Charging Forward (bus electrification plan)

[kdavis77]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

It is really just baby steps at cta so far. Most buses don't run more than 2 or 3 hours and only 3 run max per rush period. It is really depressing to come down chicago and not see these. Don't know whats the issue. Was thinking this morning maybe the buses could be spread around. Why wait for next year or two years why not just let 103rd try out a few buses. Even if there is no route charger at least the buses could get some well needed exposure. It worked for the 700s. If the garage doesn't have a charger how about running a couple out of 77th. I don't know if we'll ever see all proterras on the #66. It seems far fetched. At least more managers could see the buses and get a clue.. I don't get it the Aon express is running good. Maybe cta needs to speak to that operators maintenance. LOL!!

What happen if the CTA is planning to purchase any articulated electric buses in the future?

[Busjack]

3 minutes ago, kdavis77 said:

What happen if the CTA is planning to purchase any articulated electric buses in the future?

Currently, New Flyer makes one (see 60' under CHARGE NG), and by then there will be others.

I've also said that an electric motor on the center axle made more sense than the current pusher configuration.

[jajuan]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:32 AM, Sam92 said:

That's something CDOT and CTA gotta get in the ring about with the grand canyon Jr forming by McCormick. Bump makes you wanna pick the bus up and carry it the rest of the way ??

And the North Drive is no better. One guy responding to the news that officials are planning the rebuild of the northern stretch said to him it feels like driving over a war torn road that was part of a battle zone. 

[artthouwill]

49 minutes ago, jajuan said:

And the North Drive is no better. One guy responding to the news that officials are planning the rebuild of the northern stretch said to him it feels like driving over a war torn road that was part of a battle zone. 

I can't believe that people actually want the Outer Drive closed altogether.    Something about it cutting off the Lakefront from the community and Lake Shore DuSable Outer Field Drive being an expressway .   I hope this stupid idea never gains traction.   At least the South Side Lake Shore people can blame the Metra tracks for "cutting off" the community from the Lakefront.   We know that the trains aren't going anywhere.

To be honest,  South DuSable Lake Shore Drive is starting to deteriorate but the main difference is the South Side is all concrete and the North Side is paved asphalt. 

[Smolensk]

48 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I can't believe that people actually want the Outer Drive closed altogether.    Something about it cutting off the Lakefront from the community and Lake Shore DuSable Outer Field Drive being an expressway .   I hope this stupid idea never gains traction.  

It's the urbanistas who want to ban all automobiles in the city and will support any plan, no matter how expensive outlandish or disruptive, if it makes driving more expensive or inconvenient or it punishes people who have to or choose to drive.  They also don't think much of buses,, you should either bike, walk, or take a train.

People in general don't support this kind of stuff, but the urbanistas are loud and organized and they get a lot of media attention which means that politicians hear them.

[Sam92]

2 hours ago, Smolensk said:

It's the urbanistas who want to ban all automobiles in the city and will support any plan, no matter how expensive outlandish or disruptive, if it makes driving more expensive or inconvenient or it punishes people who have to or choose to drive.  They also don't think much of buses,, you should either bike, walk, or take a train.

People in general don't support this kind of stuff, but the urbanistas are loud and organized and they get a lot of media attention which means that politicians hear them.

It's total BS cause we're in gridlock due to not telling pedestrians to pay attention

[geneking7320]

On 3/30/2022 at 1:51 PM, Busjack said:

Currently, New Flyer makes one (see 60' under CHARGE NG), and by then there will be others.

I've also said that an electric motor on the center axle made more sense than the current pusher configuration.

New Flyer made high floor articulated ETBs for Muni some time ago. I think those buses had a powered center axle.

I'm not sure about the Muni's current 60ft ETBs though.

[BusHunter]

Was reading on the rtams website, cta wants to fully electrify its buses at the 103rd garage and chicago garage. That's a tall order, especially when on Friday I saw there was more #6800's out than #600's!!

With this infrastructure cash infusion they might have a chance to purchase some, but they have alot going on, on the rail side. Red line expansion, rpm, forest park rehab. Plus they want to put handicap accessibility at racine blue, montrose blue and California blue, plus they want to beef up the power upgrades on the blue line out to Loomis junction. 

[artthouwill]

3 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Was reading on the rtams website, cta wants to fully electrify its buses at the 103rd garage and chicago garage. That's a tall order, especially when on Friday I saw there was more #6800's out than #600's!!

