7000-series - Delivery & Updates

[sw4400]

Too bad they wouldn't consider buying trains that are similar to the London Underground's S stock trains.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S7_and_S8_Stock

They look really modern and have features that CTA could benefit from like selective door operation. That could enable them to use 10 car trains and not need all 10 car platforms. The interior is really star trekky and modern with it's articulated design it would enable riders to freely flow between cars of a train. This actually does look like a modern train. Bombardier builds it and the S8 has some transverse seating. London Underground actually has several routes that are automated with no driver. I would be looking into that technology to see if a retrofit could be possible, thinking of the future, but the London Underground sounds like they just replace the signalling to achieve that. Interesting.

I don't know why people are insistent on 10-car trains for the CTA. The infrastructure is not set up for it, even for just one line(line the Red Line, which is shared on the North Side Main Line with the Brown and Purple). And not having platforms that are equal length can cause delays, be dangerous and even fatal. Here's how....

• Train with 10-cars pulls into an 8-car berth station. Rail Operator has to cut off door power to the cars not berthed. Let out cars 1-8, pull the train up and stop, power the doors to the cars cut off and let them out(but now you got cars 1 & 2 out of the station, and if someone realizes suddenly this is their stop and decides to leave those non-berthed cars without realizing the car is not berthed, there's a injury/fatality there). Another possibility is people waiting in cars 9 & 10 don't want to wait and forget the cars are not berthed, pull the cherry(this has been done before with impatient passengers), and now you got a scene where potentially multiple people have fallen over 20 feet from an elevated structure to the ground and are severely injured/dead. Train is now stopped where it is for a medical emergency.

You need to think safety before an idea like this is implemented..... 10-car trains need 10-car stations. When Metra has a 10-car train, car 1 is the engine, car 2 right immediately behind the engine is not available to passengers(maybe for crew, that one is never berthed or used). Cars 3-10 are the ones used for passengers.

 

 

 

[briman94]

I don't know why people are insistent on 10-car trains for the CTA. The infrastructure is not set up for it, even for just one line(line the Red Line, which is shared on the North Side Main Line with the Brown and Purple). And not having platforms that are equal length can cause delays, be dangerous and even fatal. Here's how....

• Train with 10-cars pulls into an 8-car berth station. Rail Operator has to cut off door power to the cars not berthed. Let out cars 1-8, pull the train up and stop, power the doors to the cars cut off and let them out(but now you got cars 1 & 2 out of the station, and if someone decides to leave those non-berthed cars without realizing the car is not berthed realizing suddenly this is their stop, there's a injury/fatality there). Another possibility is people waiting in cars 9 & 10 don't want to wait and forget the cars are not berthed, pull the cherry(this has been done before), and now you got a scene where potentially multiple people have fallen over 20 feet from an elevated structure to the ground and are severely injured/dead. Train is now stopped where it is for a medical emergency.

You need to think safety before an idea like this is implemented..... 10-car trains need 10-car stations. When Metra has a 10-car train, car 1 is the engine, car 2 right immediately behind the engine is not available to passengers(maybe for crew, that one is never berthed or used). Cars 3-10 are the ones used for passengers.

 

 

 

In addition, it really wouldn't benefit the system much. More trains more often, even if they have less cars, is the way to optimize rapid transit. It's even in the name: rapid.

[Busjack]

I don't know why people are insistent on 10-car trains for the CTA. The infrastructure is not set up for it, even for just one line(line the Red Line, which is shared on the North Side Main Line with the Brown and Purple). And not having platforms that are equal length can cause delays, be dangerous and even fatal. Here's how....

• Train with 10-cars pulls into an 8-car berth station. Rail Operator has to cut off door power to the cars not berthed. Let out cars 1-8, pull the train up and stop, power the doors to the cars cut off and let them out(but now you got cars 1 & 2 out of the station, and if someone realizes suddenly this is their stop and decides to leave those non-berthed cars without realizing the car is not berthed, there's a injury/fatality there). Another possibility is people waiting in cars 9 & 10 don't want to wait and forget the cars are not berthed, pull the cherry(this has been done before with impatient passengers), and now you got a scene where potentially multiple people have fallen over 20 feet from an elevated structure to the ground and are severely injured/dead. Train is now stopped where it is for a medical emergency.

