3200-series - Updates

[jajuan]

Does anybody know what all 45 readings are? Knowing what readings are possible would give us an inside glimpse into the CTA's expansion priorities (for example a reading for 130th on the Red Line).

As I understand it the readings now are each of the current terminals for each line, any relevant short turn stops, Not In Service and Express. There aren't any readings for wishlist line extensions this time around as far as I know.

[Busjack]

Does anybody know what all 45 readings are? Knowing what readings are possible would give us an inside glimpse into the CTA's expansion priorities (for example a reading for 130th on the Red Line).

Somebody tried to lay them out here, although there seemed to be some omissions (such as Red 63-Ashland).

As jajuan indicated, nothing future, although the pictures of the 3200s, when delivered around 1992, showed "Ford City." Those rolls are long gone.

[See Tea Eh]

CTA is not in the business of making equipment capital investment decisions on the basis of what a railcar junkyard railfan museum might want 10 years from now.

[BusHunter]

CTA is not in the business of making equipment capital investment decisions on the basis of what a railcar junkyard railfan museum might want 10 years from now.

Did she just call IRM a junkyard?

[Juniorz]

Those Ford City Rollers Still Exisit, Both on the 3200-series & 2400-series

[Busjack]

Those Ford City Rollers Still Exisit, Both on the 3200-series & 2400-series

Not according to this guy.

[BusHunter]

Does anybody know what all 45 readings are? Knowing what readings are possible would give us an inside glimpse into the CTA's expansion priorities (for example a reading for 130th on the Red Line).

AFAIK, they don't have any extra signs to future locations. After Ford City not getting built, (maybe eventually) that is probably a taboo subject. Plus it only takes a short amount of time for a skilled programmer to make a sign. There are lots of signs that could still be made for the #5000's, like they use Roosevelt alot as a terminus for the Pink line yet there are no signs. Train tracker will display a Roosevelt sign, but a Roosevelt train will never show up physically for a deaf person. Same could be said for the Purple line. If the loop closes totally or in part, there is no alternate sign.

[Busjack]

I noted in the Press Release announcing the two contracts, while it mentioned the HVAC work, a contract wasn't awarded at this meeting for it, but more importantly:

And now we’re moving forward with modernizing the existing fleet and extending the life of these cars by an additional 10 years,” said CTA President Forrest Claypool.

Since the work isn't going to be done until 2015-2016 (the release also mentioned time to test prototypes), if we make the rash assumption that Claypool knows what he is talking about, that would take the cars out of the range of options to replace them with 7000s.*

_________

*Option 5 for 156 cars is 1790 days or 5 years after the contract effective date. The last option is 2460 days (approximately 6.7 years). If the contract date is some time in 2014, that still doesn't get you to 10 years after 2015, and probably not even 10 years if one assumes a couple of years after the options are exercised until delivery.

[BusHunter]

I noted in the Press Release announcing the two contracts, while it mentioned the HVAC work, a contract wasn't awarded at this meeting for it, but more importantly:

And now we’re moving forward with modernizing the existing fleet and extending the life of these cars by an additional 10 years,” said CTA President Forrest Claypool.

Since the work isn't going to be done until 2015-2016 (the release also mentioned time to test prototypes), if we make the rash assumption that Claypool knows what he is talking about, that would take the cars out of the range of options to replace them with 7000s.

I would expect them to store some of the #3200's, depending on how many #7000's they get. But CTA has rehabbed buses like the #6000's and started retiring them in the same year practically. (Take a look at my #6000 list for dates) But you can at least write off the #2600's if the #7000's do indeed happen. They probably won't have to visit the issue of retiring #3200's until 2020-21 anyway. I don't know if they have a federal obligation though to run rehabbed cars for a certain length of time.