With this infrastructure cash infusion they might have a chance to purchase some, but they have alot going on, on the rail side. Red line expansion, rpm, forest park rehab. Plus they want to put handicap accessibility at racine blue, montrose blue and California blue, plus they want to beef up the power upgrades on the blue line out to Loomis junction. 

I assume you mean that CTA wants 103rd and C to have an all electric fleet.  They are going to need a lot of money.  That means CTA would have to purchase electric artics in addition to electric 40ft buses .wgi sets these lifts agendas?  CTA  can't get three Proterras on the street at the same time consistently and they want to make TWO FARAGES all electric ?  I want to meet Dorval Carter's drug dealer. I can make a fortune  

Perhaps CTA will have better luck with the 6 electric Novas coming next year.  But history has shown that CTA has struggled to keep a small amount of electric buses from 2 different manufacturers on the street.   At this rate I think Pace will have more success with the one Gillig and the six electric buses Pace North is slated to get than CTA  

[BusHunter]

30 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I assume you mean that CTA wants 103rd and C to have an all electric fleet.  They are going to need a lot of money.  That means CTA would have to purchase electric artics in addition to electric 40ft buses .wgi sets these lifts agendas?  CTA  can't get three Proterras on the street at the same time consistently and they want to make TWO FARAGES all electric ?  I want to meet Dorval Carter's drug dealer. I can make a fortune  

Perhaps CTA will have better luck with the 6 electric Novas coming next year.  But history has shown that CTA has struggled to keep a small amount of electric buses from 2 different manufacturers on the street.   At this rate I think Pace will have more success with the one Gillig and the six electric buses Pace North is slated to get than CTA  

Pace at least is getting some Gilligs. This is better than all proterras 

[jajuan]

39 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I assume you mean that CTA wants 103rd and C to have an all electric fleet.  They are going to need a lot of money.  That means CTA would have to purchase electric artics in addition to electric 40ft buses .wgi sets these lifts agendas?  CTA  can't get three Proterras on the street at the same time consistently and they want to make TWO FARAGES all electric ?  I want to meet Dorval Carter's drug dealer. I can make a fortune  

Perhaps CTA will have better luck with the 6 electric Novas coming next year.  But history has shown that CTA has struggled to keep a small amount of electric buses from 2 different manufacturers on the street.   At this rate I think Pace will have more success with the one Gillig and the six electric buses Pace North is slated to get than CTA  

 

57 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Was reading on the rtams website, cta wants to fully electrify its buses at the 103rd garage and chicago garage. That's a tall order, especially when on Friday I saw there was more #6800's out than #600's!!

With this infrastructure cash infusion they might have a chance to purchase some, but they have alot going on, on the rail side. Red line expansion, rpm, forest park rehab. Plus they want to put handicap accessibility at racine blue, montrose blue and California blue, plus they want to beef up the power upgrades on the blue line out to Loomis junction. 

I've begun to wonder if CTA's woes with getting so few Proterras on the road at one time after they finally went into service is a function of their choosing to debut them on the 66 when C still often needs to place a good number of artics on that route. Maybe the first electric order behind the 700s should have been electric artics or maybe a small mix of electric standards and electric artics.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, jajuan said:

 

I've begun to wonder if CTA's woes with getting so few Proterras on the road at one time after they finally went into service is a function of their choosing to debut them on the 66 when C still often needs to place a good number of artics on that route. Maybe the first electric order behind the 700s should have been electric artics or maybe a small mix of electric standards and electric artics.

While what you said has some validity, i believe if that was the case, then could have just switched the touted to either the 65, and/or started testing on the 63 since there are charging stations at Navy Pier and Midway.  Thet could have been tested on the 79 like the New Flyers were.   Bur again, CTA struggled to keep the New Flyer electrics on the street . 

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

While what you said has some validity, i believe if that was the case, then could have just switched the touted to either the 65, and/or started testing on the 63 since there are charging stations at Navy Pier and Midway.  Thet could have been tested on the 79 like the New Flyers were.   Bur again, CTA struggled to keep the New Flyer electrics on the street . 

They just need to take into account the life cycle of an electric is not what a diesel gets. Alot of TA's are having big problems with electrics its not cta's fault. Some agencies are questioning their electric futures. The tech has alot of hiccups. I can only think how long we were playing with gasoline engines In the early 1900s before they had a viable system. 

