700-series XE40 - Deliveries & Assignments

[Busjack]

...

Doesn't look too bad, but looks like suspension could be worked on a bit an maybe steering too. Drive motor had a few "Class 4's", but was still able to operate on a route, just in a "Degraded" state.

Essentially, though, since it is the same platform, and they have tested XDE40 and XD40 buses, the only relevant issue here would be the drive motor. I had seen in the energy economy loop test that it conked out once.

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[jajuan]

 

This shows the infancy for all-Electric Buses here in the U.S. They've just completed Altoona tests for the XE40 and are now submitting an XE60 model for Altoona next year. That would be one big reason why CTA is not yet procuring any all-Electric buses. For the foreseeable future, they'll be either Clean Diesel or Diesel/Electric Hybrids. Maybe about 5+ years in the future, if the all-Electric buses continue to show promise.

CTA was bit once by buses that failed the Altoona testing in 2003-2004, I don't think they'll be so quick to jump into ones just getting tested quite so soon again(except for a small trial order).

 

• For the foreseeable future they will be the 125 Novas and maybe 25 more Novas, and nothing else for the duration of the 5 year capital plan. The application for the electric bus was for 2019.
• I didn't go through the whole report, and am sure you didn't either, but I really doubt that NF would have put out a press release that it had "exceptional performance in all categories of the Altoona Test" if it had failed. Also, "It is based on our proven Xcelsior platform that has accumulated several hundred million miles of safe and reliable service since its introduction in 2008." I brought out before that NF was concentrating its resources on that platform, when you said they were developing something else. Also, since CTA is testing two XE40s, they know what they would be getting if they pass this test and CTA gets $1.2 million per bus from heaven to order more.

Just a quick glance(I'm don't really have time to go through such a large document page by page), but I read enough that there were some issues, mechanically-wise speaking with the test bus. The test bus didn't encounter what are mentioned as Class 1 or 2 Failures, but 12 Class 3 Failures and 9 Class 4 Failures. Class 3 is a failure requiring removal of bus from service and Class 4 is when bus can continue on it's assigned route, but is "Degraded". Failure will be reported by driver.

Breakdown of breakdowns:

4 "Class 4" for Suspension

6 "Class 3" for Suspension

1 "Class 4" for Steering

3 "Class 3" for Steering

3 "Class 4" for Drive Motor

1 "Class 4" for Brakes

1 "Class 3" for Compartments/Framework

1 "Class 3" for Electrical

1 "Class 3" for HVAC

 

Doesn't look too bad, but looks like suspension could be worked on a bit an maybe steering too. Drive motor had a few "Class 4's", but was still able to operate on a route, just in a "Degraded" state.

Dude, the bus passed the test. The Xcelsior platform itself in general is a proven platform or else we would be hearing reports from all the other TAs that got Xcelsior buses of some kind that they were having major problems with the bus over the course of the seven years that the Xcelsior has existed. The only thing that wasn't shown to have potential until now was the electric version, and CTA and the Canadian TA that are testing models haven't reported any big issues with the buses they are testing. When are you going to stop drawing flawed conclusions based off the NABI fiasco when it has been shown time after time after time after time that each of the different scenarios you make these flawed conclusions for are vastly different than how NABI played on CTA's desperate need for articulated buses at the time to create that scenario in the first place? The biggest and most glaring difference that slips past you each time has been that in every case you've drawn these flawed and sometimes unwarranted conclusions, the relevant bus model passed the Altoona tests, while the NABI 60LFW did not. Plus CTA is not replacing buses that are roughly 20 years old and thus in a more desperate need to get new buses to replace them to a point that management is willing to ignore that what they're getting sold didn't pass the Altoona tests. As Busjack alluded to in his response to you, CTA not getting more electric buses has more to do with them still being very expensive relatively speaking and CTA not having money to buy more. The D40LFs just went through a major overhaul, so while the oldest among them would be retirement eligible in 2018 based on age alone, one would hope they wouldn't start dropping off the roster all that fast after the hundreds of millions of dollars spent to rebuild them. So that ultimately is another factor. Also the 7900s are currently replacing 6400s. So CTA just isn't in the dire straits it was in a decade ago to have the NABI fiasco come about. It's time to let go this fixation you have that another NABI might be lurking in the shadows when CTA management for all its other flaws has shown in the years since that it learned from that mistake.