[Juniorz]

So the real question is, When the 7000-series manufacturer is debuted on January 2014, will they go for a current fleet appearance or will the appearance really be a game changer

[Busjack]

I would expect them to store some of the #3200's, depending on how many #7000's they get. But CTA has rehabbed buses like the #6000's and started retiring them in the same year practically. (Take a look at my #6000 list for dates) But you can at least write off the #2600's if the #7000's do indeed happen. They probably won't have to visit the issue of retiring #3200's until 2020-21 anyway. I don't know if they have a federal obligation though to run rehabbed cars for a certain length of time.

On the last point, depends on whether federal funds are involved.

I see it as (1) like the 5-50s, they didn't use them as long as indicated when they were rehabilitated (they sure were off the Skokie Swift before the time predicted in 1992), (2) the options don't get exercised, or (3) the time from exercise of the options to delivery is stretched out more than I thought.

However, while the no-bid deal to convert them to the equivalent of 5000s seems way dead, the Press Release says that the overhaul will eventually be a projected $166 million project. The $12.3 million for these two contracts is relative petty cash.

Also, putting in about $648,000 a car doesn't seem like that's with the intent of retiring them earlier than the indicated 2025-2026.

[See Tea Eh]

So the real question is, When the 7000-series manufacturer is debuted on January 2014, will they go for a current fleet appearance or will the appearance really be a game changer

My money would be on a current fleet appearance. Which is too bad, because the real game-changer that I think they should look into is articulated trains, or at least articulated pairs, which would increase the capacity of the cars without the need to make any external infrastructure changes associated with wider cars or increased overall car/train lengths.

[Juniorz]

My money would be on a current fleet appearance. Which is too bad, because the real game-changer that I think they should look into is articulated trains, or at least articulated pairs, which would increase the capacity of the cars without the need to make any external infrastructure changes associated with wider cars or increased overall car/train lengths.

My money would be on a current fleet appearance. Which is too bad, because the real game-changer that I think they should look into is articulated trains, or at least articulated pairs, which would increase the capacity of the cars without the need to make any external infrastructure changes associated with wider cars or increased overall car/train lengths.

But 9 times out of 10, They will go with the classic mid-1980s 'L' look which isn't a bad design, but if the CTA does make a break through exterior design, it must be iconic & modern. As a 'L' car, that's what sets them apart but still recognizable

[BusHunter]

On the last point, depends on whether federal funds are involved.

I see it as (1) like the 5-50s, they didn't use them as long as indicated when they were rehabilitated (they sure were off the Skokie Swift before the time predicted in 1992), (2) the options don't get exercised, or (3) the time from exercise of the options to delivery is stretched out more than I thought.

However, while the no-bid deal to convert them to the equivalent of 5000s seems way dead, the Press Release says that the overhaul will eventually be a projected $166 million project. The $12.3 million for these two contracts is relative petty cash.

Also, putting in about $648,000 a car doesn't seem like that's with the intent of retiring them earlier than the indicated 2025-2026.

Just the fact that this is being done at Skokie Shops signifies that it's not going to be that big of a project. The most the average joe rider will notice is the LED signs. I think with this major influx of AC equipment, this #3200 rehab is slowly fizzling from the grandiose project it once was (including the acquisition of a special rehab facility) to more of a life extension rehab, which is what I would call it. It doesn't look like it will be using federal money, so there shouldn't be an issue if some cars retire early.

[Busjack]

Just the fact that this is being done at Skokie Shops signifies that it's not going to be that big of a project. ....

$648,000 a car is a hell of a lot of money, considering that the sign and auxiliary power unit contracts are only about $50,000 a car.

The Press Release talks about stuff like "rebuilding of the propulsion system, passenger door motors and the wheel and axle assemblies." I don't know about the capabilities of personnel in Skokie Shops, refurbishing systems that are supposedly obsolete (the reason why the 5000s are AC traction is supposedly that you can't get parts for DC), or the extent of the work done on the 2400s in house (the only visible thing being the addition of the flip up chairs for the wheel chair positions)*, but this still sounds like a lot of work.

__________

*chicago-l.org: "Between 1987 ad 1995, the 2400-series cars underwent their mid-life rehab, performed in-house by Skokie Shops personnel instead of contracting the job out."