You need to think safety before an idea like this is implemented..... 10-car trains need 10-car stations. When Metra has a 10-car train, car 1 is the engine, car 2 right immediately behind the engine is not available to passengers(maybe for crew, that one is never berthed or used). Cars 3-10 are the ones used for passengers.

 

 

 

They wouldn't do it unless the platforms are of a given minimum length, and essentially you are arguing the strawman that they would do 10 car trains with 8 car platforms.

The only benefits to doing it is if a certain amount of 10 car trains would tie up the signal system less than the same number of cars in 8 car trains, and, of course, whether a one man crew could operate a 10 car train. In either event, the question is whether the purported 25% increase in capacity without a corresponding increase in cost is real.

[BusHunter]

 

You need to think safety before an idea like this is implemented..... 10-car trains need 10-car stations. When Metra has a 10-car train, car 1 is the engine, car 2 right immediately behind the engine is not available to passengers(maybe for crew, that one is never berthed or used). Cars 3-10 are the ones used for passengers.

 

 

 

What's to keep someone from pulling the cherry while between the stations? nothing. so how safe is that? The london system probably wouldn't work here, they would have to switch out the doors on those cars. While not impossible, nightmares of '58, the streetcar accident on state where people were trapped to their demise, wouldn't allow it most likely. (That's why we have cherries) But what would be the sense in Wilson being 10 cars then, they basically have a part of the station they can't use for many years.

[sw4400]

22 hours ago, briman94 said:

I agree. I'm anxiously awaiting the 7000s, which will have full-color LCD monitors inside that display live maps and other information.

I wouldn't anticipate any big mods for the 7000's. Look at the list that was expected for the 5000's

Posted 26 Sep 2009 · Report post

  On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2009‎ ‎11‎:‎41‎:‎50‎, Kevin said:

When Huberman ordered the extensive interior and exterior design changes to the cars, there was a mention that those changes might not be implemented in the prototype cars.

Not only won't many of the Huberman-proposed changes be in the prototypes, they won't make it into the final order. Sources said that the changes would have resulted in even more delays and tens, if not hundreds, more millions of dollars.

Here's a list of some of the design changes he told the Tattler about more than a year ago. Most changes have been jettisoned.

# Recessed lighting. - Nope

# Reading lights. - Nope

# Six 9-inch TV screens in each car, rotating CTA info and advertising. - Nope, way too expensive and would require significant electrical design changes

# No more advertising cards -- the small TVs are replacing all paper ad cards. - Wrong

# Computerized Internet controls mean no more herky-jerky rides. - Not an accurate description, but there will be smoother rides as a result of better computer controls

# A "smart" systems map in the middle of the car pinpointing the train's current location. - Not sure if this is in the prototype

# The same number of seats arranged longitudinally to allow for more standing room. - True

# A padded "butt perch" in the area where a wheelchair would go so if there was no disabled passenger onboard, other passengers could rest against the padded perch. - Nope

# Security cameras in each car. - Probably not in the prototype, but in the final delivery

Not noted on this list, but some of the exterior cosmetic design changes Huberman proposed are not on the two cars that were delivered Friday. (The two-toned swirly design on the upper half of the exterior that can be seen in the rendering linked here was not visible on the delivered cars)

Look at some of the things expected with the 5000's that didn't get added due to costs and delays of receiving the railcars. CTA has adopted the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) method for bus and railcar purchases for years. Buses and Railcars will be procured with basic amenities but won't get too luxurious... it's cheaper to print ads and put them up instead of maintaining TV monitors, for example.

[Busjack]

3 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

...

Look at some of the things expected with the 5000's that didn't get added due to costs and delays of receiving the railcars.

