8350-series Nova LFS - Updates

[Shannoncvpi]

8388 sign broke already it's on the 29 with a sheet of paper in the windshield for 29 but the sign stuck on 171 

[YoungBusLover]

With recent news of Nova Bus pulling out of the US at the end of 2025, I wonder if that will have any impacts on the current production order.

[Busjack]

19 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

With recent news of Nova Bus pulling out of the US at the end of 2025, I wonder if that will have any impacts on the current production order.

There's a contract with 3 options left, which Nova Bus theoretically has to fulfill. If it closes down before then, history indicates they will have to assign it to someone else, like when Flxible went out of business.

i wonder how eager Nova will be to complete the 6 electric bus order, considering that Toronto and Montreal now has them booked up, and there is little need to demonstrate the LFSe here.

Only hint on Nova Bus's site is:

Quote

Nova Bus will work closely with employees, customers, and suppliers as bus operations in the Plattsburgh facility are planned to continue until the first quarter of 2025.

 

[YoungBusLover]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

There's a contract with 3 options left, which Nova Bus theoretically has to fulfill. If it closes down before then, history indicates they will have to assign it to someone else, like when Flxible went out of business.

i wonder how eager Nova will be to complete the 6 electric bus order, considering that Toronto and Montreal now has them booked up, and there is little need to demonstrate the LFSe here.

Only hint on Nova Bus's site is:

 

A hint is all I needed to see, I'll go out on a limb and guess that CTA will pivot towards renegotiating the type of buses they want to be produced going forward depending on the current status of the next 3 options.  I assume everything up to #8570 is complete with a few more stragglers on the way below that.  After that I would nothing else comes after #8599.

[Bus1883]

42 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

A hint is all I needed to see, I'll go out on a limb and guess that CTA will pivot towards renegotiating the type of buses they want to be produced going forward depending on the current status of the next 3 options.  I assume everything up to #8570 is complete with a few more stragglers on the way below that.  After that I would nothing else comes after #8599.

So this means there won’t be anymore options of the 8350’s I could be wrong but with nova closing the door only a few options out of 5 will make it. Other than that CTA will have to find another bus manufacturer to replace some of the 1000’s.

[Tcmetro]

Nova is contractually obligated to complete the options if CTA requests them. I get the sense that CTA will want the three remaining options as the electric bus plan requires a ton of money that hasn't been identified and because it's basically last call for diesel buses per the state legislation and previous CTA statements. CTA has exercised the two options quicker than I anticipated. I think it's very possible that CTA tries to get all the buses before the shutdown of Nova in early 2025.

I recall that in the case of Orion shutting down, their final Orion VII buses for Seattle were reassigned to New Flyer through an agreement between the involved parties.

[artthouwill]

Correct me if I am wrong,  but I think Nova is closing its Plattsburgh facility, BOT GOING OUT OF BUSINESS.    To the extent that Quebec can handle orders i don't know.   Are there any other plants in Western Canada?  

[YoungBusLover]

On 6/21/2023 at 7:54 PM, artthouwill said:

Correct me if I am wrong,  but I think Nova is closing its Plattsburgh facility, BOT GOING OUT OF BUSINESS.    To the extent that Quebec can handle orders i don't know.   Are there any other plants in Western Canada?  

There should be at least two from my understanding, NovaBus really wants to shift it's priorities back to Canada since they are pretty dominant up there from a sales perspective. 

 

On 6/21/2023 at 7:27 PM, Tcmetro said:

Nova is contractually obligated to complete the options if CTA requests them. I get the sense that CTA will want the three remaining options as the electric bus plan requires a ton of money that hasn't been identified and because it's basically last call for diesel buses per the state legislation and previous CTA statements. CTA has exercised the two options quicker than I anticipated. I think it's very possible that CTA tries to get all the buses before the shutdown of Nova in early 2025.

I recall that in the case of Orion shutting down, their final Orion VII buses for Seattle were reassigned to New Flyer through an agreement between the involved parties.

If Nova attempts to fulfill the other 3 options does it happen in time before the end of 2025? We're not even halfway through the order and as slow as nova produces and delivers it current fleet it may go into early 2026. 

[Tcmetro]

From what I understand the second option is supposed to be delivered by the end of the year. Nova has an order of 308 that is supposed to go to NYC this year too. If they're able to churn that out in a year, I wouldn't be surprised if they could build 300 buses for CTA in 2024 and early 2025.

[Bus1883]

1 hour ago, Tcmetro said:

From what I understand the second option is supposed to be delivered by the end of the year. Nova has an order of 308 that is supposed to go to NYC this year too. If they're able to churn that out in a year, I wouldn't be surprised if they could build 300 buses for CTA in 2024 and early 2025.