Shame is while the battery buses are sitting at south shops the batteries are aging. There's a clock that ticks on the life cycle and once they get to a certain point parts are scarce. Some buses don't even get that far.

News is however before the end of 2022 the rest of cta proterras will hit the streets good luck!!

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

They just need to take into account the life cycle of an electric is not what a diesel gets. Alot of TA's are having big problems with electrics its not cta's fault. Some agencies are questioning their electric futures. The tech has alot of hiccups. I can only think how long we were playing with gasoline engines In the early 1900s before they had a viable system. 

Shame is while the battery buses are sitting at south shops the batteries are aging. There's a clock that ticks on the life cycle and once they get to a certain point parts are scarce. Some buses don't even get that far.

News is however before the end of 2022 the rest of cta proterras will hit the streets good luck!!

Which is why I think its crazy for CTA  (and Pace) to totally commit to an all electric bus fleet.  They can purchase some entries for testing,  but I believe the next order if CTA attics should be mostly diesel or hybrid with some electrics.  The same should apply when it's time to replace the 16xx and up New Flyers. 

At least Pace can go CNG  if it just doesn't want to do diesel buses anymore, but since they are going to be around for awhile, it might not hurt to order more diesels at least once more.  Certainly thus technology hasn't translated into the motor coach sector very well, so Pace may be forced to order more diesels in that category.   

[jajuan]

6 hours ago, artthouwill said:

While what you said has some validity, i believe if that was the case, then could have just switched the touted to either the 65, and/or started testing on the 63 since there are charging stations at Navy Pier and Midway.  Thet could have been tested on the 79 like the New Flyers were.   Bur again, CTA struggled to keep the New Flyer electrics on the street . 

My other thought was just that. That maybe the west end charging station should have been placed at Grand/Nordica instead of Chicago/Austin so that the Proterra debut could be on the 65 instead of the 66. Either way, they're just not out on the road enough so far to work out the kinks fast enough for groundwork in obtaining an all electric fleet within the little over 17 year timeframe they committed themselves to. 2040 may still be a long time forward in a regular setting, but for something as huge as this commitment they've locked in, that's not really much time at all. Heck, they haven't even made moves to get the ball rolling expanding the number needed at garages let alone worked out getting them at bus terminus points, a good number of which aren't off-street. Clark/Belle Plaine for the 9, 64th/Blackstone for the 63, Roosevelt/Austin for the 91 and Chicago/Troy for the 52 are a few that come to mind.

[NewFlyerMCI]

2040 should’ve been the last year for diesel purchase, not the deadline for ⚡️

[Anthony Devera]

Could the 124 be converted to electric-only operation? I believe it only requires 4 or 5 buses at a time to run. Although it currently is a Kedzie route, it could be moved to C, with runs deadheading as the 66 between C and Navy Pier. I know there isn't a charger at Union Station, but a round trip on the 124 is shorter than a one-way trip on the 66 between Pulaski and Navy Pier.

[jajuan]

1 hour ago, Anthony Devera said:

Could the 124 be converted to electric-only operation? I believe it only requires 4 or 5 buses at a time to run. Although it currently is a Kedzie route, it could be moved to C, with runs deadheading as the 66 between C and Navy Pier. I know there isn't a charger at Union Station, but a round trip on the 124 is shorter than a one-way trip on the 66 between Pulaski and Navy Pier.

Considering the 700s were at Kedzie at one point, it probably shouldn't be too much an issue to have updated charging stations there and electrify the 124 without reassigning garages. Given that both garages share work on the 12 and 66 in the AM rush, I'm not sure Chicago has the manpower to take over operation of the 124 without giving something back to Kedzie. Yes the route may only use a small number of buses, but you still have to account for multiple shifts and relief needs since service on that route is until midnight in the summer and 10:30 PM all others parts of the year. You also have to take into account split runs and possible inlining the current garage may have in place.

[Tcmetro]

CTA received $29 million to purchase 10 more electric buses and begin upgrades to Chicago garage. I would imagine that CTA would order more options from the Proterra order, but they could also start a new procurement.

https://www.transitchicago.com/cta-receives-nearly-29-million-to-advance-its-bus-fleet-electrification-plans-/

[artthouwill]

32 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

CTA received $29 million to purchase 10 more electric buses and begin upgrades to Chicago garage. I would imagine that CTA would order more options from the Proterra order, but they could also start a new procurement.

https://www.transitchicago.com/cta-receives-nearly-29-million-to-advance-its-bus-fleet-electrification-plans-/

Well they have 6 Novas coming.  They can still choose between Proterras,  Nova, New Flyer, Gillug, and ENC,  though the latter two are Longshots.Longshot.

