CTA Service Adjustments

[artthouwill]

Alright for all the questioning of whether 144 is a valid service I present a couple of photos representative of what this route carries in any given morning rush. These were taken Tuesday morning about 7:30 AM. Both were taken in the vicinity of Marine Drive and Irving Park, at Bittersweet and on the Drive just south of Irving Park to be exact. Both pretty much counters the claim that the 144 gets no ridership given all the seats were full and there were a significant number of standees. The bus in question was NF 1308.

Well it looks like if the crowd on the 148 is similar, then the 148 could see artics under the new CTA plan.

[jajuan]

Well it looks like if the crowd on the 148 is similar, then the 148 could see artics under the new CTA plan.

148 already has artics. It just has them in the afternoons because the afternoon crowds have been larger than the morning ones.

[CURRENTZ_09]

Alright for all the questioning of whether 144 is a valid service I present a couple of photos representative of what this route carries in any given morning rush. These were taken Tuesday morning about 7:30 AM. Both were taken in the vicinity of Marine Drive and Irving Park, at Bittersweet and on the Drive just south of Irving Park to be exact. Both pretty much counters the claim that the 144 gets no ridership given all the seats were full and there were a significant number of standees. The bus in question was NF 1308.

@jajuan good investigating reporting, i hope you continue this reporting for this story to provide support of saving some of these routes. I received the Pace schedules on the proposed pace routes that are slated to take over CTA services on selected segments

[Busjack]

... I received the Pace schedules on the proposed pace routes that are slated to take over CTA services on selected segments

As Kevin has pointed out in other contexts, they are available on the Web. No indication on the current 317 one that it is picking up the 17 trips.

But I hope you enjoy your collection, furnished by the sales taxpayers of Illinois.

[CURRENTZ_09]

As Kevin has pointed out in other contexts, they are available on the Web. No indication on the current 317 one that it is picking up the 17 trips.

But I hope you enjoy your collection, furnished by the sales taxpayers of Illinois.

For observations, not collections, these are good to observe and reference to time to time, please refrain from watching everything that i post and focus on the subject at hand.

[Busjack]

For observations, not collections, these are good to observe and reference to time to time, please refrain from watching everything that i post and focus on the subject at hand.

Which was????

[CURRENTZ_09]

Which was????

Everything on this topic. If it doesn't pertain to the topic, then please stop counter attacking every statement. I can take suggestions and opinions but when the comments become offensive and off topic, then i ask that you refrain from making statements. Any questions or concerns please feel free to inbox at anytime

[Busjack]

Everything on this topic. If it doesn't pertain to the topic, then please stop counter attacking every statement. I can take suggestions and opinions but when the comments become offensive and off topic, then i ask that you refrain from making statements. Any questions or concerns please feel free to inbox at anytime

So, if it is "everything in this topic," you interjected the point that somehow you procured a set of printed Pace schedules, which is about as tangential to this topic as anything I could conceive. You tell us how that really is related to anything CTA is doing.

What is relevant to this topic is that you took severe umbrage that I wasn't going to a meaningless meeting over something that did not impact me--yet you refused, after being asked several times--to state how the topics at this hearing or other you said I should have attended affected you. Hence, since you refused to answer, I conclude that they don't.

Hence, you are only an intermeddler, and aren't in any position to tell me what to post. Ask East New York.

[CURRENTZ_09]

So, if it is "everything in this topic," you interjected the point that somehow you procured a set of printed Pace schedules, which is about as tangential to this topic as anything I could conceive. You tell us how that really is related to anything CTA is doing.

What is relevant to this topic is that you took severe umbrage that I wasn't going to a meaningless meeting over something that did not impact me--yet you refused, after being asked several times--to state how the topics at this hearing or other you said I should have attended affected you. Hence, since you refused to answer, I conclude that they don't.

Hence, you are only an intermeddler, and aren't in any position to tell me what to post. Ask East New York.

@Busjack im done with this sidebar discussion

[artthouwill]

Snipping and sidebars aside, it would be interesting to see what Pace will do concerning Routes 270, 317, 349, and 353.

270/349- Will Pace revisit making all stops along the routes now that CTA won't be providing any local service? Could they wait to see what happens at the end of the 180 day experiment to see if the changes will be permanent or not before acting?