[Juniorz]

http://www.metro-magazine.com/sustainability/news/295251/new-flyer-s-xe40-electric-bus-passes-altoona-testing

You may soon see more of New Flyer's newest model very soon! New Flyer Industries Inc. recently announced the completion of testing of the Xcelsior XE40 electric bus in the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) Bus Test Program at Altoona, Pa., commonly referred to as an "Altoona Test."

Any new model vehicle used in U.S. in mass transportation revenue service and purchased with FTA funds must complete an Altoona Test. The primary focus of the test program is structural durability with additional evaluations including: safety, structural integrity, reliability, performance, maintainability, noise and fuel economy

[BusHunter]

http://www.metro-magazine.com/sustainability/news/295251/new-flyer-s-xe40-electric-bus-passes-altoona-testing

You may soon see more of New Flyer's newest model very soon! New Flyer Industries Inc. recently announced the completion of testing of the Xcelsior XE40 electric bus in the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) Bus Test Program at Altoona, Pa., commonly referred to as an "Altoona Test."

Any new model vehicle used in U.S. in mass transportation revenue service and purchased with FTA funds must complete an Altoona Test. The primary focus of the test program is structural durability with additional evaluations including: safety, structural integrity, reliability, performance, maintainability, noise and fuel economy

What do they mean the bus achieved 20 miles per gallon fuel economy, it's all electric isn't it? If you pan down the Proterra Catalyst XR did a test at the Michelin proving grounds and had a bus do 258 miles on a single charge. That's probably a range that TA's would be more comfortable with. They claim NF will be testing a 60 footer with an extended range charge running with a fuel cell. Too bad CTA couldn't get some money from the feds for a bus or two of that because that sounds better, heading the right direction for range. That's the only thing I don't like about a bus with 100 -120 mile range. It's entire life it will just be a tripper bus and they could really use it to it's full potential if it had a longer range. That will be what inevitably sells these buses and maybe a lower price, maybe 700 to 800K.

I checked out what Proterra is charging for an all electric bus. 825K, that's not bad and is better than 1.2 million. These guys sound like the leader in all electric buses with the competitors following their technology. Surprisingly Foothill transit has about 14 of these in service. The only bad thing is the docking station, but if they could get an XR bus going they wouldn't need it, they could depot charge. NF if they want to tap into these sales might be better going after the 60 foot market because that's an area Proterra is unrepresented.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/the_juice/2014/09/electric_buses_proterra_wants_to_rid_america_of_emission_spewing_buses.html

Edited September 5, 2015 by BusHunter

[jajuan]

What do they mean the bus achieved 20 miles per gallon fuel economy, it's all electric isn't it? If you pan down the Proterra Catalyst XR did a test at the Michelin proving grounds and had a bus do 258 miles on a single charge. That's probably a range that TA's would be more comfortable with. They claim NF will be testing a 60 footer with an extended range charge running with a fuel cell. Too bad CTA couldn't get some money from the feds for a bus or two of that because that sounds better, heading the right direction for range. That's the only thing I don't like about a bus with 100 -120 mile range. It's entire life it will just be a tripper bus and they could really use it to it's full potential if it had a longer range. That will be what inevitably sells these buses and maybe a lower price, maybe 700 to 800K.

I checked out what Proterra is charging for an all electric bus. 825K, that's not bad and is better than 1.2 million. These guys sound like the leader in all electric buses with the competitors following their technology. Surprisingly Foothill transit has about 14 of these in service. The only bad thing is the docking station, but if they could get an XR bus going they wouldn't need it, they could depot charge. NF if they want to tap into these sales might be better going after the 60 foot market because that's an area Proterra is unrepresented.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/the_juice/2014/09/electric_buses_proterra_wants_to_rid_america_of_emission_spewing_buses.html

They're giving you the equivalent energy efficiency that would be measured IF the bus were running on any liquid fuel like diesel fuel for isnstance. All other buses these buses are being compared to do operate on some liquid fuel, so they still need to be able to compare against those other buses. So in this case miles per gallon isn't an actual unit of measure but an equivalent. It's a standard engineering practice when comparing efficiency between machines of radically difference power sources.

Edited September 5, 2015 by jajuan

[Busjack]

What do they mean the bus achieved 20 miles per gallon fuel economy, it's all electric isn't it?....

 

They're giving you the equivalent energy efficiency that would be measured IF the bus were running on any liquid fuel like diesel fuel for isnstance. All other buses these buses are being compared to do operate on some liquid fuel, so they still need to be able to compare against those other buses. So in this case miles per gallon isn't an actual unit of measure but an equivalent. It's a standard engineering practice when comparing efficiency between machines of radically difference power sources.