It would be a great opportunity for CTA to make at least 5 of these electric buses artics, if not all 10.  Since the 4000s aren't getting any younger., might as well test the electric artics to see if that's the next order of artics should be or if one more round of hybrids or diesels will be needed 

[BusHunter]

4 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Well they have 6 Novas coming.  They can still choose between Proterras,  Nova, New Flyer, Gillug, and ENC,  though the latter two are Longshots.Longshot.

It would be a great opportunity for CTA to make at least 5 of these electric buses artics, if not all 10.  Since the 4000s aren't getting any younger., might as well test the electric artics to see if that's the next order of artics should be or if one more round of hybrids or diesels will be needed 

Proterras seem to be a scary idea, but it's cta's call. At least they have seen the Nova electric demo. I'll tell them this Nova seems to have alot more support than Proterra. I've seen alot more Prevost engineers at south shops than Proterra. About the only support Proterra seems to have is at Bus and Truck and I don't know if that's official or 3rd party. Artics while tempting to purchase, puts more of their eggs in one basket. The big operators are gonna have the better support. 

Kind of interesting, if C and 103 are the new electric garages, why did they set up infrastructure on 63rd for 74th? Also if the Dan Ryan becomes an electric charging area where will the substation go? Will it be perched over the highway? The Chicago Austin one is pretty big.

[Javi75]

CTA would do better to do an all Hybrid fleet, if the 4000s artics and 4300s artics are living up to their full service lives something must’ve worked. What made the 4000s last longer than the 800s and 900s though? 

[Busjack]

On 8/19/2022 at 2:54 PM, Javi75 said:

CTA would do better to do an all Hybrid fleet, if the 4000s artics and 4300s artics are living up to their full service lives something must’ve worked. What made the 4000s last longer than the 800s and 900s though? 

They never really worked as hybrids. They smoked and only got marginally better mileage. Note that CTA wouldn't pay for the last 66 to be hybrids.

Now, if Toyota had designed the system............

[jajuan]

On 8/19/2022 at 2:54 PM, Javi75 said:

CTA would do better to do an all Hybrid fleet, if the 4000s artics and 4300s artics are living up to their full service lives something must’ve worked. What made the 4000s last longer than the 800s and 900s though? 

 

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

They never really worked as hybrids. They smoked and only got marginally better mileage. Note that CTA wouldn't pay for the last 66 to be hybrids.

Now, if Toyota had designed the system............

Yeah the 4300s series hybrids barely worked all that much better than the clean diesel counterparts of the series. One was totally wrecked in its first year by a dump truck. Another was out of commission for months after having really bad front end damage from a head on collision. And right now on the present, a number of them have been sidelined by maintenance backlog that's been plaguing SS these past few months. One other thing I've picked up on is that other TAs have seemed to have had a better time with their hybrids than CTA, regardless of the manufacturer. This seems to be especially true of the different models of hybrids that were built equipped with the BAE HybriDrive system. But at this point, it doesn't matter much now since CTA has committed to transition to an all electric fleet and hybrids count as buses that add to a TA's carbon footprint. 

[Javi75]

On 8/22/2022 at 7:04 PM, jajuan said:

 

Yeah the 4300s series hybrids barely worked all that much better than the clean diesel counterparts of the series. One was totally wrecked in its first year by a dump truck. Another was out of commission for months after having really bad front end damage from a head on collision. And right now on the present, a number of them have been sidelined by maintenance backlog that's been plaguing SS these past few months. One other thing I've picked up on is that other TAs have seemed to have had a better time with their hybrids than CTA, regardless of the manufacturer. This seems to be especially true of the different models of hybrids that were built equipped with the BAE HybriDrive system. But at this point, it doesn't matter much now since CTA has committed to transition to an all electric fleet and hybrids count as buses that add to a TA's carbon footprint. 

On the 4000s and 4300s hybrid buses especially when they’re on LSD make a certain sound when they slow down after going fast, only hybrid buses make that sound when slowing down after going fast. You would have to be close enough to the buses motor to hear it.