The point isn't what was logged here about the 5000s, but what is in the specs for the 7000s, which Briman and I have read.

The LCD screens are definitely in there.

Now there are various other alternatives in the 7000s specs (such as for doors) which have not been selected yet, and in fact a prevailing bidder has not been announced yet, but it is fallacious to assume that the 7000s spec is essentially the 5000s spec.--so much was said when the first proposals were thrown out.

[briman94]

10 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The point isn't what was logged here about the 5000s, but what is in the specs for the 7000s, which Briman and I have read.

The LCD screens are definitely in there.

Now there are various other alternatives in the 7000s specs (such as for doors) which have not been selected yet, and in fact a prevailing bidder has not been announced yet, but it is fallacious to assume that the 7000s spec is essentially the 5000s spec.--so much was said when the first proposals were thrown out.

Exactly; the 5000s were designed in the early 2000s when LCD screens and even LED screens were very expensive. Now the spec for the 7000s requires LCD screens inside; there was no "alternates proposal" for that part. They will have LCD screens, which have drastically come down in price since the 5000s were designed.

[Busjack]

There is a procurement for Letters of Interest & Qualifications (LIQ) for Engineering Consulting Services - Series 7000 Rapid Transit Cars.

The scope is assisting the Rail Engineer in the review and audit from design through delivery, rather than selection of the vendor and options. However, it includes project phases:

3/16	Board approval
4/16	Notice to proceed
10/19	Delivery of prototypes
11/20	Start production deliveries
10/27	End deliveries if options for all 846 cars are exercised

Production of option 1 would start Oct 2021, and Option 2 March 2022. These are to replace the 3200s.Not really indicated when deliveries would start and end,but the assumption is a minimum of 10 and maximum of 14 cars/month.

[garmon757]

On December 25, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Busjack said:

There is a procurement for Letters of Interest & Qualifications (LIQ) for Engineering Consulting Services - Series 7000 Rapid Transit Cars.

The scope is assisting the Rail Engineer in the review and audit from design through delivery, rather than selection of the vendor and options. However, it includes project phases:

3/16	Board approval
4/16	Notice to proceed
10/19	Delivery of prototypes
11/20	Start production deliveries
10/27	End deliveries if options for all 846 cars are exercised

Production of option 1 would start Oct 2021, and Option 2 March 2022. These are to replace the 3200s.Not really indicated when deliveries would start and end,but the assumption is a minimum of 10 and maximum of 14 cars/month.

Hell, my kids will be in high school if this timeline stands!  

Aren't they supposed to pick the bidder by now unless that's delayed???

[Busjack]

18 minutes ago, garmon757 said:

Hell, my kids will be in high school if this timeline stands!  

Aren't they supposed to pick the bidder by now unless that's delayed???

The schedule said Board Approval 3/16 so it would be shortly before that when it is announced, or that day that the board announced the contract. That assumes that the schedule will be followed.

[Juniorz]

On 12/25/2015 at 7:19 PM, Busjack said:

There is a procurement for Letters of Interest & Qualifications (LIQ) for Engineering Consulting Services - Series 7000 Rapid Transit Cars.

The scope is assisting the Rail Engineer in the review and audit from design through delivery, rather than selection of the vendor and options. However, it includes project phases:

3/16	Board approval
4/16	Notice to proceed
10/19	Delivery of prototypes
11/20	Start production deliveries
10/27	End deliveries if options for all 846 cars are exercised

Production of option 1 would start Oct 2021, and Option 2 March 2022. These are to replace the 3200s.Not really indicated when deliveries would start and end,but the assumption is a minimum of 10 and maximum of 14 cars/month.

The contract has been delayed by 3 years, the 7000 prototypes were supposed to be here in 2016

[Busjack]

4 minutes ago, Juniorz said:

The contract has been delayed by 3 years, the 7000 prototypes were supposed to be here in 2016

That became evident when they threw out the bids, also when they decided to put in about $900K per car on the 3200 series rehabs. That wouldn't have paid if they were to be replaced by 2022.

