CTA Service Adjustments

[renardo870]

I see my point is being missed again, I meant getting close to downtown BEFORE the start of the deadheads. Sheesh. And I do think I conceded 103rd's position in having lost the 127 as a means to get 14 buses at the Jefferson and Washington start point. But the original discussion on this front wasn't about getting to a starting point but whether a certain deadhead was necessary. Art brought the now J14 route as a counter to my point about the 8 Halsted Roosevelt starts. My point he was countering was why do the runs those trips start from 77th when those runs at least could be done from Kedzie with a shorter deadhead? In my concession in the 14/J14 case I pointed out that we're getting a bit into apples and oranges from the standpoint that 103rd has no other alternative but to make the long deadhead due to having fewer routes that could create a shorter deadhead and especially now with its artics for that route having unique markings and getting other unique features.

True. It was a time when some 14 trips DH to/from Kedzie instead of going back south a long time ago but that stopped. They even had trips going to State/15th and Washington/Racine as well when CTA owned those properties.

[Busjack]

...So anyone still want to argue a deadhead from 77th for a Halsted trip starting at Roosevelt Road makes sense?

To the extent that any deadhead makes sense, from 77th would for the reason I said earlier: the Taylor-Roosevelt exit to the Dan Ryan is closest to Halsted. I had added the caveat whether the bus can get through the traffic jam on the elevated portion of the highway north of the Chinatown connector.

I also reiterate that now there really isn't a barn or holding lot near downtown. Kedzie, which is 3 miles from Halsted and 4 miles from State, can't be the starting point for everything downtown, unless CTA plans to expand its midday storage to about 700 buses. The drivers would still have to find a way to get back to NP, 77, or 103.

[trainman8119]

Regarding the 11 fight. I am tired of hearing about how the Brown Line parallels the route between Western and Fullerton. So, using that logic, does that mean the 56 should be eliminated between Kedzie and Grand? Should the 29 be eliminated between Grand and 95th or at least 63rd) ? How about the 24 south of 35th ? I realize there are other factors in play here, but this 11-Brown Line explaination Mr. Claypool keeps leaning just doesn't cut it. To me it just shows he doesn't know his system and probably needs some planners who and/ or a public relations advisor who has a real clue.

[Busjack]

Regarding the 11 fight. I am tired of hearing about how the Brown Line parallels the route between Western and Fullerton. So, using that logic, does that mean the 56 should be eliminated between Kedzie and Grand? Should the 29 be eliminated between Grand and 95th or at least 63rd) ? How about the 24 south of 35th ? I realize there are other factors in play here, but this 11-Brown Line explaination Mr. Claypool keeps leaning just doesn't cut it. To me it just shows he doesn't know his system and probably needs some planners who and/ or a public relations advisor who has a real clue.

At some point, 24 was cut back; now no weekends, some only to 59th, many of the runs are for Simeon, and the route used to go to Beverly instead of ending at 79th.

29 doesn't run owl.

56 also doesn't run as much as it used to, but an argument could be made that it is superfluous south of Logan Square.

But I did have a good essay on the definition of autocrat on the CTA Tattler this morning.

[BUSANGEL#1]

Regarding the 11 fight. I am tired of hearing about how the Brown Line parallels the route between Western and Fullerton. So, using that logic, does that mean the 56 should be eliminated between Kedzie and Grand? Should the 29 be eliminated between Grand and 95th or at least 63rd) ? How about the 24 south of 35th ? I realize there are other factors in play here, but this 11-Brown Line explaination Mr. Claypool keeps leaning just doesn't cut it. To me it just shows he doesn't know his system and probably needs some planners who and/ or a public relations advisor who has a real clue.

I totally agree the same argument can be made for #62 between Pulaski and Downtown, #3 north of 63rd, #81 west of Damen, #97 the entire route, #201/205 on Chicago and Ridge south of Golf/Central, #20 the entire route, #22 the entire route, portions of the 36 and 151. A fair policy is a fair policy, although ridership on #11 is not as high as other local bus routes that parallel rail lines. Which is why routes like #24 are barely running so ridership does matter. However it is important to have a bus alternative for rail, because stations can be far apart especially on the O'Hare Blue Line and Dan Ryan Red Line.

[jajuan]

To the extent that any deadhead makes sense, from 77th would for the reason I said earlier: the Taylor-Roosevelt exit to the Dan Ryan is closest to Halsted. I had added the caveat whether the bus can get through the traffic jam on the elevated portion of the highway north of the Chinatown connector.

