assign enough, more so with the L.T.H.S dismissals. They usually only have about four total assigned around 2:30p-3p until 4p(two westbound beginning from Artesian until Kedzie, maybe all the way to Cumberland. the other two start from I guess Kedzie most likely heading east to Lake Shore. The rest of the buses on the routes on Addison are typically 40' buses from FG and they are usually lined up where they get the bulk of the kids letting out.

e.g:

2:20p on a dismissal day

Eastbound @ Artesian

6757(due 7 min)

1261(due 13 min)

4135(due 18 min)

6777(due 25 min)

1230(due 30+ min)

4167(due 30+ min)

Westbound @ Artesian

1189(due 4 min)

6693(due 9 min)

4085(due 14 min)

6700(due 20 min)

6739(due 26 min)

4096(due 30+ min)

In these examples, 6757, 1261, 1189 and 6693 would essentially become sardine cans when they reach Artesian because of the extreme overcrowding of kids, while 4135 and 4085 will come along to pick up more dismissed kids around 2:35p-2:40p. The following 40' buses will suffer overcrowding until the next artics come to pick up more kids. This forces the bus operators to leave people at the curb at later bus stops who might need that bus to get to work or appointment on time because they are overcrowded. Leaving early for your job/appointment only helps so much, CTA has to do their part to avoid the sardine can buses. That's where additional artics on routes such as the ones mentioned above at Forest Glen could use them. Maybe not 24/7, but at least during peak times where these overcrowded buses occur.

Belmont is another story altogether. They need artics probably all day there or make an "A" "B" skip stop service like I mentioned above. 77A goes to Kimball picks up passengers at the Kimball Blue Line and heads back west/east on Belmont. 77B just heads west/east on Belmont with no detour to the Kimball Blue Line so the buses aren't as crowded.

I'm not sure how the splitting of the 77 would go over well with folks already having little trust of CTA as is with the whole December De-crowd cuts fiasco (remember your tirade over the 11 getting chopped south of the Western Brown Line?) and the late March cutbacks that came with little or no notice including the reduction of hours and/or frequency on the 48, 54A, 81W, 85A and 88, elimination of the 33, elimination of owl service on 151 and the scale back of the X98 to one trip per night. The March changes came after of course Claypool gave the impression that the concessions from the unions would stem any need for service cuts with the passage of the budget covering the current year. Then again he also said there wouldn't be any need for fare increases but we still got the first fare increase that's not an increase by way of increasing the cost of the unlimited ride passes and that surcharge to ride the Blue Line from O'Hare for passengers not employed by the airport or airlines and not using an unlimited ride pass. The second non-increase that really is an increase is of course the extra 75 cents to use the upcoming Ventra one ride tickets. And the skip stop scenario may hit a snag the heavy traffic that can hit Belmont.

[Busjack]

I'm not sure how the splitting of the 77 would go over well with folks already having little trust of CTA as is with the whole December De-crowd cuts fiasco ...

While it seems we are going off topic again, I don't think sw proposed anything that extreme. It only seemed to be that some buses serve the Blue Line stop and others don't. That may be consistent with the crowd reduction plan, but probably would confuse the bleep out of the passengers. I suppose the buses would need destination signs like NO BLUE LINE, like the NO STRATFORD ones misused on Pace 711.

Getting it back to subject, the question is whether the hoist or any other initiative will provide enough capacity to put artics in Chicago garage, to serve 77 and apparently 65 and 66, since it appears that FG isn't getting artics and NP has more than enough assigned to it.

[trainman8119]

While it seems we are going off topic again, I don't think sw proposed anything that extreme. It only seemed to be that some buses serve the Blue Line stop and others don't. That may be consistent with the crowd reduction plan, but probably would confuse the bleep out of the passengers. I suppose the buses would need destination signs like NO BLUE LINE, like the NO STRATFORD ones misused on Pace 711.

Getting it back to subject, the question is whether the hoist or any other initiative will provide enough capacity to put artics in Chicago garage, to serve 77 and apparently 65 and 66, since it appears that FG isn't getting artics and NP has more than enough assigned to it.

I know...we can have artics from 103 do the 77, since current planning just loves deadheads !!

[Sam92]

I know...we can have artics from 103 do the 77, since current planning just loves deadheads !!

While they're at it wrap some of the 4150's and have North Park run the Jeffrry Jump for a fair trade off :lol:

[Sam92]

I know...we can have artics from 103 do the 77, since current planning just loves deadheads !!

While they're at it wrap some of the 4150's and have North Park run the Jeffrry Jump for a fair trade off :lol:

[Busjack]

I know...we can have artics from 103 do the 77, since current planning just loves deadheads !!

