5000-series - Updates

[sw4400]

This looks to be a little concerning despite it being handled without incident...

A couple of mishaps -- one involving brakes... full article here

It doesn't go into exactly what was the problem... no brakes, weak brakes, stuck brakes. Malfunctioning doors are one thing, but malfunctioning brakes are not good.

[busfan2847]

This looks to be a little concerning despite it being handled without incident...

A couple of mishaps -- one involving brakes... full article here

It doesn't go into exactly what was the problem... no brakes, weak brakes, stuck brakes. Malfunctioning doors are one thing, but malfunctioning brakes are not good.

The following is taken from Tracy Swatz report in Red Eye:-

"The maiden voyage was supposed to begin at 7:30 a.m. Riders and rail enthusiasts with cameras piled onto the train. And then ... nothing. The brakes in one of the cars wouldn't release so the riders shuffled off and got onto a regular Red Line car.

The train took off about 10 minutes later with a new set of riders. Riders remarked favorably on the smoother ride and the new features including security cameras, electronic signs and a map with a red dot that told riders where they are at in the system.

"

[BusHunter]

This looks to be a little concerning despite it being handled without incident...

A couple of mishaps -- one involving brakes... full article here

It doesn't go into exactly what was the problem... no brakes, weak brakes, stuck brakes. Malfunctioning doors are one thing, but malfunctioning brakes are not good.

The brakes were squealing yesterday when the train stopped. Maybe that would be normal on a new train, but these have been broke in now for 9 months.

[jajuan]

This looks to be a little concerning despite it being handled without incident...

A couple of mishaps -- one involving brakes... full article here

It doesn't go into exactly what was the problem... no brakes, weak brakes, stuck brakes. Malfunctioning doors are one thing, but malfunctioning brakes are not good.

Better to find out now what potential problems may be with just 10 cars around than say later when there may be about 400 initially. That is the whole point of doing test runs. To find out what issues might arise so that they can be addressed before going ahead with full production. Everything isn't going to be 100% starting out. If it were, it wouldn't be a need to do any test runs with passengers to see how things go with real people. The good thing about it is the problem got resolved without anyone coming to harm.

[jajuan]

Why did the CTA choose to go with the electronic system map? While this feature is nice and represents a futuristic feature, I fell it is costly to maintain and update. What happens when a stop is added to the system? How much will it cost the CTA to update these electronic maps compared to changing out the plastic cards?

Wouldn't it be matter of programming on the electronic map as opposed to taking the time and money of mass producing a bunch of plastic placards?

[Busjack]

Why did the CTA choose to go with the electronic system map? While this feature is nice and represents a futuristic feature, I fell it is costly to maintain and update. What happens when a stop is added to the system? How much will it cost the CTA to update these electronic maps compared to changing out the plastic cards?

Wouldn't it be matter of programming on the electronic map as opposed to taking the time and money of mass producing a bunch of plastic placards?

I thought 630 had a valid question to which I don't have the answer.

I note, in 630's defense, that, for instance, if the Oakton stop is opened (which it probably will be in two years), not only would CTA have to replace the map, but somehow get an LED for the new stop onto all of its 5000 series cars (at least if it wanted consistency). It doesn't look from the various galleries (see, for example, here, from the CTA Tattler) like the sign panel is just a flat screen monitor that one can just reprogram.

[Scionic]

I thought 630 had a valid question to which I don't have the answer.

I note, in 630's defense, that, for instance, if the Oakton stop is opened (which it probably will be in two years), not only would CTA have to replace the map, but somehow get an LED for the new stop onto all of its 5000 series cars (at least if it wanted consistency). It doesn't look from the various galleries (see, for example, here, from the CTA Tattler) like the sign panel is just a flat screen monitor that one can just reprogram.

I was puzzling over this myself. It looks to me like there is a standard grid of LEDs behind the sign, similar to the grid of LEDs on the destination signs on the buses and 5000-series. Then they just align the holes in the sign to those LEDs on the grid. For example, check out this shot.

