2012 40'/60' Procurement

[geneking7320]

Does anyone have an idea what type of front doors the new Novas will have?

It appears the latest iteration of the LFS has a front doorway as wide as that of the 64xx series.

I thought I had see a picture of a Nova having the same width doorway but one leave wider than the other.

Gene King

[sw4400]

Does anyone have an idea what type of front doors the new Novas will have?

It appears the latest iteration of the LFS has a front doorway as wide as that of the 64xx series.

I thought I had see a picture of a Nova having the same width doorway but one leave wider than the other.

Gene King

It looks about the same width, although it does appear slightly different from current NOVA LFS doors.

I know the image is of the NOVA Smart Bus, but the LFS has the same doors. I can't find a good enough image to showcase that, however.

[Busjack]

Nova Bus Press Release* is now up.

*Dated April 30.

As far as the doors, the release says it will have Vapor doors, so probably the same as just about any other bus.

[sw4400]

Nova Bus Press Release* is now up.

*Dated April 30.

As far as the doors, the release says it will have Vapor doors, so probably the same as just about any other bus.

These aren't regular NOVA LFS buses, but LFS Smart Buses.

[Busjack]

These aren't regular NOVA LFS buses, but LFS Smart Buses.

I don't think that they manufacture the Dumb Bus. And, as pointed out many times before, they aren't selling 2000 models.

[ChicagoNova]

These aren't regular NOVA LFS buses, but LFS Smart Buses.

I pretty much knew it was going to be the Smart Buses.

[sw4400]

I don't think that they manufacture the Dumb Bus. And, as pointed out many times before, they aren't selling 2000 models.

I pretty much knew it was going to be the Smart Buses.

When you hear it, it sounds like a unique, new model of NOVA LFS. I was thinking these were Hybrids or something, honestly, being that they're labeled NOVA LFS Smart Bus. Picture this in CTA livery... this is the new bus heading our way early 2014.

At least Smart Bus doesn't mean the same as Smart Car, otherwise, the Optimas would be big in comparison...

[Busjack]

...Picture this in CTA livery... this is the new bus heading our way early 2014.....

As I suggested before, maybe this in CTA livery. Now that they have the order, Nova might go for that.

[sw4400]

As I suggested before, maybe this in CTA livery. Now that they have the order, Nova might go for that.

This pic is a LFS Smart Bus. I think the CTA will stick with the Alcoa rims seen on the photo I linked... it keeps them all universal and they can reuse the Alcoa rims from the older NOVA LFS then if needed.

What those other rims are, I have no idea. They look more like fancy wheel covers.

[twyztdmynd]

I don't think that they manufacture the Dumb Bus. And, as pointed out many times before, they aren't selling 2000 models.

Dumb bus? Let me introduce you to the NABI 60-LFW

[RJL6000]

Dumb bus? Let me introduce you to the NABI 60-LFW

Only problem is that the 60-LFW is no longer in production. In fact, the longest-length LFW that's currently in production is only 40 feet.

[twyztdmynd]

Only problem is that the 60-LFW is no longer in production. In fact, the longest-length LFW that's currently in production is only 40 feet.

Was kind of a joke.

[geneking7320]

Nova Bus Press Release* is now up.

*Dated April 30.

As far as the doors, the release says it will have Vapor doors, so probably the same as just about any other bus.

I just took a quick look at Nova's website. The bus in the still picture (above the video) has front doors like I referred mentioned in my previous post. It appears as though the left leaf is half as wide as the right leaf.

[sw4400]

We're about midway through 2013. I wonder if NOVA has a LFS Prototype of our future fleet coming 2014 already built(at least shell and engine) and will start to work with CTA designers on how the seating and other amenities will be setup so by September or October, NOVA will have a functional Prototype to test at their facility in Plattsburgh before sending it to CTA in November or December of this year.

[Busjack]

....For CTA that seems like only Nova and for Pace Thor industries/Eldorado national. (Orion is out of the bidding now.) I wonder why Gillig doesn't get more contracts around here?

Speculation here...

CTA uses the format of the Standard Bus Procurement Guidelines. However, Nova had a number of "we kindly request"s denied but still won the contract. The price per bus turned out to be about $80K more than Pace is paying per bus for an Axess, though.

Therefore, the CTA standard must be using the format of the Guidelines, but something else as a matter of technical specifications. I doubt we have a bus engineer here to go through them with a fine tooth comb, and I'm sure not one.

On the Pace side, the Minnesota posters indicate that Gillig is more expensive than ElDorado National, but maybe by $10K.

[artthouwill]

Speculation here...

CTA uses the format of the Standard Bus Procurement Guidelines. However, Nova had a number of "we kindly request"s denied but still won the contract. The price per bus turned out to be about $80K more than Pace is paying per bus for an Axess, though.

Therefore, the CTA standard must be using the format of the Guidelines, but something else as a matter of technical specifications. I doubt we have a bus engineer here to go through them with a fine tooth comb, and I'm sure not one.

On the Pace side, the Minnesota posters indicate that Gillig is more expensive than ElDorado National, but maybe by $10K.

So what is the determining factor which gives one company the bid over another? It isn't price in CTA's case. I don't know if Eldorado National or Gillig bidded on the CTA contract, but what specs could CTA be requesting to shoot up the price? At least we know Pace has a history of going with the lowest bidder on a consistent basis.

[Busjack]

So what is the determining factor which gives one company the bid over another? It isn't price in CTA's case. I don't know if Eldorado National or Gillig bidded on the CTA contract, but what specs could CTA be requesting to shoot up the price? At least we know Pace has a history of going with the lowest bidder on a consistent basis.