That's essentially it. A little less technical explanation  is here.

This gets used for all electric cars. The cited article mentions the MiVec.  Tesla gets about 89 MPGe.

The relevant comparison is that an electric bus gets about 20 MPGe while the usual diesel bus gets 3.4 mpg, so the electric bus is theoretically at least 5 times more efficient. However, as that article implies, the purchaser has to take into account the energy content of a gallon of diesel fuel, the cost of diesel fuel (tax free to the CTA), the range of the bus, and recharging time to figure it all out. Then, as BusHunter noted, the bus is at least $825K (although that is for only a 35 foot bus as compared to the NF 40 foot one).

[Juniorz]

Any updates on the run times on the XE40s?

[Juniorz]

WMATA to get one XE40 in 2016, making it the second transit agency in the nation to receive new flyer's electric bus.

 

http://www.newflyer.com/index/washington-metropolitan-area-to-add-xe40-battery-electric-bus

[busfan2847]

700 on the 60 this morning.

[Busjack]

700 on the 60 this morning.

Also, BusFinder shows 701 on 52 (barn trip from  currently 47th).

Also, note that the budget confirms that the chargers are in Kedzie garage.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Busjack

[BusHunter]

Also, BusFinder shows 701 on 52 (barn trip from  currently 47th).

Also, note that the budget confirms that the chargers are in Kedzie garage.

The budget also hints at a purchase of a mix of diesels, hybrids and electric buses in the future, so it might not be out of the question for them to go for the 25 electric buses. I don't get why they cut the Novabus option short 25 buses, but maybe that would explain it. If the state makes a folly out of the budget and CTA never gets it's 200 Million, then the extra buses may go by way of bus cut in 2017. So it might work out after all.

[jajuan]

The budget also hints at a purchase of a mix of diesels, hybrids and electric buses in the future, so it might not be out of the question for them to go for the 25 electric buses. I don't get why they cut the Novabus option short 25 buses, but maybe that would explain it. If the state makes a folly out of the budget and CTA never gets it's 200 Million, then the extra buses may go by way of bus cut in 2017. So it might work out after all.

Given it's a few years out, I'm not going to hold my breath on that considering with CTA things almost always change once thatthat future point comes. Remember they also had plans to purchase additional artics in the same solitication that is now the order of 7900s. The artic portion of that still hasn't been awarded and looks like it's dead looking at current CTA actions.

Edited October 24, 2015 by jajuan

[Juniorz]

Does anyone have a set list of the current electric bus runs?

[andrethebusman]

700 seen on Kedzie-California at 47th 1230am last Thursday on the bummer. So apparently they have no set assignment any more.

[busfan2847]

701 was on the 60 westbound at Madison/Canal at 7:22am this morning.

This is the same journey 700 was on last Friday although the last two days it has been a regular diesel bus.

[BusHunter]

#700 is out on the #66 right now close to Navy Pier.

[Busjack]

On the subject of who has an electric bus, Nova's Facebook (via Nova Flash) had a couple of pictures of theirs. Looks like instead of pantographs, the charger drops into the bus.

[sw4400]

Given it's a few years out, I'm not going to hold my breath on that considering with CTA things almost always change once thatthat future point comes. Remember they also had plans to purchase additional artics in the same solitication that is now the order of 7900s. The artic portion of that still hasn't been awarded and looks like it's dead looking at current CTA actions.

I think the artic order that is probably indefinitely suspended unless CTA pulls it back out in the future was probably for BRT. But I think ultimately CTA gave up on BRT service, either because of costs for construction of lanes and stations or complaints from citizens and Aldermen.

If they're bringing back the X49 and X9, this might be the nail in the coffin for the BRT program that was planned. It would be service overload to have, for example, 9, X9 & BRT9.

[Tcmetro]

CTA is requesting a change in scope for one of its CMAP grants. The original grant was for 32 60' hybrid articulated buses (or bus engines, it's somewhat unclear), but now CTA wants to purchase 27 electric buses. These buses will have battery chargers at the terminals so they can operate longer than the 2 electric buses (which avg. 97 mi/day) in the current fleet. These 27 buses will replace existing 6400-series buses, but the staff report notes that they plan to continue operating 125 Novas.

http://www.cmap.illinois.gov/documents/10180/503738/5.1_CostChangeRequests.pdf/45672ccd-80dc-4c1d-a172-44a5212a4d82

PDF, Page 12

CMAP's CMAQ Project Selection Committee will be considering the matter at their 1/7/16 meeting.