317 - Will Pace just pick up the slack? What happens if Pace does and CTA decides at the end of the experiment that it wants to reinstate the ooute? Not likely, but a possibility.

353 - This is the most interesting one in that CTA service is being ADDED as opposed to being cut. Will Pace remain unchanged in terms of its 1/4 mile bus stop spacing along King Drive, or will it adopt the 1/2 mile spacing?

Maybe these items will be addressed at the next Pace monthly meeting.

[Busjack]

Snipping and sidebars aside, it would be interesting to see what Pace will do concerning Routes 270, 317, 349, and 353.

270/349- Will Pace revisit making all stops along the routes now that CTA won't be providing any local service? Could they wait to see what happens at the end of the 180 day experiment to see if the changes will be permanent or not before acting?

I've indicated before that since Pace has made 270 Posted Stops Only and says it will be an ART project relatively soon, there is no reason for Pace to make 270 local in the city and, in effect, express in Niles.

The rest of them go back to my original point that this is not a Pace restructuring, and no one has posted any evidence that CTA has talked to Pace. If we believe what's behind the "Crowding Reduction Plan" graphic, CTA still has not posted maps for the routes (at least the ones that are supposed to get enhanced service) with only two business days before the hearing. I'm willing to stand corrected. However, the burden is on CTA.

[CURRENTZ_09]

Snipping and sidebars aside, it would be interesting to see what Pace will do concerning Routes 270, 317, 349, and 353.

270/349- Will Pace revisit making all stops along the routes now that CTA won't be providing any local service? Could they wait to see what happens at the end of the 180 day experiment to see if the changes will be permanent or not before acting?

317 - Will Pace just pick up the slack? What happens if Pace does and CTA decides at the end of the experiment that it wants to reinstate the ooute? Not likely, but a possibility.

353 - This is the most interesting one in that CTA service is being ADDED as opposed to being cut. Will Pace remain unchanged in terms of its 1/4 mile bus stop spacing along King Drive, or will it adopt the 1/2 mile spacing?

Maybe these items will be addressed at the next Pace monthly meeting.

Pace should automatically take over the 17/317, Pace really does all the heavy lifting. CTA may bring frequency but pace brings in the workload daily, so i.say Pace takeover the route

[mkohut]

Snipping and sidebars aside, it would be interesting to see what Pace will do concerning Routes 270, 317, 349, and 353.

270/349- Will Pace revisit making all stops along the routes now that CTA won't be providing any local service? Could they wait to see what happens at the end of the 180 day experiment to see if the changes will be permanent or not before acting?

317 - Will Pace just pick up the slack? What happens if Pace does and CTA decides at the end of the experiment that it wants to reinstate the ooute? Not likely, but a possibility.

353 - This is the most interesting one in that CTA service is being ADDED as opposed to being cut. Will Pace remain unchanged in terms of its 1/4 mile bus stop spacing along King Drive, or will it adopt the 1/2 mile spacing?

Maybe these items will be addressed at the next Pace monthly meeting.

You left out 423.Will Pace do extra runs

[BusExpert32]

Pace should automatically take over the 17/317, Pace really does all the heavy lifting. CTA may bring frequency but pace brings in the workload daily, so i.say Pace takeover the route

Route 317 doesn't operate during rush hour. Only CTA route 17 does.

[CURRENTZ_09]

Route 317 doesn't operate during rush hour. Only CTA route 17 does.

Im aware of that and also the increased frequency it brings during weekday rush periods only. The 317 should operate at all times, releasing CTA services to westchester over to Pace entirely. In fact, i wonder how this agreement became about?

[BusHunter]

According to what the CTATattler reports, all routes having a service frequency increase, (48 routes) will only have this during the rush periods only, which I don't understand. Non-rush service frequency is so bad, 20 minutes in most cases, it's not even worth using unless you have to. Since CTA has identified these 48 routes as overcrowded, it sounds like these routes are going to be the prime candidates for artics when CTA gets them. BTW, I was wondering if CTA has ever had a ridership increase or steady ridership after it has cut service. With gas prices so bad, and maybe getting worse, they actually have a good chance to do this, this time around. :lol:

[Busjack]

You left out 423.Will Pace do extra runs

Why should they? They barely want to cover it now (except school runs). Some people are getting on in The Glen, but not that many.

