Latest 5000-series Rail Car Rendering

[Busjack]

If you do, copyright them to First and Fastest Magazine... so Busjack doesn't get in a tizzy.

The issue isn't the acknowledgment. You can't "copyright" someone else's work, they have already copyrighted it. You MAY NOT COPY IT WITHOUT PERMISSION. And the host of the site incurs legal liability for hosting it.

The more relevant question: Is there a location where F&F is sold (such as a hobby store)?

[geneking7320]

The issue isn't the acknowledgment. You can't "copyright" someone else's work, they have already copyrighted it. You MAY NOT COPY IT WITHOUT PERMISSION. And the host of the site incurs legal liability for hosting it.

The more relevant question: Is there a location where F&F is sold (such as a hobby store)?

I know that you can purchase First and Fastest at Chicagoland Hobby [sp] on Northwest Highway in Chicago. It is on CTA route #68 and near the Norwood Park Metra station.

Gene King

[BusHunter]

It would make sense for the Blue Line to get 5000-series cars (considering all the signal upgrades the route is getting), but wouldn't the entire route have to have the same equipment for the route to function well? I think the CTA should split these cars among the Blue, Pink, and Yellow Lines. I think 330 cars should be assigned to the Blue Line. Right now the Blue Line has 318 cars assigned to it. The Pink Line should get 66 cars which would allow rush hour service to expand to 6 cars. The Blue and Pink Lines share equipment when there are shortages so this idea would work there. Finally, 10 cars get assigned to the Yellow Line. The 220 2600 cars assigned to the Blue and Pink Lines now should get split between Green and Purple Lines. My final breakdown would be as followed.

Red Line- 360 2600 series cars

Yellow Line- 10 5000 series cars

Blue Line- 330 5000 series cars

Green Line- 140 2600 series cars

Purple Line- 96 2600 series cars

Orange Line- 108 3200 series cars

Brown Line- 148 3200 series cars

Pink Line- 66 5000 series cars

If the cars were assigned in this manner, it allows the Green, Orange, Blue and Purple Lines to expand service by one to three more trains during rush hour. Plus, it allows every route to consolidate equipment to one series of cars except the Brown Line which would get 3457-3458 and boost its total to 150 cars.

That sounds pretty close to what I expect to happen. The only reason Pink line has 4 car sets is because of a car shortage. I agree they'll move up to 6 cars. I'd like to see the #5000's on the Blue line as well. With the new roadbed on the Kennedy section, it'll give them a chance to stretch there legs, so to speak. Part of the project on that was to make curves more gentle to accept train speeds of up to 70 MPH. It would seem to me to be the most logical place to send them. If Chicago wins the olympics, I see the green line getting some too.

[Busjack]

If Chicago wins the olympics, I see the green line getting some too.

By then, maybe. Of course, will they win the Olympics with the current transit system falling apart, and reportedly the bid not promising any transit improvements except exercising the "secret" NF order?

[artthouwill]

That sounds pretty close to what I expect to happen. The only reason Pink line has 4 car sets is because of a car shortage. I agree they'll move up to 6 cars. I'd like to see the #5000's on the Blue line as well. With the new roadbed on the Kennedy section, it'll give them a chance to stretch there legs, so to speak. Part of the project on that was to make curves more gentle to accept train speeds of up to 70 MPH. It would seem to me to be the most logical place to send them. If Chicago wins the olympics, I see the green line getting some too.

The Blue Line getting all 5000s exclusively does make sense. The question is where the balance of the new cars go once the Blue Line gets its 320 or so cars.

[RJL6000]

The Blue Line getting all 5000s exclusively does make sense. The question is where the balance of the new cars go once the Blue Line gets its 320 or so cars.

Most likely the Red Line. The Red Line is currently assigned the earlier 2600-series cars, and should the CTA exercise its two remaining options for the 5000s, this would allow the retirement or reassignment of that line's 2600s.

[rmadisonwi]

Why the sudden desire to give the Pink Line six-car trains? The ridership barely supports four-car trains.

[BusHunter]

Why the sudden desire to give the Pink Line six-car trains? The ridership barely supports four-car trains.

