Charging Forward (bus electrification plan)

[Busjack]

This is the place to discuss Charging Forward (link), announced today.

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

This is the place to discuss Charging Forward (link), announced today.

Just was going to link this but you beat me to it. CTA has such lofty goals. It only has 11 buses in service, (not really) the 700s are at SS. The 9 that run, run sparingly. I think the #700's ran more in service than the proterras. The article makes this sound so good, yet it seems like theres a struggle just to run them in service. CTA claims the south and west sides will be prioritized due to pollution. I dont really see all this pollution they are talking about, the city is chasing its corporations away. Gas is getting extremely high in the city, (saw 4.15 with a wash!!) and the economy is going in the tank. Was noticing how much less traffic there is, and if there is no traffic there no pollution. You would swear they dont even know there is a north side to chicago. 

CTA with the high prices of gas, sits in the cat bird seat. They could really cash in on ridership but the service is so poor and undesirable people will just stay in their cars. Theres so many slow zones my god, I could walk faster than that. The stations are all dirty. They run the oldest cars in the off peak. You can just see how service is better in certain parts of the city than others. They need to collectively get there act together or they will remain with a few riders on the train or bus. 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Just was going to link this but you beat me to it. CTA has such lofty goals. It only has 11 buses in service, (not really) the 700s are at SS. The 9 that run, run sparingly. I think the #700's ran more in service than the proterras. The article makes this sound so good, yet it seems like theres a struggle just to run them in service. CTA claims the south and west sides will be prioritized due to pollution. I dont really see all this pollution they are talking about, the city is chasing its corporations away. Gas is getting extremely high in the city, (saw 4.15 with a wash!!) and the economy is going in the tank. Was noticing how much less traffic there is, and if there is no traffic there no pollution. You would swear they dont even know there is a north side to chicago. 

CTA with the high prices of gas, sits in the cat bird seat. They could really cash in on ridership but the service is so poor and undesirable people will just stay in their cars. Theres so many slow zones my god, I could walk faster than that. The stations are all dirty. They run the oldest cars in the off peak. You can just see how service is better in certain parts of the city than others. They need to collectively get there act together or they will remain with a few riders on the train or bus. 

Supposedly studies claim the expressways give off the most pollution and affect African American communities the most.  The South side has 3 expressways (Ryan, Bishop Ford,  and I 57), the west side with the Ike, and the North side with 2 (Kennedy and Edens)   

Again,  the pandemic is very much a factor.  CTA needs staff to operate fully.  If workers are getting sick, getting attacked (and injured) that will affect service.  With fare revenues down,  getting money from anywhere is difficult. 

[Busjack]

48 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Supposedly studies claim the expressways give off the most pollution and affect African American communities the most.  The South side has 3 expressways (Ryan, Bishop Ford,  and I 57), the west side with the Ike, and the North side with 2 (Kennedy and Edens)   

Again,  the pandemic is very much a factor.  CTA needs staff to operate fully.  If workers are getting sick, getting attacked (and injured) that will affect service.  With fare revenues down,  getting money from anywhere is difficult. 

I'll have to take the time to read the document in full. The Sun-Times usually says environmental justice areas are South Chicago (in connection with moving the car shredder) and Pilsen/Little Village (in connection with the implosion at the Crawford station and Sims shredding operation around 24th). But you're right that 95th is a confluence of vehicle emissions.

I did see a prioritization of garages based on equity issues, and believe C was number 1, but I have to go back to it.

[jackathan]

We MIGHT be getting six NovaBus LFSe's delivered to either Chicago and/or 103rd garages. We will see what happens in the near future like next year (2023) or so.

[BusHunter]

22 minutes ago, jackathan said:

We MIGHT be getting six NovaBus LFSe's delivered to either Chicago and/or 103rd garages. We will see what happens in the near future like next year (2023) or so.