Not unprecedented, as there were buses from 52nd Garage working LSD up to Irving Park (in the days of the 8600s).

[jajuan]

While it seems we are going off topic again, I don't think sw proposed anything that extreme. It only seemed to be that some buses serve the Blue Line stop and others don't. That may be consistent with the crowd reduction plan, but probably would confuse the bleep out of the passengers. I suppose the buses would need destination signs like NO BLUE LINE, like the NO STRATFORD ones misused on Pace 711.

Getting it back to subject, the question is whether the hoist or any other initiative will provide enough capacity to put artics in Chicago garage, to serve 77 and apparently 65 and 66, since it appears that FG isn't getting artics and NP has more than enough assigned to it.

I didn't say it was radical. My point is CTA management may need to rebuild some trust with the public in how it's handled the de-crowd initiative in its implementation first before considering that idea as an alternative to getting another garage ready to handle artics that could be assigned to that route since as pointed out by you, myself and others through various posts that North Park is overstacked in artics and everything can't be assigned there either as a main assignment or a supplement.

[Busjack]

It would be intriguing to see this blue tint in the NOVA order we're due to get next year. This would look nice in a bus interior as well with LED lighting.

No indication that anyone is going off the Standard Bus Spec of light gray with a black front. Nor that the Chief Rail Engineer has any voice in bus design.

In that case, we are dealing with 90s design instead of 70s.

Also, Emanuel has already previewed the seats, which aren't the 70s scoop ones. Different kind of Freedman-4One seat, but same colors as on approximately 1870 current buses.

[sw4400]

No indication that anyone is going off the Standard Bus Spec of light gray with a black front. Nor that the Chief Rail Engineer has any voice in bus design.

In that case, we are dealing with 90s design instead of 70s.

Also, Emanuel has already previewed the seats, which aren't the 70s scoop ones. Different kind of Freedman-4One seat, but same colors as on approximately 1870 current buses.

True, but there was no indication of changes to the color scheme of the 5000's as indicated until mentioned here. That, to me leaves the possibility that the NOVA LFS buses could be given the same powder blue/blue-gray interiors as the 5000's starting with 5269-5270. They did take the faux wood paneling off the 5000's when they first starting arriving, just like the current NOVA LFS interiors onward. So the possibility is there that the newer buses could get this interior coloring, and all future bus orders following.

We should be about 4-5 months from the pilot NOVA LFS from the new series(Number Series TBD)

I wonder whatever happened to the two New Flyer XE40LFR we were supposed to be getting this year...

[Busjack]

True, but there was no indication of changes to the color scheme of the 5000's as indicated until mentioned here. ...

Not true. I had cited the minutes of the pre-bid meeting for the 7000 in which the Chief Rail Engineer said that he did not want the dusky interiors of the 5000s. The only thing surprising is that he acted on that while the 5000s were still being built, despite my assuming to the contrary.

Besides that:

• It is still the case that the chief rail engineer has nothing to do with buses.
• As far as the side walls are concerned, pretty much all of the 1960s New Looks were that light blue. I don't think CTA is bringing back the green vinyl upholstered seats, though, and Huberman stood in front of a couple of seats that were not.

[sw4400]

Not true. I had cited the minutes of the pre-bid meeting for the 7000 in which the Chief Rail Engineer said that he did not want the dusky interiors of the 5000s. The only thing surprising is that he acted on that while the 5000s were still being built, despite my assuming to the contrary.

Besides that:

• It is still the case that the chief rail engineer has nothing to do with buses.

I didn't say the Chief Rail Engineer did, but who's to say the person in charge of designing the buses doesn't say "Hey, that powder blue looks good in those railcars. I think that it'll look great in a bus interior with LED lighting." So he goes to Claypool for his ok and gets the go ahead to proceed and change the interiors for the new buses that have yet to be built.

I said nothing here about seating being changed, just the color of the panels in the buses. Apparently, the person(s) changed their mind several times on the interiors of the New Flyers:

1000-1629: Florescent Lighting

1630-2029: Blue LED Lighting

4000-4149: Blue/White LED Lighting

4150-4207: LED Lighting different from their earlier counterparts(I could best describe it as green with the LED's being clearly visible)

Even Kevin said here that the 5000's are supposed to be changed to LED lighting. That would've never been done if not for the New Flyers first having them.

[Sam92]

I didn't say the Chief Rail Engineer did, but who's to say the person in charge of designing the buses doesn't say "Hey, that powder blue looks good in those railcars. I think that it'll look great in a bus interior with LED lighting." So he goes to Claypool for his ok and gets the go ahead to proceed and change the interiors for the new buses that have yet to be built.