Update: They also canceled Sat. service in 2010.

[Busjack]

According to what the CTATattler reports, all routes having a service frequency increase, (48 routes) will only have this during the rush periods only, which I don't understand. Non-rush service frequency is so bad, 20 minutes in most cases, it's not even worth using unless you have to. Since CTA has identified these 48 routes as overcrowded, it sounds like these routes are going to be the prime candidates for artics when CTA gets them. BTW, I was wondering if CTA has ever had a ridership increase or steady ridership after it has cut service. With gas prices so bad, and maybe getting worse, they actually have a good chance to do this, this time around.

They claimed to have had increases the past couple of years but I'm sure there are people who will want to dissect the ridership reports line by line.

Undoubtedly, the real reason for any increase is that the recession might not be as bad as it once was and some people may have obtained jobs. On the other hand, it might also be the case (since only unlinked trips are being counted) that people are using their passes more intensively.

In any event, the 2010 cuts were not so much that there wasn't passenger demand, but that CTA (and to a certain extent Pace) didn't have the sales tax money to run them. Thus, they might be distinguishable from 1997.

Update: What's the source of your CTA Tattler reference? The only thing I see is the post of August 22, 2012 at 7:26 pm, which says "But of course, the devil is in the details -- and the execution." I don't see anything about "rush hour" (except my comment).

[busfan2847]

Im aware of that and also the increased frequency it brings during weekday rush periods only. The 317 should operate at all times, releasing CTA services to westchester over to Pace entirely. In fact, i wonder how this agreement became about?

The 17 was a direct replacement for the Des Plaines - Westchester L service when it was withdrawn in Dec 1951 and has always been operated by cta (in the early days the buses were garaged at the West Towns depot). At that time it was a 7day 24hour service. Owl service was withdrawn in 1976, weekend in 1992 and weekday off peak in 1998. Pace replaced the weekend and off peak service as 317.

The same thing happened in March 1952 when the Douglas Park branch was cut back from Oak Park to 54th/Cermak. cta introduced a 7 day 24 hour service 21B - West Cermak with buses again housed at West Towns depot until 1959. The service was only for passengers connecting to/from the Douglas Park branch at 54th/Cermak and was not numbered to begin with. Owl was withdrawn 1976, weekday off peak 1995, and Weekend and evening 1998. Route was replaced with 21 extension to Riverside Mall in 2006. In this case West Towns already provided service on Cermak (latter Pace 304, 322).

In both cases cta provided the service as it was a direct replacement for L service.

The History of the 17 Westchester I have is:-

New CTA Bus 12/9/51

Replaced Westchester extension of Garfield Park rapid transit line via Desplaines, Madison, 25th, Madison, Bellwood and Westchester, on Su diverted to Lake St ‘L’ (Garfield Park line closed Su west of Laramie from 12/9/51 to 9/23/53). From 9/23/53 Sunday service revised to Garfield Park Des Plaines station. From 6/22/58, Garfield Park line replaced by Congress line, utilizing median strip of Eisenhower Expressway, and continuing to terminate at Des Plaines Ave. in Forest Park. From 12/9/51 to 2/22/59, buses housed at West Towns Bus Co. garage at Cermak/Harlem. Shuttle service added to Maybrook Court House in Maywood starting 8/16/76. Owl service w 9/7/76. Late eve and Maybrook extension w 9/13/81. RH branches to Balmoral and Mannheim w 7/4/82. Weekend service w 2/2/92 and replaced by Pace 317. Reduced to weekday rush hours only 4/26/98, service during other periods now operated by Pace as route 317.