[Busjack]

45 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

he original grant was for 32 60' hybrid articulated buses (or bus engines, it's somewhat unclear),

The budget a couple of years ago had an item to convert some buses in the 4334 up range from diesel to hybrid, but I guess they are giving up on that. The cost of a hybrid bus itself would be about $1 million, not $316K (although even that sounds outrageous).

The description isn't clear whether this is a change to an existing grant or to a grant application. However, if the latter, it seems somewhat delusional, in that since the original application for 2019 was denied on the basis that the 700s haven't yet proven themselves, new money isn't going to be allocated to prove the concept for when the 1000s need to be replaced. However since page 16 says there is a funded award for $8,112,000, maybe CTA is attempting an end-around of the whole process on the prior application.

Two things are clear:

• This is only for the difference in cost between a diesel and electric bus, not the whole cost of an electric bus.
• Why the option for the last 25 Novas has of yet not been exercised.

Thanks for finding this.

 

[BusHunter]

13 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

CTA is requesting a change in scope for one of its CMAP grants. The original grant was for 32 60' hybrid articulated buses (or bus engines, it's somewhat unclear), but now CTA wants to purchase 27 electric buses. These buses will have battery chargers at the terminals so they can operate longer than the 2 electric buses (which avg. 97 mi/day) in the current fleet. These 27 buses will replace existing 6400-series buses, but the staff report notes that they plan to continue operating 125 Novas.

http://www.cmap.illinois.gov/documents/10180/503738/5.1_CostChangeRequests.pdf/45672ccd-80dc-4c1d-a172-44a5212a4d82

PDF, Page 12

CMAP's CMAQ Project Selection Committee will be considering the matter at their 1/7/16 meeting.

Damn and guess what garage will have the 125 Novas?

So what does that say Fg will only get 125 buses, which is sort of nuts considering Chicago doesn't have any old buses to replace. 27 buses will not replace 125 Novas which is even more nuts. (snowballs chance in hell Fg gets on the electric bus bandwagon either) So in saying all that, we will still have the #6400's on up until 2019 at least? Hopefully they will at least retire the base order but I doubt they'll all be gone 125 buses means they can only retire 50 option #6700's and #6800's and that count is close to that now.

This is like Doc Brown in BTTF, when he looks at his watch and says Damn... Damn... Damn...

[Busjack]

9 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Damn and guess what garage will have the 125 Novas?

I'm sure the write up was before the option was exercised. The last grant application had the same numbers.

You may walk away from the ledge now.

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

I'm sure the write up was before the option was exercised. The last grant application had the same numbers.

You may walk away from the ledge now.

Reading the document, CTA anticipates ordering 1000 buses in 2020 and states these 27 buses will be a continuation of the 2 bus electric bus experiment. They hint that they want to base that order off the 27 buses' performance. Like we may have an order of electric buses in that procurement. really? Why didn't they just tell us they were the powerball winner.

They also state the terminal quick chargers will be placed on routes that are long. Now if they were smart they would install all of these somewhere where there's a high concentration of buses in a terminal like Navy Pier, 95th/Red line or Jeff pk or Midway. They probably will be hitting some of those terminals anyway. If it's not that cost prohibitive maybe some more terminals will come on line, but I doubt places like Town Center or Ford City would want a mammoth charger in there lots.

Now, if we still have 125 buses we'll need more than 1000 buses in 2020 or we won't be able to retire the #1000's over the next few years after that. A small order of Midi's or something similar would solve that problem, that may be the future anyway.

 

[Busjack]

24 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Now, if we still have 125 buses we'll need more than 1000 buses in 2020 or we won't be able to retire the #1000's over the next few years after that. A small order of Midi's or something similar would solve that problem, that may be the future anyway.

I'm sure the reference was solely to retiring the 1000 series. Now, retiring it with electric buses is a joke, but....

 Stuff like this is only an approximation. Read today's Dilbert for what the applicant is actually doing.

[BusHunter]

7 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I'm sure the reference was solely to retiring the 1000 series. Now, retiring it with electric buses is a joke, but....

 Stuff like this is only an approximation. Read today's Dilbert for what the applicant is actually doing.

Seems it has slipped their minds that they still have 125 #6400's to retire though. This is so bass ackwards. It seems they have fell in love with the electric buses. On Silver Streak, Richard Pryor says "he always loses his memory when he falls in love" Maybe this is their problem.