I also reiterate that now there really isn't a barn or holding lot near downtown. Kedzie, which is 3 miles from Halsted and 4 miles from State, can't be the starting point for everything downtown, unless CTA plans to expand its midday storage to about 700 buses. The drivers would still have to find a way to get back to NP, 77, or 103.

However the original point was about Halsted not downtown. We're all just getting lost in debating downtown because of Art's J14 example to counter my point about Halsted.

[jajuan]

I totally agree the same argument can be made for #62 between Pulaski and Downtown, #3 north of 63rd, #81 west of Damen, #97 the entire route, #201/205 on Chicago and Ridge south of Golf/Central, #20 the entire route, #22 the entire route, portions of the 36 and 151. A fair policy is a fair policy, although ridership on #11 is not as high as other local bus routes that parallel rail lines. Which is why routes like #24 are barely running so ridership does matter. However it is important to have a bus alternative for rail, because stations can be far apart especially on the O'Hare Blue Line and Dan Ryan Red Line.

Not only does there have to be a bus alternative, CTA has to make sure that there is an adequate balance with those alternatives against the rail option for the very same reasons you gave for having the alternatives as well as the obvious detail that we can see but CTA management refuses to see that the rail system is pretty going to have bigger crush loads compared to buses. And they, state and local governments have to start getting serious about the condition of the rail infrastructure if they expect us to keep using that part of the system to any decent degree. The two Red Line derailments near Granville along with this past weekend's switch signaling problems point to some serious systems to a larger problem none of them can keep ignoring or afford not getting the needed budgets under control to start fixing it.

[Busjack]

However the original point was about Halsted not downtown. We're all just getting lost in debating downtown because of Art's J14 example to counter my point about Halsted.

But my point is valid to the extent that everything can't be at Kedzie. Roosevelt and Halsted (or Congress and Halsted) is sure closer to downtown than most of the rest of the city.

[artthouwill]

I just now noticed the 120 & 121 were renamed Ogilvie/Streeterville and.Union /Streeterville Express respectively.

[ChicagoNova]

I have a feeling that Kedzie Garage may have runs on #146 when the December 16th changes come down.

[BusHunter]

Regarding the 11 fight. I am tired of hearing about how the Brown Line parallels the route between Western and Fullerton. So, using that logic, does that mean the 56 should be eliminated between Kedzie and Grand? Should the 29 be eliminated between Grand and 95th or at least 63rd) ? How about the 24 south of 35th ? I realize there are other factors in play here, but this 11-Brown Line explaination Mr. Claypool keeps leaning just doesn't cut it. To me it just shows he doesn't know his system and probably needs some planners who and/ or a public relations advisor who has a real clue.

One thing they need to do is to get the ridership figures out there between Fullerton and Western on the #11 so we can see how justified the cut is. I know I saw a bus with 2 riders at Belmont. As far as other eliminations it's only a matter of time. You guys may talk against Kruesi, but it was he who tried to prevent a CTA doomsday. Now here we are losing more and more and paying more for less.

[artthouwill]

Today I saw K bus 1665 training on Rt 35.

[jajuan]

But my point is valid to the extent that everything can't be at Kedzie. Roosevelt and Halsted (or Congress and Halsted) is sure closer to downtown than most of the rest of the city.

I never said everything has to be at Kedzie. I'm talking about what looks like seven runs on only ONE route. My only point was and still is if you want to keep deadheads as short as is possible or feasible, it probably makes sense to let Kedzie serve in the supplement/secondary capacity for the route as 74th currently does while 77th still gets to be the primary garage. How is that saying everything should be at Kedzie? As I recall I gave some acknowledgment 148 doesn't necessarily stay there or even that it will get some of the 146 runs as some think might be the case. And why are you still bringing up downtown when no one was pressing downtown too much other than to agree that none on the downtown routes have a decently placed garage assignment, except for maybe the east-west downtown crosstown routes at Kedzie and Chicago garages?

[jajuan]

One thing they need to do is to get the ridership figures out there between Fullerton and Western on the #11 so we can see how justified the cut is. I know I saw a bus with 2 riders at Belmont. As far as other eliminations it's only a matter of time. You guys may talk against Kruesi, but it was he who tried to prevent a CTA doomsday. Now here we are losing more and more and paying more for less.