Those are going to 103td, but the linked article makes it sound like they are 2 years off. That might be 23 or 24. I dont know 16 years to get 1800 electrics. Thats some lofty goals. Dont even know if elon musk could pull that off. What is that 1.8 billion bucks worth the buses?

[Busjack]

Reading this, it is more on how to make a plan than a plan, but depends on the type of charging (fast/slow, garage/en route) selected and an assessment of garage needs. Some things related to topics discussed in this forum include:

• Length of route: The need for remote chargers depends on the length of the schedule block, defined as the time between a bus leaves and enters the garage (apparently the numbers in @maths22's tracker), and is obviously related to the length of the route. The report assesses how much of the current system is compliant with this requirement, but, unlike the discussion in Bringing Back a Route or Segment, longer is not better.
• Outdoor storage: Possible, but raises issues about heating the buses, so that the batteries and passenger comfort are not compromised.
• Garages: CTA now short storage for 200 bus equivalents (articulated bus is 1.5 equivalents), requiring some combination of a new garage or reconfiguring FG and NP, using property acquired near them. Deferred investment requires  work at all garages, but especially NP, FG, and 77th/South Shops. More garage space may be needed to accommodate charging equipment.
• Equity: The 2 garages that don't have a high equity component are (you guessed it) FG and NP; the rest are about equal.
• Acquisition rate: "Lumpy," and while a whole garage won't be converted at once, a garage worth of buses will have to be acquired by 2026, so that isn't much different from Pace's goal (although Pace is dealing with a smaller garage). CTA's 14 year service life  for buses means no more diesel buses after 2026 (indicating that the current order is the last).

The only safe conclusion: The north side is not going to be first.

[BusHunter]

Only monkey wrench is electric buses dont last 14 years. By then a new model will be out and support for the older model discontinued most likely. 

Frankly I dont see this coming to the north side. Theyll probably have to order something else. Fuel cell buses are dropping in price. About 3/4 the price of electrics. That could be an option for the outdoor garages and there is less infrastructure. 

[strictures]

5 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Supposedly studies claim the expressways give off the most pollution and affect African American communities the most.  The South side has 3 expressways (Ryan, Bishop Ford,  and I 57), the west side with the Ike, and the North side with 2 (Kennedy and Edens)   

Again,  the pandemic is very much a factor.  CTA needs staff to operate fully.  If workers are getting sick, getting attacked (and injured) that will affect service.  With fare revenues down,  getting money from anywhere is difficult. 

When the Ike was built in the early 1950s, it went through almost all white areas.  Same for the I-57 West Leg of the Ryan.

[NovaHater]

I’m thinking they will probably use the property they acquired across from the 95th redline station for charging.  

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Only monkey wrench is electric buses dont last 14 years. By then a new model will be out and support for the older model discontinued most likely.

No such representation was made, If you read the post the diesel bus replacement schedule (and hence the electric bus purchase schedule) was 14 years.Nobody said that the predominant eBus in 2038 will be the XE40, just like nobody could say in 2008 that CTA would have an entire D40LF fleet.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, strictures said:

When the Ike was built in the early 1950s, it went through almost all white areas.  Same for the I-57 West Leg of the Ryan.

But what's the current relevance of that?

46 minutes ago, NovaHater said:

I’m thinking they will probably use the property they acquired across from the 95th redline station for charging.  

The idea behind en route charging is that occurs during relief time. It doesn't do much good for the bus to drop off, then go somewhere else to charge for 10 minutes, and then go back to the bus stop to sit 10 minutes to board passengers.

How does the Navy Pier terminal work?

 

[NovaHater]

That’s exactly what they do at Navy Pier. 

[MetroShadow]

I'm surprised no one has speculated this "New Garage" item listed, either.

It depends on range anxiety (initially, you don't know if you'll maximize the range of the bus due to weather, at least Chicago doesn't have asinine hills like California does). It's not impossible to achieve this plan, but service delivery in the present is lacking, despite the externalities which got folks on transit during the last crunch.