I would also say Nova builds at a slow pace. If New Flyer won the contract we would have probably had about 400 buses manufactured and deployed in service by now and the next 100 sometime this year and last 100 to be delivered sometime next year. if CTA had order 600 XD40s for example. Remember when the 1000s came in at a quick pace when they were all brand new, by February 2006. There were already 245 ready to hit service with 20 DE40LFs on order. After that CTA exercised the options up to 1,030. Took them only three years for them all to arrive. I can already see that we may have 8550-8649 beginning delivery this fall or winter and completion by fall 2024 and 8650-8749 at the end of 2024. That could possibly leave about options 4 and 5 sinking in the mud by the time nova closes down two years from now. Hopefully Nova still negotiates with CTA for all options of  600.

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Correct me if I am wrong,  but I think Nova is closing its Plattsburgh facility, BOT GOING OUT OF BUSINESS.    To the extent that Quebec can handle orders i don't know.   Are there any other plants in Western Canada?  

Distinction without a difference, Nova said it's leaving the U.S. Market, and the BUY AMERICA ACT means that buses financed by the feds cannot be assembled in Canada.

 

c

[Busjack]

9 hours ago, Bus1883 said:

I would also say Nova builds at a slow pace. If New Flyer won the contract we would have probably had about 400 buses manufactured and deployed in service by now and the next 100 sometime this year and last 100 to be delivered sometime next year. if CTA had order 600 XD40s for example. Remember when the 1000s came in at a quick pace when they were all brand new, by February 2006. There were already 245 ready to hit service with 20 DE40LFs on order. After that CTA exercised the options up to 1,030. Took them only three years for them all to arrive. I can already see that we may have 8550-8649 beginning delivery this fall or winter and completion by fall 2024 and 8650-8749 at the end of 2024. That could possibly leave about options 4 and 5 sinking in the mud by the time nova closes down two years from now. Hopefully Nova still negotiates with CTA for all options of  600.

Again irrelevant, CTA did not have a base order of 600 buses. It had a base order of 100 buses. and 5 options for 100 buses. The CT Board has only approved 2 options, and no bus manufacturer may start building until it receives a Notice to Proceed, New Flyer learned that when it started producing the 900 artic CTA order and then had to resell the buses and production capacity.

[Mr.NewFlyer1279]

54 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The CT Board has only approved 2 options

only 2? wow i didn’t even know that so i’m guessing we getting up to 8549 and that’s it? orrr

[Tcmetro]

42 minutes ago, Mr.NewFlyer1279 said:

only 2? wow i didn’t even know that so i’m guessing we getting up to 8549 and that’s it? orrr

8350-8449 was the base order; option 1 8450-8549 are under delivery; and option 2 8550-8649 is starting production this month.

It looks like the RTA's new PMO report was uploaded to RTAMS today (this is a database that tracks the progress of the major CTA, Pace, and Metra capital projects). Here's the entry for CTA's Nova buses:
 

Quote

 

Current Status

All 100 buses from the base order have been delivered and placed in service. Under Option 1, 63 of the 100 buses have arrived at CTA and 43 have been placed in service. All 100 buses are expected to be delivered by June 1. CTA has also exercised Option 2 for an additional 100 buses. The production of vehicles under Option 2 is expected to begin in June.

Last Updated 06.22.2023

 

https://rtams.org/capital-projects

 

 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Tcmetro said:

8350-8449 was the base order; option 1 8450-8549 are under delivery; and option 2 8550-8649 is starting production this month.

It looks like the RTA's new PMO report was uploaded to RTAMS today (this is a database that tracks the progress of the major CTA, Pace, and Metra capital projects). Here's the entry for CTA's Nova buses:
 

 

Not mentioned are the 6 electrics that were expected to be delivered to 103rd thus year 

[Ghoul]

1 hour ago, Tcmetro said:

8350-8449 was the base order; option 1 8450-8549 are under delivery; and option 2 8550-8649 is starting production this month.

It looks like the RTA's new PMO report was uploaded to RTAMS today (this is a database that tracks the progress of the major CTA, Pace, and Metra capital projects). Here's the entry for CTA's Nova buses:
 

 

So instead of ending 8549! Is it gonna end to 8649? Now I’m curious and a little confused lol?

[Tcmetro]

4 minutes ago, Ghoul said:

So instead of ending 8549! Is it gonna end to 8649? Now I’m curious and a little confused lol?

The way the contracts are structured, there's usually a base order that has to be committed to and there's options that allow the customer to purchase additional units at rates and specifications for the period of time agreed upon in the contract. Options give flexibility to the customer, but also allow them to lock in prices in the beginning.

In the case of the CTA Noval contract, there was a base order for 100 buses, with five options for 100 buses each. That gives a total potential order of 600 buses. 

CTA has already exercised two options (200 buses) in addition to the base order (100 buses). They still have three options (300 buses) that they haven't exercised. This could put the potential fleet range at 8350-8949.