For example, look at the spacing of the stops on the Purple Line, and then the spacing of the stops on the Red Line between Loyola and Sheridan. It looks fine on the Purple Line, but they really look jammed in there on the Red Line due to the tight spacing. Also, if you draw a straight line between Skokie, Montrose, and the various Pulaskis, you'll see they are perfectly in line with each other.

So basically, updating the map would just require they print up a new plastic card and bolt it in place, and then program the sign to activate that particular LED. It would also explain why there are so many screws holding everything down. If they used the current plastic cards, the sign and the LEDs behind would be out of alignment in a matter of minutes!

On the other hand, it looks like they printed up that card a while ago. They had to put Accessible stickers on a number of stations, and it looks like they initially had the Purple Line going around the Loop in the other direction. They changed about a year ago, if I remember right. There's also a sticker over the Washington Red Line stop.

[Guest ctafan630]

I note, in 630's defense, that, for instance, if the Oakton stop is opened (which it probably will be in two years), not only would CTA have to replace the map, but somehow get an LED for the new stop onto all of its 5000 series cars (at least if it wanted consistency). It doesn't look from the various galleries (see, for example, here, from the CTA Tattler) like the sign panel is just a flat screen monitor that one can just reprogram.

And that is what I was getting at but I was thinking of the new Morgan stop on the green line. Somehow the CTA would have to add another electronic dot to each of these signs. Unless there is an easy way of doing it, I still feel it is easier to make and replace all the plastic cards than it would be to take down these new "You are here" signs and somehow add another "light up dot" to the existing screen.

Since these cars will be around for approximately 30 years, it is almost a given that the CTA will add stations and routes to the mix.

[Guest ctafan630]

For example, look at the spacing of the stops on the Purple Line, and then the spacing of the stops on the Red Line between Loyola and Sheridan. It looks fine on the Purple Line, but they really look jammed in there on the Red Line due to the tight spacing. Also, if you draw a straight line between Skokie, Montrose, and the various Pulaskis, you'll see they are perfectly in line with each other.

So basically, updating the map would just require they print up a new plastic card and bolt it in place, and then program the sign to activate that particular LED. It would also explain why there are so many screws holding everything down. If they used the current plastic cards, the sign and the LEDs behind would be out of alignment in a matter of minutes!

You might be right. However I still feel this is one of those "Nice to have features". With all the financial problems the CTA is having, these "moving you are here" signs is something that could have been left out. As you have stated, the CTA would still have to replace the plastic card over the lighted dots but now there is more work involved. Without all the automated announcements and now the electronic LED displays repeating the next stop annoucements, are these "moving you are here" signs really a necessity?

Also as we all can testify to, any electronic display will break. I am waiting for the LED destination signs to break and then people will be complaining they do not know which train is pulling into the station.

[Scionic]

You might be right. However I still feel this is one of those "Nice to have features". With all the financial problems the CTA is having, these "moving you are here" signs is something that could have been left out. As you have stated, the CTA would still have to replace the plastic card over the lighted dots but now there is more work involved. Without all the automated announcements and now the electronic LED displays repeating the next stop annoucements, are these "moving you are here" signs really a necessity?

Also as we all can testify to, any electronic display will break. I am waiting for the LED destination signs to break and then people will be complaining they do not know which train is pulling into the station.

True, but I have to believe that the LED signs will be more reliable than the mylar scrollers. There's not a day goes by that I pass a Blue Line train on the Kennedy that says it's simultaneously going to O'Hare, Forest Park, and Skokie or something like that. At least they don't have flatpanel LCD displays like New York that all seem to have cracked LCD panels or are just shut off or something.

[Guest ctafan630]

True, but I have to believe that the LED signs will be more reliable than the mylar scrollers. There's not a day goes by that I pass a Blue Line train on the Kennedy that says it's simultaneously going to O'Hare, Forest Park, and Skokie or something like that.

Technically with the roller signs it isn't suppose to happen but it does. Can we have the same problems with the LED displays?