But in effect, 5750 and others will be stewed that the Blue Line is stuck with 2600s for 3 years more than first contemplated.

[sw4400]

Looks like we have the two finalists for the big 7000-Series contract dug up via the press, though CTA won't confirm them as the two, but several media sources say they are.... so here you go.....

• Finalist #1: Bombardier Transit Corporation. The manufacturers of the 5000-Series railcars purchased from 2009-2015 by CTA.
• Finalist #2: CSR America(China South Railway). Not a whole lot known about this company, though they are the ones that recently won a contract to build railcars for Boston.

This might go to CSR, however.... CSR, according to this article, is making a promise to spend $40 million to build a 160-Employee Manufacturing Facility on the Southeast side of Chicago, which would bring the manufacturing to Chicago, create jobs and lessen cost of trailer-transit from Plattsburgh to Chicago.

Full article link below....

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20160220/ISSUE05/302209995/whats-really-going-down-with-the-ctas-big-rail-car-deal

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

50 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

• ...Finalist #2: CSR America(China South Railway). Not a whole lot known about this company, though they are the ones that recently won a contract to build railcars for Boston....

I know of CSR because they merged with CNR, which built Hong Kong's first "domestic" (Chinese built) subway cars. They are also working to replace more subway cars there, and you are correct, the company is working on subway cars for Boston. Together, both companies have more subsidiaries than I can count. Because of that, their list of projects is impressive. They have built subway cars for Argentina, Singapore, Mainland China, and Turkey, as well as EMU commuter rail cars for Argentina.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, sw4400 said:

Looks like we have the two finalists for the big 7000-Series contract dug up via the press, though CTA won't confirm them as the two, but several media sources say they are.... so here you go.....

• Finalist #1: Bombardier Transit Corporation. The manufacturers of the 5000-Series railcars purchased from 2009-2015 by CTA.
• Finalist #2: CSR America(China South Railway). Not a whole lot known about this company, though they are the ones that recently won a contract to build railcars for Boston.

This might go to CSR, however.... CSR, according to this article, is making a promise to spend $40 million to build a 160-Employee Manufacturing Facility on the Southeast side of Chicago, which would bring the manufacturing to Chicago, create jobs and lessen cost of trailer-transit from Plattsburgh to Chicago.

Full article link below....

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20160220/ISSUE05/302209995/whats-really-going-down-with-the-ctas-big-rail-car-deal

Good find.

I'm not so sure CTA could get involved in the quid pro quos stated by Hinz (such  as China financing the airport express in return for the CTA contract), especially given the potential of a protest to the FTA.

Also didn't mention the partnership between Bombardier and Kawasaki mentioned in some addenda,

But CTA said they wanted a world wide procurement and apparently got one. Too bad there don't seem to be any U.S. companies in the business.

[BusHunter]

A picture of the CSR boston cars....

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/business/china-railway-crrc-boston-transit.html

I don't know if I'm too much a fan of that look. Those cars look ugly to me. But a wikipedia search says they designed trains for the JR lines in Japan which is impressive. The Argentina cars don't look too bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSR_Corporation_Limited

They also make some of the cars I believe on TS2016's Just Trains China add ons if we are looking for more comparisons of what they make. Not sure if they are just designing those though.

Overall kind of interesting for CTA, they repackage the bid only to discover the same people are winning bids on it!!

Being that CTA repackaged a bid to try to exclude Bombardier and CSR wants to build a south side manufacturing facility, it sounds like they may be the winner even if they are second. I suppose CTa has a choice of who they can pick, being the lowest bidder doesn't always get the contract especially if they have an ax to grind with Bombardier.

The choice of a white exterior livery is going to have to be modified though unless they want taggers to have some fun. I see the final result looking like something from NY transit.

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I don't know if I'm too much a fan of that look.

It doesn't matter, We know how the CTA cars will look. Essentially the same as the last 965. The winner has to build to the CTA spec, except that the doors might slide outside.

