Eight Car Trains

[chicagopcclcar]

Most people didn't realize that eight car trains ran on the Ravenswood branch before the CTA. I think eight car trains even ran on the Metropolitan. When the State Street subway opened in 1943, eight car trains ran on the two routes that used the new subway.....Englewood-Normal Park/Ravenswood-Albany Park and the Jackson Park/Howard-Evanston. In 1949, the CTA consolidated the north end of the subway line and all trains went to Howard. The Ravenswood went down to six cars, the subway remained eight cars. Six cars was max for the other CTA lines. The Ryan-Lake Street opened with six cars, as did the Congress-Douglas/Milwaukee. All lines broke down to shorter consists in non-rush periods.

So here are my questions....when did the CTA go to all-day eight car trains on the North-South/Red line? All day eight car trains on the West-Northwest/Blue line? I imagine eight car rush-hour trains came first on the West-South, before all day 8s; dates please.

As a note, the Green line had some brief eight car operation in the pm. rush and the Orange line opened with six cars for the first week and then graduated to eight car rush hour trains in the second week.

Fun Photo.....Guess Where??

[See Tea Eh]

Looks 63rd-ish.

[Mr.cta85]

Most people didn't realize that eight car trains ran on the Ravenswood branch before the CTA. I think eight car trains even ran on the Metropolitan. When the State Street subway opened in 1943, eight car trains ran on the two routes that used the new subway.....Englewood-Normal Park/Ravenswood-Albany Park and the Jackson Park/Howard-Evanston. In 1949, the CTA consolidated the north end of the subway line and all trains went to Howard. The Ravenswood went down to six cars, the subway remained eight cars. Six cars was max for the other CTA lines. The Ryan-Lake Street opened with six cars, as did the Congress-Douglas/Milwaukee. All lines broke down to shorter consists in non-rush periods.

So here are my questions....when did the CTA go to all-day eight car trains on the North-South/Red line? All day eight car trains on the West-Northwest/Blue line? I imagine eight car rush-hour trains came first on the West-South, before all day 8s; dates please.

As a note, the Green line had some brief eight car operation in the pm. rush and the Orange line opened with six cars for the first week and then graduated to eight car rush hour trains in the second week.

Fun Photo.....Guess Where??

[/quote

Easy 63rd

[chicagopcclcar]

You guys.....you've tackled the "easy" question and skipped over the hard ones, LOL. Yes, 63rd St. and the Dan Ryan expressway. That's the prototype 5000s SB. They say the two reverse curves were laid out for 70 MPH. The tower bent Englewood branch is in the background, of course, with credit to Dr. J. A. Waddell for that design also found on the north side. To think, customers walked up to the extra heights at six stations on this branch with only Racine and Loomis at normal height. The extra heights were needed for the 'L' to cross three steam railroads. I did find one answer....December, 1972 is when the West-South (Ryan-Lake St.) started using eight car trains in the rush periods. Six cars were the max up to that time. Credit to ChicagoL.org.

[artthouwill]

All day eight car trains came into existence in the mid 1990s as a type of budget cut. CTA decided to lengthen intervals between trains from 7.5 minutes to 10 minutes during off peak hours. To compensate for increased waiting time and the likelihood of more crowded trains, CTA went with 8 cars on the Red and Blue lines all day. Basically instead of running 8 trains in an hour from say 95th, CTA would get by with 6 (using 2 less operators). I can't remember if this went in effect before, during, or after CTA went to one man operation on all lines.

[Busjack]

All day eight car trains came into existence in the mid 1990s as a type of budget cut. CTA decided to lengthen intervals between trains from 7.5 minutes to 10 minutes during off peak hours. To compensate for increased waiting time and the likelihood of more crowded trains, CTA went with 8 cars on the Red and Blue lines all day. Basically instead of running 8 trains in an hour from say 95th, CTA would get by with 6 (using 2 less operators). I can't remember if this went in effect before, during, or after CTA went to one man operation on all lines.

Krambles's book mentioned a similar tradeoff on the Lake-Dan Ryan in 1990. CTA has said that it doesn't run full consists at some times because of wear on the cars and the tracks, but I guess that isn't a consideration if it is running the same number of cars, but just in longer trains not as frequently.

[sw4400]

Here's a question for you, chicagopcclcar... what was the length of the railcars pre-CTA on the Ravenswood(Brown) Line? Because the main reason for the Countdown To A New Brown project was not only to update the aging stations, but to lengthen them for eight-car trains. Going stock by stock from Chicago-l.org:

• Wooden Cars: 46'-48'
• 4000-Series: 48'-6"
• 5000-Series(1947): 88'-7.5"
• 6000-Series: 48'-0"
• 1-50 Series: 48'-0"
• 2000-Series: 48'-0"
• 2200-Series: 48'-0"
• 2400-Series: 48'-0"
• 2600-Series: 48'-0"
• 3200-Series: 48'-0"
• 5000-Series(2009): 48'-0"

The cars are all basically the same length according to the people who put together the Chicago-l.org page with the exception of the original 5000-Series, which appeared to be double. So how can cars that were about the same length as our current stock berth at Ravenswood stations that were only designed, in the CTA's report when the Brown Line project was started, to handle six-car trains dating back to the 1890's. That was the reason for the extension of platforms to handle eight-car trains. I doubt that 2 feet is the difference between the 6th and 8th car.