The last statement goes without saying.

As I said, I'm not a bus engineer, but the requests presumably from Nova that were denied had to do with noise level, aisle width between wheel wells, type of lubricant drain plug, plastic fuel tank, colors of brake line and fuel tubes, other than wrap around turn signals, slide glide doors in the back as well as the front, and can't get the stipulated warranty from various part suppliers.

Various other alternatives got the answer "may submit with proposal."

[BusHunter]

Then there's the question, if they are using federal transit money to buy the buses, how can they select bidders that are higher than the lowest? (The feds are going along with this?) They can't select on the basis of "this is what we want, we like your product" or can they? Or are they manipulating the contract in such a way that they get what they want?

[Busjack]

Then there's the question, if they are using federal transit money to buy the buses, how can they select bidders that are higher than the lowest? (The feds are going along with this?) They can't select on the basis of "this is what we want, we like your product" or can they? Or are they manipulating the contract in such a way that they get what they want?

As long as it is a competitive bid, it apparently doesn't matter, in that apparently the money is based on a formula. The manipulation is questionable only if it gets to the extent CTA tried in the late 80s when the other assemblers contested a spec that seemed aimed at a MAN single source for the 4400s, and then they have to complain to the FTA.

For that matter, I don't recall anyone protesting LACMTD putting out a specification for composite 45 foot buses that only had one experienced bidder.

In any event, someone had posted earlier a San Francisco MUNI document about the federal bidding guidelines, including the advantages and disadvantages of soliciting bids, piggybacking a contract, and acquiring assignable options. That link is now dead, but a search indicates that the document is now here. Note that SF changes to the Minnesota specs added about $6 million to the contract.

[geneking7320]

The last statement goes without saying.

As I said, I'm not a bus engineer, but the requests presumably from Nova that were denied had to do with noise level, aisle width between wheel wells, type of lubricant drain plug, plastic fuel tank, colors of brake line and fuel tubes, other than wrap around turn signals, slide glide doors in the back as well as the front, and can't get the stipulated warranty from various part suppliers.

Various other alternatives got the answer "may submit with proposal."

Busjack's comment prompts a question:

Since the latest generation Nova's will have a more conventional engine layout, will the rear wheel wells be narrower and provide a wider aisle?

[jajuan]

Busjack's comment prompts a question:

Since the latest generation Nova's will have a more conventional engine layout, will the rear wheel wells be narrower and provide a wider aisle?

I'm not sure the engine layout has that much impact on aisle width. Americanas had a conventional engine layout but still had a narrow aisle down the entire length of the bus.

[artthouwill]

Busjack's comment prompts a question:

Since the latest generation Nova's will have a more conventional engine layout, will the rear wheel wells be narrower and provide a wider aisle?

Narrower aisles have to do with narrower buses. Back in the day, 40' buses were generally 102'" wide (GMC fishbowls RTS, etc). Now generally speaking, they are all about 96" wide. The seats really aren't getting narrower (though the butts that sit in them are getting wider), so that leaves the aisle as the space getting cut. Probably the reason behind the 4400 and 5300 series buses having bowling alley like seats on one side and 4 rows of one single forward facing seat on the other side to create more aisle space.

[BusHunter]

Subchat has some sales/demonstration videos via youtube, which shows off the Nova redesign interior and all of it's optional interior appointments. This will be similar to what arrives here. It does address the seating issues mentioned above as well as new innovations not seen in a transit bus.

I don't think the aisles will be any different than the present Novas, but you can see for yourself, just click the subchat link above that I quoted. There might be a little more room if they put the transverse seating on both sides like they did here, but there's still the two forward facing seats before the back door.

[Busjack]

Narrower aisles have to do with narrower buses. Back in the day, 40' buses were generally 102'" wide (GMC fishbowls RTS, etc). Now generally speaking, they are all about 96" wide. The seats really aren't getting narrower (though the butts that sit in them are getting wider), so that leaves the aisle as the space getting cut. Probably the reason behind the 4400 and 5300 series buses having bowling alley like seats on one side and 4 rows of one single forward facing seat on the other side to create more aisle space.

The opposite is true. Most low floor buses are 102" because of the space required to maneuver a wheelchair or scooter. The 96" bus was a rarity; either the Orion I or the CTA 4900s which were supposedly not accessible for that reason. If you go back to the Optimas, the reason they were purchased was that CTA said it needed a 96" bus to navigate Hyde Park, and basically the only one available was 99".

The New Flyer restyled specification is 102". The NovaBus LFS is 102".

The only 96" bus is the New Flyer Midi.

My comment about wheelchairs is that the concern probably is with the front wheel well, not the back, which is generally covered with longitudinal seats, regardless of the engine placement.

[jajuan]

The opposite is true. Most low floor buses are 102" because of the space required to maneuver a wheelchair or scooter. The 96" bus was a rarity; either the Orion I or the CTA 4900s which were supposedly not accessible for that reason. If you go back to the Optimas, the reason they were purchased was that CTA said it needed a 96" bus to navigate Hyde Park, and basically the only one available was 99".

The New Flyer restyled specification is 102". The NovaBus LFS is 102".

The only 96" bus is the New Flyer Midi.

My comment about wheelchairs is that the concern probably is with the front wheel well, not the back, which is generally covered with longitudinal seats, regardless of the engine placement.

Also going back to my Americana example, all Americanas as far as I know, except for those in Charlotte, NC which were 96", were 102" wide yet still had a narrow aisle. CTA's version anyway had a narrow aisle.