Okay and yet you still have buses that run through the eliminated part with at least 10 times as many so that says nothing. Some of the nightcar runs on the owl routes have stretches where there are only two passengers. Does that mean all the owl service that remains gets cut?

[Busjack]

...And why are you still bringing up downtown when no one was pressing downtown too much other than to agree that none on the downtown routes have a decently placed garage assignment, except for maybe the east-west downtown crosstown routes at Kedzie and Chicago garages?

1. Because of the location of the short start terminal.

2. For all we know, these trips end at 79th (as I had previously indicated that a 6-7 minute frequency from Broadway is only possible with the insertion of the buses at Roosevelt). So, you would have a deadhead one way or the other.

[jajuan]

2. For all we know, these trips end at 79th (as I had previously indicated that a 6-7 minute frequency from Broadway is only possible with the insertion of the buses at Roosevelt). So, you would have a deadhead one way or the other.

I never denied this point on either account which I why I made the point from the very beginning that you could shorten your deadheads and Kedzie could in this one instance could serve as a secondary with 77th still the primary. If it wasn't clear before I'll make clear now no I'm not saying let Kedzie do those runs just to go from Roosevelt to Broadway and do nothing else. And I'd like to know how making an argument of SHORTENING a deadhead where possible has morphed into understanding the point as ELIMINATING deadheads when it's obvious you're always going to have a deadhead somewhere except for routes that operate right in front of their assigned garage. So I'm still waiting for someone to explain in this one instance an approximate 8.5 mile deadhead makes sense when for the few runs in question that yes you can keep bidirectional you have the option of one that's 3 miles.

[Busjack]

I never denied this point on either account which I why I made the point from the very beginning that you could shorten your deadheads and Kedzie could in this one instance could serve as a secondary with 77th still the primary. If it wasn't clear before I'll make clear now no I'm not saying let Kedzie do those runs just to go from Roosevelt to Broadway and do nothing else. And I'd like to know how making an argument of SHORTENING a deadhead where possible has morphed into understanding the point as ELIMINATING deadheads when it's obvious you're always going to have a deadhead somewhere except for routes that operate right in front of their assigned garage. So I'm still waiting for someone to explain in this one instance an approximate 8.5 mile deadhead makes sense when for the few runs in question that yes you can keep bidirectional you have the option of one that's 3 miles.

In fact, if the trips end at 79th, you are doubling the deadheads, since (1) the bus would have to deadhead from Kedzie to Halsted to start the trip, and (2) would have to deadhead from 79th and Halsted to Kedzie and Van Buren to end the trip, instead of just pulling in at 79th and Wentworth.

When I put it that way, there wasn't any sense assigning 8 to Kedzie in the first place, except to balance out the deadhead, given that Limits isn't there to take care of the unexplained trips that end at Waveland

Or maybe you think it would just be more economical to run in service every 5 minutes from 79th.

[jajuan]

In fact, if the trips end at 79th, you are doubling the deadheads, since (1) the bus would have to deadhead from Kedzie to Halsted to start the trip, and (2) would have to deadhead from 79th and Halsted to Kedzie and Van Buren to end the trip, instead of just pulling in at 79th and Wentworth.

When I put it that way, there wasn't any sense assigning 8 to Kedzie in the first place, except to balance out the deadhead, given that Limits isn't there to take care of the unexplained trips that end at Waveland

Or maybe you think it would just be more economical to run in service every 5 minutes from 79th.

Ignoring that little snide remark about running every 5 minutes from 79th when I suggested nothing of the sort, it points to two things:

(1) There is no perfect solution to deadheading with Limits and other garages gone in recent decades. We already agreed to that point in varying degrees. That points in some degree to their solving an operating fiscal issue without a far enough look at how some decisions can bite them in some future date on capital side.

(2) The flaw in Kedzie ridiculously taking the buses out of service after the final full NB trips ending at Broadway and Waveland when 74th at least kept buses in service after the final full northbound trips and made them 74th pull-ins when it had the route.

[See Tea Eh]

Ignoring that little snide remark about running every 5 minutes from 79th when I suggested nothing of the sort, it points to two things:

(1) There is no perfect solution to deadheading with Limits and other garages gone in recent decades. We already agreed to that point in varying degrees. That points in some degree to their solving an operating fiscal issue without a far enough look at how some decisions can bite them in some future date on capital side.