[Pink Jazz]

Interesting that Bombardier is again a finalist.  I thought the whole purpose of re-bidding the contract was to lock out Bombardier.  Yes, I know this is technically illegal, but during the last RFP CTA wasn't happy with either Bombardier's nor Sumitomo/Nippon Sharyo's proposal.

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, Pink Jazz said:

Interesting that Bombardier is again a finalist.  I thought the whole purpose of re-bidding the contract was to lock out Bombardier.  Yes, I know this is technically illegal, but during the last RFP CTA wasn't happy with either Bombardier's nor Sumitomo/Nippon Sharyo's proposal.

So they asked for new proposals,. As you noted, anything else would be illegal., Maybe Bombardier "sharpened its pencils."

[sw4400]

9 hours ago, Pink Jazz said:

Interesting that Bombardier is again a finalist.  I thought the whole purpose of re-bidding the contract was to lock out Bombardier.  Yes, I know this is technically illegal, but during the last RFP CTA wasn't happy with either Bombardier's nor Sumitomo/Nippon Sharyo's proposal.

I really don't see the issue with Bombardier and the 5000-Series cars. Was there an issue with the railcars due to brake failure and wheel truing that could've caused a derailment early on? Yes, but unlike certain other manufacturers *cough* NABI *cough, Bombardier fixed the issue at hand by terminating the Chinese supplier of the wheel equipment and going with another Chinese supplier or a German supplier for the wheels. Also, if I recall correctly they added 5709-5714 to the order to make up for the delays and bad workmanship in the beginning(originally, the order was 5001-5708). It's not like Bombardier said to CTA "Oh well, it's not our problem. You get what you pay for.... now where's my money???", like that other company did.

[garmon757]

43 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

Also, if I recall correctly they added 5709-5714 to the order to make up for the delays and bad workmanship in the beginning(originally, the order was 5001-5708).

It was 5001-5706. They added 8 more.

[Juniorz]

Well look, all the madness will end either on March 9th or April 6th, we'll learn sooner or later. I'm actually leaning on Bombardier for this bid, this way the cta can have one consist manufacturer, re-establish their relationship (especially after the journal bearings situation) and get that train maintenance facility built on the southeast side (most likely the Jackson Park area). These are Rahm's cars, so if he's going play this right, he would continue that working, established relationship with Bombardier. 

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, sw4400 said:

Also, if I recall correctly they added 5709-5714 to the order to make up for the delays and bad workmanship in the beginning(originally, the order was 5001-5708).

No, you don't recall correctly. Besides the original order being for 5706, the extra 8 were because CTA turned some prepaid amenities for the cars into more cars.

But slander any contractor, if you want.

[Mr.cta85]

So if Bombarider gets the contract "again" to build the 7000 series, my question is will they be able to train with the 5000's even after cta changed the order saying the 7000's didn't have to be compatable? Im thinking if Bombarider gets the contract might as make make them compatable right??

[Busjack]

7 hours ago, Juniorz said:

Well look, all the madness will end either on March 9th or April 6th, we'll learn sooner or later. I'm actually leaning on Bombardier for this bid, this way the cta can have one consist manufacturer, re-establish their relationship (especially after the journal bearings situation) and get that train maintenance facility built on the southeast side (most likely the Jackson Park area). These are Rahm's cars, so if he's going play this right, he would continue that working, established relationship with Bombardier. 

First you misread the article. It was CSR that promised the facility, according to Crain's: "but in its brochure CSR promises to spend $40 million to build a 160-employee manufacturing facility on the Southeast Side." Rahm needs the jobs.

Maybe you had it confused with the no bid deal that got derailed for Bombardier to rebuild the 3200s into AC cars at the 63rd Lower Yard.

Aside from the above blown deal, Rahm has no investment in Bombardier cars. The contract was let in 2006. The only thing said during Emanuel's time was that they won't change the seats.

_______

* I bet the proposal is similar to the Boston one, where not only the Chinese underbid Bombardier, but promised to build an assembly plant in Springfield, MA (Railway Gazette)