[Busjack]

Technically with the roller signs it isn't suppose to happen but it does. Can we have the same problems with the LED displays?

It depends where the controller is for the LED sign. One would assume that the controller in the active cab would control all, and hence, probably not.

I do not know what causes the roll signs to stop at a given reading, but I have seen, such as when a train decided to go express from Morse to Bryn Mawr, that one of the rollers,when trying to go back to "95th" just kept scrolling up and down.

The problem with LED signs probably would be the same as on the bus headsign: when a panel goes out, it's shot.

[jajuan]

I thought 630 had a valid question to which I don't have the answer.

I note, in 630's defense, that, for instance, if the Oakton stop is opened (which it probably will be in two years), not only would CTA have to replace the map, but somehow get an LED for the new stop onto all of its 5000 series cars (at least if it wanted consistency). It doesn't look from the various galleries (see, for example, here, from the CTA Tattler) like the sign panel is just a flat screen monitor that one can just reprogram.

Ok the LED stop indicators are actually underneath a placard of the system map. Now I see where 630's question comes in. However, thinking a little bit on it I'd have to agree with the post that the LED features should be more reliable than the roller signs in terms of that exampe given of a train simultaneously showing one destination on one car and a destination from the opposite end of that rail line on a different car of the train. I'm of the mind that given the recent service reductions, it doesn't hurt to show riders that CTA values their use of service.

[Scionic]

Caught the new train last night out of Howard, I was in car 5003. I'm impressed. I'm still not exactly sold on the idea of longitudinal seating, and neither were many other people, based on their grumbling. The seats the CTA uses in the buses/trains were apparently designed for children or human torsos with no arms, and Chicago has a lot of, um... big people in it. I guess at the very least, they put bars every 2 seats, which should at least force people to keep it within a seat or two instead of just kind of plopping themselves down wherever.

On the other hand, the new seating makes the train look much more spacious than it did before. The lighting is much brighter, and they finally got rid of that infernal wood grain, so the train looks much more up to date than anything else. They also got rid of the vestibule by the doors at the lead end of each car, so there's a whole lot more space to mill around there, too. I think the 3200s are like that too, but it feels a lot more spacious in the 5000s.

The ride quality is I think the most impressive part. Unlike the DC trains which have several discrete power settings, the AC trains have theoretically infinite power points. As a result, when the motorman floors it, you can feel the power gradually roll on instead of just slamming to full throttle. The suspension seems to be much smoother, but that may have been all in my head. It seemed quieter, at least. And the "leaning bus" feature when the train in the station is kind of neat, too. It seemed like the motormen were struggling to get a feel for the brake performance of the new train. The train I was on kept underrunning the platform by a few feet, resulting in the train stopping short and sneaking into the station. Not sure if this is related to the new GPS-based operation of the digital signage, or what?

I'm curious to see the 5000s tested on the Blue Line. Going through the subways in a 2200 series is kind of like taking a trip straight through a war zone to get to your destination, IMO. It's so loud and shaky that you're not quite sure you're going to get where you're going!

[Busjack]

It seemed like the motormen were struggling to get a feel for the brake performance of the new train. The train I was on kept underrunning the platform by a few feet, resulting in the train stopping short and sneaking into the station. Not sure if this is related to the new GPS-based operation of the digital signage, or what?

Since you said there was a motorman, I doubt that gps has anything to do with it, since it apparently doesn't have automated control like the faulty WMATA system, and probably not a NAV screen like your neighbor's Lincoln MkS.

The more likely explanation is that it has a greater braking rate with the regenerative braking, and the operators are not used to that. I thought someone commented similarly about the hybrid buses.

[sprout78]

Caught the new train last night out of Howard, I was in car 5003. I'm impressed. I'm still not exactly sold on the idea of longitudinal seating, and neither were many other people, based on their grumbling. The seats the CTA uses in the buses/trains were apparently designed for children or human torsos with no arms, and Chicago has a lot of, um... big people in it. I guess at the very least, they put bars every 2 seats, which should at least force people to keep it within a seat or two instead of just kind of plopping themselves down wherever.