[strictures]

9 hours ago, Busjack said:

But what's the current relevance of that?

Simple, it shows that they didn't deliberately route it through minority areas.

[BusHunter]

12 hours ago, Busjack said:

No such representation was made, If you read the post the diesel bus replacement schedule (and hence the electric bus purchase schedule) was 14 years.Nobody said that the predominant eBus in 2038 will be the XE40, just like nobody could say in 2008 that CTA would have an entire D40LF fleet.

Yes it was, in fact I linked the story. A west coast operator was having difficulty getting parts for Proterras and had benched some buses for an extended length 6 months to a year. It was before your return here. It was I believe one of the first models they produced. But hello chicago hello, what has not heen driving the streets of chicago lately?  So there appears to be a pattern here. Dont know the back story here, but possibly those chicago buses were rehabbed due to the outdating of parts bad news is they have been back but in such limited service, it makes one wonder if they are getting close to done. 

Then we also have the proterra issue of frames cracking out in philly. Scary part is those are the same model as the #600-#605 buses here. The miles here are relatively low so no problems so far, but what awaits them in the future? Then the newest models have the same type of frame, so Im scared to say what that means. Id be interested to see how nova and nf builds it electrics with what kind of frame, cause this dont sound good cause the weight is double cause of the batteries. 

Ill see if I can link that first story again. 

[BusHunter]

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2021/09/08/mechanical-problems-with-early-electric-buses-plague-multiple-transit-agencies/

Whats bad about this is if the buses cant get fixed the agency has to reinburst the feds for fta life. On a grand scale this could essentially bankrupt an agency if that is possible when its publicly funded. 

[Busjack]

On 2/22/2022 at 11:11 PM, MetroShadow said:

I'm surprised no one has speculated this "New Garage" item listed, either.

It depends on range anxiety (initially, you don't know if you'll maximize the range of the bus due to weather, at least Chicago doesn't have asinine hills like California does). It's not impossible to achieve this plan, but service delivery in the present is lacking, despite the externalities which got folks on transit during the last crunch.

There was the fictional Fisk garage. With block length or range anxiety being a concern, I would thin nearer to downtown would be better, which is the only reason I mention it.

However, with the report leaving the fates  of FG and NP up in the air, it's probably not worth speculating about it.

On 2/23/2022 at 5:39 AM, strictures said:

Simple, it shows that they didn't deliberately route it through minority areas.

Art never said that. He was talking about today.

Maybe you can time travel back to the 1950s and put battery electric buses where, at the time, CTA was running electric streetcars and trolley buses, the comment would have some relevance.

On 2/23/2022 at 9:04 AM, BusHunter said:

Yes it was, in fact I linked the story. A west coast operator was having difficulty getting parts for Proterras and had benched some buses for an extended length 6 months to a year. It was before your return here. ...

Again, irrelevant to the discussion in the report that the purchase schedule in the report was based on the 14 year replacement schedule for diesel buses. The report never asserted that the 600s would last until 2036.

Maybe you can read the following:

 

[NewFlyerMCI]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Yes it was, in fact I linked the story. A west coast operator was having difficulty getting parts for Proterras and had benched some buses for an extended length 6 months to a year. It was before your return here. It was I believe one of the first models they produced. But hello chicago hello, what has not heen driving the streets of chicago lately?  So there appears to be a pattern here. Dont know the back story here, but possibly those chicago buses were rehabbed due to the outdating of parts bad news is they have been back but in such limited service, it makes one wonder if they are getting close to done. 

Then we also have the proterra issue of frames cracking out in philly. Scary part is those are the same model as the #600-#605 buses here. The miles here are relatively low so no problems so far, but what awaits them in the future? Then the newest models have the same type of frame, so Im scared to say what that means. Id be interested to see how nova and nf builds it electrics with what kind of frame, cause this dont sound good cause the weight is double cause of the batteries. 