[BusHunter]

$648,000 a car is a hell of a lot of money, considering that the sign and auxiliary power unit contracts are only about $50,000 a car.

The Press Release talks about stuff like "rebuilding of the propulsion system, passenger door motors and the wheel and axle assemblies." I don't know about the capabilities of personnel in Skokie Shops, refurbishing systems that are supposedly obsolete (the reason why the 5000s are AC traction is supposedly that you can't get parts for DC), or the extent of the work done on the 2400s in house (the only visible thing being the addition of the flip up chairs for the wheel chair positions)*, but this still sounds like a lot of work.

__________

*chicago-l.org: "Between 1987 ad 1995, the 2400-series cars underwent their mid-life rehab, performed in-house by Skokie Shops personnel instead of contracting the job out."

And what changed all that dramatically on the #2400's, that's my point. Sounds like just a basic rehab minus the signs, a few upgrades, nothing major. It doesn't sound like the #2600's for instance that had electrical components brought in the cars from outside and new bulkheads put in, or an interior/exterior facelift like the #2200's/#2600's. I don't know if they'll get 10 years out of it, but why contract out and spend more money if it's just a life extension rehab? (no new real systems put in just refurbishment)

[Busjack]

And what changed all that dramatically on the #2400's, that's my point. Sounds like just a basic rehab minus the signs, a few upgrades, nothing major. It doesn't sound like the #2600's for instance that had electrical components brought in the cars from outside and new bulkheads put in, or an interior/exterior facelift like the #2200's/#2600's. I don't know if they'll get 10 years out of it, but why contract out and spend more money if it's just a life extension rehab? (no new real systems put in just refurbishment)

As to "what changed on the #2400s" my point was that we don't know, except for the flip seats, but something was done.The 3200s supposedly had the quarter life rehab in the Midway shop.

Apparently isn't as much as sending the 2600s off to Alstom, or the $1 million a car dead Bombardier deal, but still, moneywise, closer to the latter.

Of course, if there were really a CT board, they would question management before approving anything beyond these two contracts. By comparison, the $4.1 million for the signs is chickenfeed, maybe twice or three times what CTA paid to replace 900 roll signs to include Red Ashland-63.

[BusHunter]

Of course, if there were really a CT board, they would question management before approving anything beyond these two contracts. By comparison, the $4.1 million for the signs is chickenfeed, maybe twice or three times what CTA paid to replace 900 roll signs to include Red Ashland-63.

Well have to see what other contracts come down the pipeline, but I'm not anticipating too much. I was thinking the other day once the Red line gets all their #5000's and the Purple gets theirs, they'll probably be no need for Red line/Purple line roller curtains. That sign roll will probably be phased out, in fact it's probably already in progress as many Red line roller curtains have become Blue line ones.

As far as the signs, the digitalization was done on the #5000's at either Harlem shop or 54th, so it's not a big deal that even needs the cars to be brought to Skokie to do. It may just turn out one day we start noticing the signs are getting replaced regardless of whether they have hit the rehab process or not.

[Busjack]

... I was thinking the other day once the Red line gets all their #5000's and the Purple gets theirs,...

I'm thinking that we have to reassess our assumptions about this. The original allocation was, according to NBC 5, Pink, Green, Red, Orange and Purple, which, based on prior car assignments, would have taken up the 708 (now 714) cars.

However, looking at the chicago-l.org Car Assignment Sheet, and disregarding long term holds that will become short term junk:

• Although as of June 5, 2013, no line is down cars, even though there aren't any more Green to Ashland trains or Red Line service south of 63rd, as the Red Line Dan Ryan closure was already in effect. Green Line is actually up a few cars, compared to prior sheet and 16 from the June, 2012 sheet.
• Orange has 54 2400s, and is up that number from the June 2012 sheet, obviously because of Brownages.

Therefore, one can't conclude which lines will get the 5000s, except it sure looks like both Orange and Purple won't.