[buslist]

Here's a question for you, chicagopcclcar... what was the length of the railcars pre-CTA on the Ravenswood(Brown) Line? Because the main reason for the Countdown To A New Brown project was not only to update the aging stations, but to lengthen them for eight-car trains. Going stock by stock from Chicago-l.org:

• Wooden Cars: 46'-48'
• 4000-Series: 48'-6"
• 5000-Series(1947): 88'-7.5"
• 6000-Series: 48'-0"
• 1-50 Series: 48'-0"
• 2000-Series: 48'-0"
• 2200-Series: 48'-0"
• 2400-Series: 48'-0"
• 2600-Series: 48'-0"
• 3200-Series: 48'-0"
• 5000-Series(2009): 48'-0"

The cars are all basically the same length according to the people who put together the Chicago-l.org page with the exception of the original 5000-Series, which appeared to be double. So how can cars that were about the same length as our current stock berth at Ravenswood stations that were only designed, in the CTA's report when the Brown Line project was started, to handle six-car trains dating back to the 1890's. That was the reason for the extension of platforms to handle eight-car trains. I doubt that 2 feet is the difference between the 6th and 8th car.

I suspect it boils down to door and cab location. With doors at the ends, instead of quarter points and cabs In the leading vestibule, only the rear vestibule of the first car would need to be at the platform. Similarly one could operate such that only the forward vestibule of the rear car was at the platform with the rear doors not opening. Thus the station platform would only need to be about 10 feet longer than a six car train. But careful stations stops would be required.

There are several stations on the London underground where the front or rear doors of the train do not open due to platform length.

[chicagopcclcar]

Here's a question for you, chicagopcclcar... what was the length of the railcars pre-CTA on the Ravenswood(Brown) Line? Because the main reason for the Countdown To A New Brown project was not only to update the aging stations, but to lengthen them for eight-car trains. Going stock by stock from Chicago-l.org:

• Wooden Cars: 46'-48'
• 4000-Series: 48'-6"
• 5000-Series(1947): 88'-7.5"
• 6000-Series: 48'-0"
• 1-50 Series: 48'-0"
• 2000-Series: 48'-0"
• 2200-Series: 48'-0"
• 2400-Series: 48'-0"
• 2600-Series: 48'-0"
• 3200-Series: 48'-0"
• 5000-Series(2009): 48'-0"

The cars are all basically the same length according to the people who put together the Chicago-l.org page with the exception of the original 5000-Series, which appeared to be double. So how can cars that were about the same length as our current stock berth at Ravenswood stations that were only designed, in the CTA's report when the Brown Line project was started, to handle six-car trains dating back to the 1890's. That was the reason for the extension of platforms to handle eight-car trains. I doubt that 2 feet is the difference between the 6th and 8th car.

Buslist is on the correct direction. The CRT and later the CTA did not use a gateman/conductor on the front and last car. The first gateman/conductor was between the first and second car and between the next to the last and the last car. So the train actually stuck out both ends of the platform. That's how eight car trains of 4000s could berth at most elevated platforms.

The 4000s were converted to multiple door operation with one conductor working from inbetween the third and fourth car. A key inserted in the end cars removed those doors from remote operation. (Confession: I remember all to well not keying that front door and it opened at Lincoln & Paulina giving me a skybox view of Lincoln Ave after overshooting with 4000s about 70 ft.) By the time the 6000s arrived, the CTA had built little narrow platform extensions so that the 6000s with their doors at the quarter-points could safely berth. Subway platforms were no problem being built for proposed six unit articulated compartment trains 9 ft. 6 in. wide. The Congress had almost 40 years of only six car trains stopping at its ten car platforms.

[chicagomotorman]

• on the 4000s series and earlier, on short plaflorms, didn't the motorman have to berth the head car out of the station, or at least half of it, and block the first door for passenger use, in order for an 8 car train to use it?

[chicagopcclcar]

• on the 4000s series and earlier, on short plaflorms, didn't the motorman have to berth the head car out of the station, or at least half of it, and block the first door for passenger use, in order for an 8 car train to use it?

Yes, the motorman used his MUDC key to cut out the head doors. The conductor did the same with the rearmost doors. The 6000s also had a "zone switch" at the cab end that would prevent the remote door control from going beyond. This feature was never used. Conductors usually just opened and closed doors on one end of the train and not the other. This happened on the east 63rd Jackson Park branch on northbound trains that were going to get the rear cars cut NB at 61st. Savy customers knew to board the third car and cross into the fourth car for empty seats, finish smoking, etc. The chains were up across the end door between the fourth and fifth cars. On one of my videos you can hear the conductor admonish a customer over the PA telling him to come back to the fourth car and put the chains back up.