On the other hand, the new seating makes the train look much more spacious than it did before. The lighting is much brighter, and they finally got rid of that infernal wood grain, so the train looks much more up to date than anything else. They also got rid of the vestibule by the doors at the lead end of each car, so there's a whole lot more space to mill around there, too. I think the 3200s are like that too, but it feels a lot more spacious in the 5000s.

The ride quality is I think the most impressive part. Unlike the DC trains which have several discrete power settings, the AC trains have theoretically infinite power points. As a result, when the motorman floors it, you can feel the power gradually roll on instead of just slamming to full throttle. The suspension seems to be much smoother, but that may have been all in my head. It seemed quieter, at least. And the "leaning bus" feature when the train in the station is kind of neat, too. It seemed like the motormen were struggling to get a feel for the brake performance of the new train. The train I was on kept underrunning the platform by a few feet, resulting in the train stopping short and sneaking into the station. Not sure if this is related to the new GPS-based operation of the digital signage, or what?

I'm curious to see the 5000s tested on the Blue Line. Going through the subways in a 2200 series is kind of like taking a trip straight through a war zone to get to your destination, IMO. It's so loud and shaky that you're not quite sure you're going to get where you're going!

I was able to catch the northbound run on my way home from work. I will say that on paper, and thinking about it I wasn't too keen on sitting sideways. Myself, sitting sideways on a bus, I tend to get a little motion sick and I figured the same would be true here. However my thoughts are as follows; first, this was a rush hour train, and quite packed. Not a single person on board seemed to mind the seating. In addition, it was much easier to board, as standing passengers were not crowded in the door way, instead they were spread throughout the train. Overall it was a much more comfortable trip, with much more space, and freedom to move into, and off of the train. When I was actually able to get a seat, sitting sideways didn't bother me so much as it does on a bus, I suppose as it isn't typically stopping and going so frequently. However, I hope that the CTA chooses to have the final product delivered with the new style seating used on the stimulus NF's, as they are much nicer than the old style seats.

On a note also discussed above regarding the new LED Maps, I'm not sure that these are a needed expense. Having ridden trains in NY, one will notice that they use a similar map for their routes, however it is a route map not system wide map. This, makes a bit more sense there as equipment isn't changed between routes as it can or is here in Chicago. The map is also quite larger in NYC, taking up most length of the rail car, and thus visible to all. The one's being used here of course here is a system wide map, as one never really knows when CTA may move car's around between lines. I would also point out that the map is very small, and really only visible for those seated or standing in the middle of the rail car. Yes it looks nice, but I don't see a need for it really as the regular system maps are already posted above doors as they are now in every other rail car. It just adds additional expense to modify should stops or line be added or changed.

[Guest ctafan630]

It depends where the controller is for the LED sign. One would assume that the controller in the active cab would control all, and hence, probably not.

Isn't that the way it is supposed to be with the current roller signs? The signs are controlled by the active cab, but for one reason or another some cars operate with a mind of their own.

The problem with LED signs probably would be the same as on the bus headsign: when a panel goes out, it's shot.

Hence the need for the paper route signs soon to be posted on the train cars.

[Vinny]

On the other hand, it looks like they printed up that card a while ago. They had to put Accessible stickers on a number of stations, and it looks like they initially had the Purple Line going around the Loop in the other direction. They changed about a year ago, if I remember right. There's also a sticker over the Washington Red Line stop.

And, for some reason, a sticker over Forest Park, as can be seen here.

[Scionic]

Since you said there was a motorman, I doubt that gps has anything to do with it, since it apparently doesn't have automated control like the faulty WMATA system, and probably not a NAV screen like your neighbor's Lincoln MkS.

The more likely explanation is that it has a greater braking rate with the regenerative braking, and the operators are not used to that. I thought someone commented similarly about the hybrid buses.

I know this is probably the case, but I noticed that after they creeped the train up a few feet, the LED displays at the end of each car popped from "Whatever is Next" to "This is Whatever". Then again, that very well could have been triggered by the doors opening. I could be wrong, but I thought I saw the signs change before the doors opened in some cases.