Some agencies don't exercise all the options in the contract, as they'll typically make the base order for the replacement needs and reserve options for expansion buses. CTA has a lot of buses that need to be replaced, and has said that this is the last diesel bus order. Because of that, I would expect that CTA will purchase all 600 buses. 

[Busjack]

7 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

 

Some agencies don't exercise all the options in the contract, as they'll typically make the base order for the replacement needs and reserve options for expansion buses. CTA has a lot of buses that need to be replaced, and has said that this is the last diesel bus order. Because of that, I would expect that CTA will purchase all 600 buses. 

There are still several flies in that ointment, illustrated by the acceleration of the options on 1630-2029: CTA had to borrow the money for them, and now  we have the situation that CTA keeps saying it wants to avoid--all the buses exceeding their service lives at once. Maybe Nova Bus will do what NF did then--offer CTA an offer too good to refuse and accelerate the options, but then the all electric deadline might have to be moved to 2038.

[Bus1883]

10 hours ago, Busjack said:

Again irrelevant, CTA did not have a base order of 600 buses. It had a base order of 100 buses. and 5 options for 100 buses. The CT Board has only approved 2 options, and no bus manufacturer may start building until it receives a Notice to Proceed, New Flyer learned that when it started producing the 900 artic CTA order and then had to resell the buses and production capacity.

Thanks for the correction 

[jajuan]

On 6/21/2023 at 4:07 PM, YoungBusLover said:

With recent news of Nova Bus pulling out of the US at the end of 2025, I wonder if that will have any impacts on the current production order.

 

On 6/21/2023 at 4:21 PM, Busjack said:

There's a contract with 3 options left, which Nova Bus theoretically has to fulfill. If it closes down before then, history indicates they will have to assign it to someone else, like when Flxible went out of business.

i wonder how eager Nova will be to complete the 6 electric bus order, considering that Toronto and Montreal now has them booked up, and there is little need to demonstrate the LFSe here.

Only hint on Nova Bus's site is:

 

 

On 6/21/2023 at 7:27 PM, Tcmetro said:

Nova is contractually obligated to complete the options if CTA requests them. I get the sense that CTA will want the three remaining options as the electric bus plan requires a ton of money that hasn't been identified and because it's basically last call for diesel buses per the state legislation and previous CTA statements. CTA has exercised the two options quicker than I anticipated. I think it's very possible that CTA tries to get all the buses before the shutdown of Nova in early 2025.

I recall that in the case of Orion shutting down, their final Orion VII buses for Seattle were reassigned to New Flyer through an agreement between the involved parties.

Yeah the article I spotted reported that Nova said it would fulfill its remaining contracts on hand before closing up shop in North Country. So unless CTA moves too slowly in exercising the last remaining contract options or something unforeseen happens on NOVA's end, the last diesel buses CTA gets will be the incoming NOVA buses of this contract.

[YoungBusLover]

#8507 was delivered to SS this morning, forgot to mention that.

[Busjack]

13 hours ago, jajuan said:

 

 

Yeah the article I spotted reported that Nova said it would fulfill its remaining contracts on hand before closing up shop in North Country. So unless CTA moves too slowly in exercising the last remaining contract options or something unforeseen happens on NOVA's end, the last diesel buses CTA gets will be the incoming NOVA buses of this contract.

Source?

The issue is that the CTA plan is to string out the options into 2026 (so that the last diesel bus lasts until 2040), but Nova says the Plattsburg plant will close in 1st Qtr. 2025.

[artthouwill]

31 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Source?

The issue is that the CTA plan is to string out the options into 2026 (so that the last diesel bus lasts until 2040), but Nova says the Plattsburg plant will close in 1st Qtr. 2025.

I suppose yhat CTA could still string out the order, but it would have to all Nova to reassign the last two options for New Flyer to accomplish that. . If CTA jurists in the entire order being Novas, they will have to expedite exercising the options.  I would think they would prefer the former but you never know with them.

[YoungBusLover]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

Source?

The issue is that the CTA plan is to string out the options into 2026 (so that the last diesel bus lasts until 2040), but Nova says the Plattsburg plant will close in 1st Qtr. 2025.

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I suppose yhat CTA could still string out the order, but it would have to all Nova to reassign the last two options for New Flyer to accomplish that. . If CTA jurists in the entire order being Novas, they will have to expedite exercising the options.  I would think they would prefer the former but you never know with them.

This is what I was concerned about as far as the rest of the options are concerned. Will they get signed off for production in time or will CTA have to pivot towards getting the same options completeted by New Flyer or a third party source in the US. Would the order be fulfilled by New Flyer ti completely build Novas or would it be New Flyers that get manufactured and delivered?

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

Would the order be fulfilled by New Flyer ti completely build Novas or would it be New Flyers that get manufactured and delivered?

If the deal were such an assignment, NF would make NFs. Presumably, Volvo would have to pay the difference. (Disregarding subsidiaries like MCI) NF says it makes one type of bus (Xcelsior).