Ill see if I can link that first story again. 

SEPTA's issue seems to be unique so far, something specific with those frames and not endemic to the whole model

[NewFlyerMCI]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2021/09/08/mechanical-problems-with-early-electric-buses-plague-multiple-transit-agencies/

Whats bad about this is if the buses cant get fixed the agency has to reinburst the feds for fta life. On a grand scale this could essentially bankrupt an agency if that is possible when its publicly funded. 

Foothill hasn't had to pay the feds back, they just haven't been able to operate the buses. Wouldn't they just be sidelined until they could be scrapped?

[NewFlyerMCI]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:52 AM, Busjack said:

Maybe not news to us, but a Sun-Times article quotes a CTA Press Release on electric buses.

New is:

So, those of you who said 95th win a prize for being right.

I'm starting a new topic on Charging Forward.

Please confine this topic to the Proterras.

I’d like double chocolate for my cookie, please ?

[Tcmetro]

I read through the plan, and there are some huge costs associated with the project; namely, a new bus garage, complete rebuilds of 77th, North Park, and Forest Glen, and state-of-good-repair improvements at 74th, 103rd, Kedzie, and Chicago. On top of that is the increased costs of electric buses and the charging equipment. The big benefit here is that the garages are worn out and the majority of the fleet needs to be replaced, so they might as well electrify it now.

The amount of work that the garages need is surprising to me (as someone that doesn't work for CTA and never sees the garage). I wonder if CTA has anticipated these needs before the idea of electrification came about, otherwise it seems that it is going to be a big struggle to do so much facility work that wasn't budgeted for.

[NewFlyerMCI]

43 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

I read through the plan, and there are some huge costs associated with the project; namely, a new bus garage, complete rebuilds of 77th, North Park, and Forest Glen, and state-of-good-repair improvements at 74th, 103rd, Kedzie, and Chicago. On top of that is the increased costs of electric buses and the charging equipment. The big benefit here is that the garages are worn out and the majority of the fleet needs to be replaced, so they might as well electrify it now.

The amount of work that the garages need is surprising to me (as someone that doesn't work for CTA and never sees the garage). I wonder if CTA has anticipated these needs before the idea of electrification came about, otherwise it seems that it is going to be a big struggle to do so much facility work that wasn't budgeted for.

Once again, such a shame that CTA didn’t pounce on that huge plot of land next to Western Orange line and that Parks got it instead.

The situation recently where SEPTA lost a potential garage site to Amazon is only going to get more common. I’m hard-pressed to think of where CTA could build another centrally located garage outside of places like BotY. Maybe time to go the way of NYC & Boston and explore two floor garages.

[artthouwill]

26 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Once again, such a shame that CTA didn’t pounce on that huge plot of land next to Western Orange line and that Parks got it instead.

The situation recently where SEPTA lost a potential garage site to Amazon is only going to get more common. I’m hard-pressed to think of where CTA could build another centrally located garage outside of places like BotY. Maybe time to go the way of NYC & Boston and explore two floor garages.

I don't know if there's available land in the Back of the Yard area, but that would be ideal.  Also there's land in Cicero that once was LeClair Courts  that wouldn't be bad except its surrounded  y by  residences to the west and the south.   What happened to the Fisk sire? Lastly there is that vacant land on State between Cermak and the Stevenson,  but that might still be tied up in litigation.   Even if the city won, I think that particular parcel  would be developed in a different way.   The city might deem it too valuable to put a CTA garage there.

[Tcmetro]

Fisk is going to be redeveloped into a data center, I'm not sure about some of the land around it.

NewFlyerMCI is right about TAs getting outbidded for bus garage land. Industrial and warehousing has huge demand right now, and they're moving into the city as they've already built out a lot of the easy suburban sites. Pilsen and Little Village are going through industrial redevelopment and Amazon's making moves south of there.