Bus Garage: West Towns Bus Co. (12/9/51-2/22/59), Lawndale (2/22/59-12/4/60), Kedzie (12/4/60-10/81), North Ave. (10/81-6/29/84), Kedzie (6/29/84-present)

[CURRENTZ_09]

Here's an article giving some insight on what riders could expect on Sunday December 16th, 2012 provided by the Northwestern Unversity Research Transportation Division.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/traffic/transit/The-CTA-Takes-a-Master-Class-From-Northwestern-Experts-167676385.html

[Busjack]

Here's an article giving some insight on what riders could expect on Sunday December 16th, 2012 provided by the Northwestern Unversity Research Transportation Division.

http://www.nbcchicag...-167676385.html

It doesn't mention that the professor or students talked to anyone at Pace (which was the first flaw mentioned in this thread, starting by BusHunter)

You have to wonder what the "fine tuning" promised at the end is to be.

[BusHunter]

Update: What's the source of your CTA Tattler reference? The only thing I see is the post of August 22, 2012 at 7:26 pm, which says "But of course, the devil is in the details -- and the execution." I don't see anything about "rush hour" (except my comment).

It's under a link in that same story with the devil in the details. For some reason the links not working. The url is chicagonow.com/cta-tattler/2012/08/details-on-cta-service-expansion-bus-routes-changes-and-eliminations/ if you want to look it up. Anyway he states that bus service will increase during peak periods, while he didn't say it wouldn't in non peak periods, I take it to mean only peak periods. Anyway most of the service there canceling is weekdays only so I doubt there's going to be weekend expansion unless they want to pay out more than there gaining by losing the other routes.

[CURRENTZ_09]

Thank you for the history lession but my question is what is the agreement between Pace & CTA on the operations of the 17/317.

The 17 was a direct replacement for the Des Plaines - Westchester L service when it was withdrawn in Dec 1951 and has always been operated by cta (in the early days the buses were garaged at the West Towns depot). At that time it was a 7day 24hour service. Owl service was withdrawn in 1976, weekend in 1992 and weekday off peak in 1998. Pace replaced the weekend and off peak service as 317.

The same thing happened in March 1952 when the Douglas Park branch was cut back from Oak Park to 54th/Cermak. cta introduced a 7 day 24 hour service 21B - West Cermak with buses again housed at West Towns depot until 1959. The service was only for passengers connecting to/from the Douglas Park branch at 54th/Cermak and was not numbered to begin with. Owl was withdrawn 1976, weekday off peak 1995, and Weekend and evening 1998. Route was replaced with 21 extension to Riverside Mall in 2006. In this case West Towns already provided service on Cermak (latter Pace 304, 322).

In both cases cta provided the service as it was a direct replacement for L service.

The History of the 17 Westchester I have is:-

New CTA Bus 12/9/51

Replaced Westchester extension of Garfield Park rapid transit line via Desplaines, Madison, 25th, Madison, Bellwood and Westchester, on Su diverted to Lake St ‘L’ (Garfield Park line closed Su west of Laramie from 12/9/51 to 9/23/53). From 9/23/53 Sunday service revised to Garfield Park Des Plaines station. From 6/22/58, Garfield Park line replaced by Congress line, utilizing median strip of Eisenhower Expressway, and continuing to terminate at Des Plaines Ave. in Forest Park. From 12/9/51 to 2/22/59, buses housed at West Towns Bus Co. garage at Cermak/Harlem. Shuttle service added to Maybrook Court House in Maywood starting 8/16/76. Owl service w 9/7/76. Late eve and Maybrook extension w 9/13/81. RH branches to Balmoral and Mannheim w 7/4/82. Weekend service w 2/2/92 and replaced by Pace 317. Reduced to weekday rush hours only 4/26/98, service during other periods now operated by Pace as route 317.

Bus Garage: West Towns Bus Co. (12/9/51-2/22/59), Lawndale (2/22/59-12/4/60), Kedzie (12/4/60-10/81), North Ave. (10/81-6/29/84), Kedzie (6/29/84-present)

[MetroShadow]

Here's an article giving some insight on what riders could expect on Sunday December 16th, 2012 provided by the Northwestern Unversity Research Transportation Division.

http://www.nbcchicag...-167676385.html

This, if you're a planner or foamer, really doesn't tell me (nor the lot of us) anything.

[Busjack]

This, if you're a planner or foamer, really doesn't tell me (nor the lot of us) anything.

I think it was basically a puff piece for the professor.

For planners, I don't know if there is any implication raised about turning it over to Northwestern, as opposed to keeping it in house or calling in the consultants.