(2) The flaw in Kedzie ridiculously taking the buses out of service after the final full NB trips ending at Broadway and Waveland when 74th at least kept buses in service after the final full northbound trips and made them 74th pull-ins when it had the route.

It is not the garage's decision to put buses in service or not. The schedule is written the way it is written, and the garage's responsibility is to fill the runs with operators and buses, and it is the operator's responsibility to follow the schedule they are given (unless revised by the control center or street supervision). To suggest that the garage (Kedzie/74th) is making the decision on whether or not to run buses in service is, well, ridiculous.

As for your first line (and claiming you suggested nothing of the sort), well:

It makes much more sense for 77th to run each bus it puts out on the 8 from the garage down 79th and start at the 79th/Halsted loop. Passing that up and running down the Ryan to start at Roosevelt would be beyond dumb.

[Busjack]

Ignoring that little snide remark about running every 5 minutes from 79th when I suggested nothing of the sort, it points to two things:

Besides what See said, it isn't a snide remark.

This issue would never have been discovered if, in fact, the schedule said "every 5 minutes from 79th," instead of several trips starting at Roosevelt.

By the same token, at one time the 8 schedule had trips ending at UIC-Blue Line, but that also must have ended at some time, as such are not reflected in the August 8, 2012 schedule. Hence, at the moment, every trip starting or ending either at 79th or Waveland has to deadhead. While, theoretically, there is now a much longer deadhead from Waveland into the night, that seems limited to 3 buses.

[jajuan]

Besides what See said, it isn't a snide remark.

This issue would never have been discovered if, in fact, the schedule said "every 5 minutes from 79th," instead of several trips starting at Roosevelt.

By the same token, at one time the 8 schedule had trips ending at UIC-Blue Line, but that also must have ended at some time, as such are not reflected in the August 8, 2012 schedule. Hence, at the moment, every trip starting or ending either at 79th or Waveland has to deadhead. While, theoretically, there is now a much longer deadhead from Waveland into the night, that seems limited to 3 buses.

As I said we agreed long before the discussion went on several unrelated tangents there's no perfect solution. You think you fix it in one place only to create it somewhere else.

[MetroShadow]

I've cross-posted this (from the New Flyer post) to get an instance of some of the weird interlining that might pop up.

Think about whichever route or routes that are interlined out of NP, those will be the cases to watch (I.e. 148's in the morning will likely be 22's later; 134's to 125's and so on...). Those increased service routes (even with artics) will be thrown into blocks anyway.

It would make sense where some of these routes will be blocked without interlining, or you'll see some funky ones where artics might be in play (some 66 short turns at Kedzie/Troy may be K runs).

And 77 is still completely out of FG, so any shot of artics might be less than 10%?

In this case, spoken on the concept of very short intervals where equipment might be swapped from different garages which might justify having artics on those routes... (77 is still up for grabs, unless those are extras).

[Busjack]

Apparently, more smoke and mirrors on Pawar's part re if the 11 can be saved. Sun-Times.

The reason I say that is all the hemming and hawing about "we don't know how to call a special meeting." The Board would have to comply with the Open Meetings Act. Unless this is a "self made" emergency, 48 hours notice of the agenda is necessary.

At least we now know who was the board member who didn't attend the last meeting on that subject. And maybe God will drop some money in response to Robinson's prayers.

That's what happens when the current mayor and governor appoint incompetents to the Board.

[mkohut]

Apparently, more smoke and mirrors on Pawar's part re if the 11 can be saved. Sun-Times.

The reason I say that is all the hemming and hawing about "we don't know how to call a special meeting." The Board would have to comply with the Open Meetings Act. Unless this is a "self made" emergency, 48 hours notice of the agenda is necessary.

At least we now know who was the board member who didn't attend the last meeting on that subject. And maybe God will drop some money in response to Robinson's prayers.

That's what happens when the current mayor and governor appoint incompetents to the Board.

When you read the article it clearly shows Claypool doesn't know what he talking about.

[Busjack]

When you read the article it clearly shows Claypool doesn't know what he talking about.

At least with regard to what the interim union president said about the extra board covering the run.

The statement about the pick having happened a couple of months ago may at least explain why some posters here supposedly had the schedules.

However, saying that Claypool doesn't know what he is talking about is a truism that doesn't need further explanation. And, like with regard to the 5000 series seats, he will say anything to CYA.