[qwantae]

I see that 63rd Bridge Overpass is apparently the Oldest Bridge now on the Dan Ryan Expressway. But it's still in a pretty good shape.

[BusHunter]

I remember in the 80's and early 90's when the CA took your fares, (before the birth of the transit card in 1994) the O'Hare Congress-Douglas would run 2 car trains all day Sunday, because that would typically be the CA's day off and you would pay on the train. They also ran 2 car trains also in the late night periods, same scenario. They would occasionally run four cars, but it would be real difficult for the conductor to collect fares from 4 cars, typically on a Saturday evening. The same was true with the Howard Englewood-Jackson Pk line. It's hard to imagine the Howard/Englewood-Jackson Pk with 2 car trains but it did occur before '94, mostly at night but not during the day. I can't seem to remember when the West-Northwest went to 8 cars from 6, but I do know in the mid 80's they did run 8 cars. It could've occurred when the River Rd extension opened, but i seem to remember 8 car trains at Jefferson Pk as well, so it has to be somewhere before 1983.

[Busjack]

I remember in the 80's and early 90's when the CA took your fares, (before the birth of the transit card in 1994) the O'Hare Congress-Douglas would run 2 car trains all day Sunday, because that would typically be the CA's day off and you would pay on the train....

There was something similar on the Lake portion of the West South in the 1970s. The difference was that they used 4 car trains and had ways to block off the platform so that riders could only board the car that had the conductor, but the whole platform could be used for exiting (I presume through a rotogate). I don't recall the ticket agents being absent on the Dan Ryan portion.

[jtrosario]

There was something similar on the Lake portion of the West South in the 1970s. The difference was that they used 4 car trains and had ways to block off the platform so that riders could only board the car that had the conductor, but the whole platform could be used for exiting (I presume through a rotogate). I don't recall the ticket agents being absent on the Dan Ryan portion.

Rode the Lake St line (Green) on Sunday mornings back then and can confirm that the portion of the platform that was exit only did go through a rotogate. The platform separator to prevent access from the paid platform section to the exit only plaform section was designed as a "slippery curved slope"

[chicagomotorman]

What year did cta stop carrying passengers, and started carrying customers?

[Busjack]

What year did cta stop carrying passengers, and started carrying customers?

Probably about when Target quit having customers and started having guests. However, I thought guests don't have to pay.

[chicagopcclcar]

Disneyworld has both customers and guests and you can be sure you'll pay a lot.

Question, how did BJ see this thread/topic. I thought he doesn't read my posts.

[chicagopcclcar]

What year did cta stop carrying passengers, and started carrying customers?

If you insert "passengers" and "customers" in the search box under Press Releases, you find results up to the present date so I would offer that the CTA seems to use both terms currently. I didn't look close enough to see if there were any determiners to show when, where, and why the CTA would use either term.

[pudgym29]

I remember in the 80's and early 90's when the CA took your fares, (before the birth of the transit card in 1994) the O'Hare Congress-Douglas would run 2 car trains all day Sunday, because that would typically be the CA's day off and you would pay on the train. They also ran 2 car trains also in the late night periods, same scenario. They would occasionally run four cars, but it would be real difficult for the conductor to collect fares from 4 cars, typically on a Saturday evening. The same was true with the Howard Englewood-Jackson Pk line. It's hard to imagine the Howard/Englewood-Jackson Pk with 2 car trains but it did occur before '94, mostly at night but not during the day. I can't seem to remember when the West-Northwest went to 8 cars from 6, but I do know in the mid 80's they did run 8 cars. It could've occurred when the River Rd extension opened, but i seem to remember 8 car trains at Jefferson Pk as well, so it has to be somewhere before 1983.

Back in the late 1970s, when I would ride around on a CTA Sunday Supertransfer, I learned that North-South “L” trains were no less than four cars, because there was an agent at each and every station on the route, even on Sunday. On a few early Sunday evenings, it would actually add a two-car set @ Howard to make a six-car train. Somebody I know would actually put up the chains at the rear of the sixth car because the conductor was seemingly uninterested in doing such.

West-Northwest “L” trains were always two-car trains on Sundays. The strange part would occur when, rather than a 2200 consist, a 6000-series train was pulled out of a yard (usually @ 54th Ave.) to make a run. (However, those trains were typically the Bicentennial-liveried sets - including 6711-12, "George Washington", with 6711 having the experimental air-conditioning unit.)

[BusHunter]

The Red line two car trains were in the overnight, I came upon one one day, at 9AM on a sunday morning, but it was heading towards Howard and would be laid up. In the overnights, I seem to remember most of the CA's system wide would be gone and most of the stations were pay on train. The only stations that were not like this were the stations in the loop and closer to downtown.