Hence the need for the paper route signs soon to be posted on the train cars.

They had paper maps of both the entire L System and just the Red Line posted above the doors. Sounds like this is a recent change?

[sprout78]

Isn't that the way it is supposed to be with the current roller signs? The signs are controlled by the active cab, but for one reason or another some cars operate with a mind of their own.

Well true, keep in mind your talking about technology that involves mechanical parts moving. These parts may fail over time. As there wouldn’t be moving parts on an LED sign failure would be less frequent but I’m sure yes it could happen, technology is not perfect. Maybe I’m wrong but in case of the blue line showing wrong destination signs, I believe they changed content of them not long ago when adding Jefferson park and UIC Halstead short runs, thus if a person hasn’t changed the physical roll sign, it’s not likely going to show the correct destination. As there isn’t any physical object to change this wouldn’t be an issue in an LED sign.

[Busjack]

Isn't that the way it is supposed to be with the current roller signs? The signs are controlled by the active cab, but for one reason or another some cars operate with a mind of their own.

The deal there is that the roll signs are operated by a motor, and hence prone to breakdown. As I said earlier, I don't know what makes the motor stop at the "95th" reading, but sometimes it doesn't. On the other hand, all a controller for a digital sign can do is send a command to show characters in a certain font, translated to a pattern of LEDs.

I know this is probably the case, but I noticed that after they creeped the train up a few feet, the LED displays at the end of each car popped from "Whatever is Next" to "This is Whatever". Then again, that very well could have been triggered by the doors opening. I could be wrong, but I thought I saw the signs change before the doors opened in some cases.

I guess what might have been missing is the proper cause and effect. As Kevin pointed out, a combination of gps and an odometer control the signs and announcements. That must be precisely programmed enough that the train has to reach the platform to switch them.

Getting back to the one controller issue, someone reported on a Metra board that some announcements (which are gps controlled on Metra) played twice, and the explanation there was that the gps in two cabs was on.

They had paper maps of both the entire L System and just the Red Line posted above the doors. Sounds like this is a recent change?

As far as I remember, that was the case going back at least to the green and white 6000s in the 60s. The one for the Yellow Line is "real informative" since there basically is a yellow arc with two dots.

[Scionic]

As far as I remember, that was the case going back at least to the green and white 6000s in the 60s. The one for the Yellow Line is "real informative" since there basically is a yellow arc with two dots.

The Yellow Line was my first experience with the L. I nearly died laughing at the "map". You know there has to be that one guy who still has trouble understanding it though.

[dauber]

Curious -- did the 5000 train (run #806) run this morning??? The whole trip southbound to work, didn't pass it at all.

[jajuan]

Well true, keep in mind your talking about technology that involves mechanical parts moving. These parts may fail over time. As there wouldn’t be moving parts on an LED sign failure would be less frequent but I’m sure yes it could happen, technology is not perfect. Maybe I’m wrong but in case of the blue line showing wrong destination signs, I believe they changed content of them not long ago when adding Jefferson park and UIC Halstead short runs, thus if a person hasn’t changed the physical roll sign, it’s not likely going to show the correct destination. As there isn’t any physical object to change this wouldn’t be an issue in an LED sign.

Which makes me more inclined to say while I can understand the argument about the system maps with the LED indicator showing the the trains' location along a rail route, I don't really go with extending the money argument to the LED destination signs vs the roller signs. LED signs are more versatile for cases of brand new short turns or extensions implemented on a route by programming that destination into a controller whereas a roller sign would have to be completely replaced in every car uses one to add those new destinations on top of making adjustments to the controller for a roller sign.

[Guest ctafan630]

They had paper maps of both the entire L System and just the Red Line posted above the doors. Sounds like this is a recent change?

No I was referring to having a handmade paper sign saying Red Line to Howard on the front of the train when the LED displays don't work. You know like you see on the front window of a bus when the LED destination sign is blank.