I said nothing here about seating being changed, just the color of the panels in the buses. Apparently, the person(s) changed their mind several times on the interiors of the New Flyers:

1000-1629: Florescent Lighting

1630-2029: Blue LED Lighting

4000-4149: Green LED Lighting

4150-4207: LED Lighting different from their earlier counterparts

Even Kevin said here that the 5000's are supposed to be changed to LED lighting. That would've never been done if not for the New Flyers first having them.

4000-4149 have white/blue LED like 1630-2029

It's most of the 4150-4207 with the green LED'a similar to the blue ones in #1283. I personally think CTA should've stuck with the LED design from #4150-4207 and used them for the 4300's. The transparent look of those LED's seem a bit less harsh on the eyes.

[Busjack]

....

Even Kevin said here that the 5000's are supposed to be changed to LED lighting. That would've never been done if not for the New Flyers first having them.

The only reason anything and everything is being changed to LED lighting is that it is more energy efficient and does not involve the replacement and environmental hazards that florescents do.

[BusHunter]

I wonder whatever happened to the two New Flyer XE40LFR we were supposed to be getting this year...

Should be right around the corner, according to this article here http://www.fleetsandfuels.com/fuels/hybrids/2012/11/new-flyer-hybrids-for-nashville/ it sounds like once they fill the nashville order they will work on the CTA one. They were supposed to work on the nashville order first quarter 2013, with delivery in May 2013. They only say 2013 for the CTA delivery date so we should see them soon. It all depends on whether there were any delays for the Nashville order.

[Mr.cta85]

Shouldn't we be seeing a prototype nova bus soon? I remember the article saying something around the end of the year, well it's getting close to that time lol.

[sw4400]

Here's an audio preview of NOVA LFS Generation II, coming early 2014 to a CTA route near you(at least at some garages). The buses in the video are equipped with what should be the engine/transmission combo in our order...

• Engine: Cummins ISL9
• Transmission: ZF6AP1400B

[Busjack]

Here's an audio preview of NOVA LFS Generation II, coming early 2014 to a CTA route near you(at least at some garages). The buses in the video are equipped with what should be the engine/transmission combo in our order...

• Engine: Cummins ISL9
• Transmission: ZF6AP1400B

• If ZF for CTA, contradicts what you found on some other wiki that it wouldn't, apparently based on the answers to what seemed to be NF's questions that ZF didn't meet CTA specs.
• Illustrates that rear window is possible.
• Unless the audio has been amped up, sounds like a very noisy bus, especially with all the suspension crashing.

[sw4400]

• If ZF for CTA, contradicts what you found on some other wiki that it wouldn't, apparently based on the answers to what seemed to be NF's questions that ZF didn't meet CTA specs.
• Illustrates that rear window is possible.
• Unless the audio has been amped up, sounds like a very noisy bus, especially with all the suspension crashing.

The model may vary based on this one here. ZF didn't meet CTA specs in New Flyer's questions for whatever reason, but we don't even know what their questions were. If the CTA is trying to save $$ here and there, I think ZF might be a less expensive, tried and true reliable transmission manufacturer for the buses. I don't know prices, but I'm sure that Allison Transmissions like on the New Flyer D40LF, DE60LF and DE60LFR and D60LFR(1930-2029, 4000-4207 and possibly 4300-4399?*) are more expensive to pair with the Cummins ISL9. CTA, to my knowledge, never used Voith transmissions, probably due to cost and/or reliability. I'll agree that the bus does seem noisy, but that could just be a badly torn up street the bus was driving on, hence the crashing. I've been on New Flyers that do the same on bad stretches of city streets myself.

[Busjack]

The model may vary based on this one here. ZF didn't meet CTA specs in New Flyer's questions for whatever reason, but we don't even know what their questions were. ...

Those of us who downloaded the revised specs do.

[sw4400]

Prototype NOVA LFS Series II is a month out from first appearing... we'll know the fleet number at that time(I'm guessing either 8000 or 9000. They could go with 4400, but it would throw the whole "4000's for Hybrids and Artics" out of whack). What week do you think the bus will appear in Chicago for CTA brass to check it out, have a press conference and possibly debut at a garage or go around the system for a week or two?

• Week 1: 12/1-12/7
• Week 2: 12/8-12/14
• Week 3: 12/15-12/21
• Week 4: 12/22-12/28
• Remainder: 12/29-1/4/13

My pick... middle of the month... 12/15-12/21.