If, theoretically, Orange and Brown stay as is, they'll need a number of 2600s, maybe 60* of the 400 that the 7000 minutes stay will remain. Otherwise, the 60 go to Purple, and Midway will be running a combination of 3200s and 5000s.

In any event, we can't tell now where the 3200s will be, nor if terminal changes will become necessary. For instance, this time last year, nobody would have predicted the need to change signs for Jefferson Park (blue) and Ashland-63 (Red).

*revised

[sw4400]

I think the Red Line will be a mix of 2600's and 5000's. With regards to Purple, Orange and Brown... one line will be fully 5000's while the others will be fully 3200's or mix 3200 and 2600. But as you say, Busjack, there is no way to tell where the 3200's will be or who gets what. I wonder what will replace the 3200's as they get rotated out of the Midway and Kimball Yards for the rehabs... will it be 2400's, 2600's or loaner 5000's?

[Busjack]

I think the Red Line will be a mix of 2600's and 5000's. With regards to Purple, Orange and Brown... one line will be fully 5000's while the others will be fully 3200's or mix 3200 and 2600. But as you say, Busjack, there is no way to tell where the 3200's will be or who gets what. I wonder what will replace the 3200's as they get rotated out of the Midway and Kimball Yards for the rehabs... will it be 2400's, 2600's or loaner 5000's?

The rehabs aren't supposed to start until 2015 according to the press release, at least not in earnest, even if BusHunter is correct that minor changes, such as installing the electronic destination signs might come first. Even the signs are subject to a test period, so you will see them on a couple of the cars for a time before the general order to proceed is given.

Given the time frame noted above, there sure shouldn't be any 2400s around by then, as 5000 deliveries will be close to or near completion.

And however one construes what CTA said at the time about the Red Line South project, it would be that 5000s would be on it after it was fixed. Since the current report is that ~300 are here, ~154 on the Pink and Green lines, that's about 146 on the Red Line now, with a total allotment (according to the last assignment sheet) of 382. My math indicates that at least another 236 of the remaining 414 go on the Red Line, with by the time the line reopens, 45 of them being delivered.

But, in any event, I can't see the Red Line, being the backbone of the system according to da Mare, running with mixed equipment any longer than necessary, given the maintenance problems that would entail, and that now the Pink and Green are completely converted. My math leaves 178 5000s after that. The question then becomes where those 178, or probably less than that, are assigned. Purple and Yellow together would now take 110, while Orange 148, obviously not enough to do both.

[artthouwill]

According to Metro Magazine, the awarded contracts for things related to the 3200s rehab shake out like this:

http://www.metro-magazine.com/news/story/2013/08/cta-awards-several-contracts.aspx

[Busjack]

According to Metro Magazine, the awarded contracts for things related to the 3200s rehab shake out like this:

http://www.metro-magazine.com/news/story/2013/08/cta-awards-several-contracts.aspx

Metro Magazine sure does a hell of a job copying press releases.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

Those Ford City Rollers Still Exisit, Both on the 3200-series & 2400-series

At one point they existed on some non-rebuilt 2600s, but I doubt that is still the case (the roll sign selector does not show Ford City). A video on Youtube taken in 2000 shows a roll sign set to Ford City on a Blue Line train at the the Oak Park station.

Anyways, I wonder how many 3200s will be out at a time... It seems like substituting other types to the Brown and Orange Lines is likely.

[Busjack]

...

Anyways, I wonder how many 3200s will be out at a time... It seems like substituting other types to the Brown and Orange Lines is likely.

Good question. At the moment, Midway yard is being beefed up with 2400s, which probably will be on their 27th retirement trip by then.

Since they were talking about 2015-2016 for the rehab project, the deliveries of 5000s will be done, and the only question then would be whether the Orange Line is receiving 5000s, or, in any event, the fleet will be so augmented that no one will miss the out of service cars. Also, if the Orange line is converted, where the rehabbed 3200s from it would go.