[BusHunter]

I don't know, in the last Nova bus delivery the first bus was here 12/6, so it's somewhere around there. Me personally I'm more interested in the Xcelsiors which should be coming the same month, they may actually have both buses out at the same time for the press conference or one may go in service (novas) before the other. It's probably going to be very difficult to catch a ride on a xcelsior being that they are electric. i remember the ballard buses were like that, There was alot of internal testing before they even ran in service. These are going to be similar. Hopefully they'll be around for longer than 3 years.

Thinking of the #5000's, they are now 5 cars away from half the cars being delivered.

[sw4400]

My biggest wonder if fleet number for them... If I had to break it down percent-wise and reason(s) why/why not...

• 8000(45% Chance)- This seems like the ideal number series for the NOVA LFS Series II
• 9000(35% Chance)- Close probability to 8000 being the next fleet number series, but I don't think CTA will go with this one... yet. Maybe if they do future orders that require the number block due to different manufacturer, model year, quantitiy, etc...
• 4400(10% Chance)- I don't really think this number series will be used as 4000-4207, 4300-4399 have been used for Hybrid Articulateds and Clean Diesel Articulateds. CTA pretty much wants the 4000 number block for Articulateds, I believe.
• 6000(10% Chance)- This block intrigues me, but to take a step back and have 6400-Series NOVA LFS replaced by 6000-Series NOVA LFS doesn't strike me as what the CTA would do here. Also, they would phase out 6400-6883 just to get 6000-6449*

*= At time of posting, only 300 NOVA LFS buses are on order, which would currently put the series at 6000-6299, but if they exercised the additional 150, then it would go to 6449.

It would be close, but it should be 8000 or 9000 for sure.

[MVTArider]

My biggest wonder if fleet number for them... If I had to break it down percent-wise and reason(s) why/why not...

• 8000(45% Chance)- This seems like the ideal number series for the NOVA LFS Series II
• 9000(35% Chance)- Close probability to 8000 being the next fleet number series, but I don't think CTA will go with this one... yet. Maybe if they do future orders that require the number block due to different manufacturer, model year, quantitiy, etc...
• 4400(10% Chance)- I don't really think this number series will be used as 4000-4207, 4300-4399 have been used for Hybrid Articulateds and Clean Diesel Articulateds. CTA pretty much wants the 4000 number block for Articulateds, I believe.
• 6000(10% Chance)- This block intrigues me, but to take a step back and have 6400-Series NOVA LFS replaced by 6000-Series NOVA LFS doesn't strike me as what the CTA would do here. Also, they would phase out 6400-6883 just to get 6000-6449*

*= At time of posting, only 300 NOVA LFS buses are on order, which would currently put the series at 6000-6299, but if they exercised the additional 150, then it would go to 6449.

It would be close, but it should be 8000 or 9000 for sure.

I'm thinking the 8000 series is also the likely candidate. One other possiblity I can think of however is 0001-0300 (0.5% chance?). I'm guessing CTA would save that 0-999 range for something special though, perhaps future small buses or "trolleys". With CTA politics you never know when someone might get a bee in their bonnet that they need neighborhood circulator routes or a downtown shuttle or something.

[jajuan]

Prototype NOVA LFS Series II is a month out from first appearing... we'll know the fleet number at that time(I'm guessing either 8000 or 9000. They could go with 4400, but it would throw the whole "4000's for Hybrids and Artics" out of whack). What week do you think the bus will appear in Chicago for CTA brass to check it out, have a press conference and possibly debut at a garage or go around the system for a week or two?

• Week 1: 12/1-12/7
• Week 2: 12/8-12/14
• Week 3: 12/15-12/21
• Week 4: 12/22-12/28
• Remainder: 12/29-1/4/13

My pick... middle of the month... 12/15-12/21.

Well buses numbered 4333 and up currently on the roster aren't hybrids, so your personal thought of them assigning fleet numbers based on the bus being a hybrid is already thrown out of whack already anyway. So I think they've already established that type of engine powering the bus has no basis on what digit a fleet number begins with or even how many digits will be in the fleet number. However, about the only thing we can say for sure is that the fact they're looking to get 300 buses with options to receive up to 450 would likely make a three digit fleet number unlikely. Heck, even the bus being a standard 40 foot bus or an articulated bus doesn't even have a basis regardless of all the current artics being 4xxx. After all the NABI artics' numbers began with a 7. As far as they're concerned, a fleet number is pretty much nothing more than a way for them to make an accounting of vehicles on hand to keep their service operations going. So we don't know and can't make any estimates on probabilities on what number blocks from which the fleet numbers will begin until we see an actual bus.