Maybe in the off peak, but in the rush hour I've seen standing loads. ( Nothing as extreme as Blue and Red line crowds) besides they have the platform space to expand so why not? A few trains could run with 6 cars in the rush. I've always wondered anyway why the trains run 7 minutes apart. That could easily be pushed up to 10 minutes with 6 car trains. I always thought the reason for 4 cars was because of a car shortage. The pink line covers more real estate than the former blue line and also the Forest Park branch is now running with double service (compared to pre pink line levels) There hasn't been a fleet increase so something has to be stretched thin to make it.

[jajuan]

Maybe in the off peak, but in the rush hour I've seen standing loads. ( Nothing as extreme as Blue and Red line crowds) besides they have the platform space to expand so why not? A few trains could run with 6 cars in the rush. I've always wondered anyway why the trains run 7 minutes apart. That could easily be pushed up to 10 minutes with 6 car trains. I always thought the reason for 4 cars was because of a car shortage. The pink line covers more real estate than the former blue line and also the Forest Park branch is now running with double service (compared to pre pink line levels) There hasn't been a fleet increase so something has to be stretched thin to make it.

With some folks already speaking of waiting longer for a bus because of the NABI mess, I experienced a little with the 148 Friday, I don't think doing anything to increase the wait time on the Pink Line is going to fly well with anyone. If longer trains can be used efficiently fine, but no scaling back on schedules because of longer trains. They haven't done that with the Brown Line.

[BusHunter]

With some folks already speaking of waiting longer for a bus because of the NABI mess, I experienced a little with the 148 Friday, I don't think doing anything to increase the wait time on the Pink Line is going to fly well with anyone. If longer trains can be used efficiently fine, but no scaling back on schedules because of longer trains. They haven't done that with the Brown Line.

Yes they did. Remember when the Brown line was six cars. Trains ran more frequent. In fact alot of green line riders complained because the loop on the NB side had noticeably more Brown line trains than Greens. Now that they run 8 cars the service is not as frequent there.

[Busjack]

Yes they did. Remember when the Brown line was six cars. Trains ran more frequent. In fact alot of green line riders complained because the loop on the NB side had noticeably more Brown line trains than Greens. Now that they run 8 cars the service is not as frequent there.

However, the question is whether that is temporary until the project (not just 3 track) is done. But some transit pundits predicted about 4 years ago that that would be the result, even though that doesn't increase passenger capacity. I tend to beleive that the trend mentioned by rjl, using cars from other yards, may increase.

Given the current daytime frequency of the Pink Line (7 to 10 minutes, a.m. rush, 8 to 10 minutes, p.m. rush) I don't see how you can cut it much further without really teeing off the passengers. However, given that the Ashland and Cottage Grove branches of the Green Line are half that (15 to 20 minutes), I don't see how that sustains L service (getting back to the discussions with BusExpert and Art on that).

In any event, this isn't like the days (mentioned in Krambles's book) where increasing train length only increased the interval from 5 to 7 minutes.

[jajuan]

Yes they did. Remember when the Brown line was six cars. Trains ran more frequent. In fact alot of green line riders complained because the loop on the NB side had noticeably more Brown line trains than Greens. Now that they run 8 cars the service is not as frequent there.

Ok, but I read your other post as being increase the length of the train just to reduce the frequency of service instead of reduce frequency due to the continuing signal improvement projects on the Loop as Busjack points out could be a possibility. Reducing service frequency due to construction projects makes more sense than ok we have longer trains so let's shave down train intervals. In a time when transit demand is up, across the country that makes no sense just like the 3 for 4 scenario for getting arctics instead of standard buses to reduce overall fleet size. The Nabi mess shows an apparent flaw with 3 for 4 replacement.

[Tcmetro]

There was a pic on SubChat awhile ago: http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=747858

[Busjack]

There was a pic on SubChat awhile ago: http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=747858

But not big enough to see much of anything. The chatters don't seem to have much information, either.

[artthouwill]

Isn't this the year we are supposed to get the prototype cars? Where will they go?

[Busjack]

Isn't this the year we are supposed to get the prototype cars? Where will they go?

Yep, and they were supposed to be tested around the whole system.

At least 5750 said First and Fastest said the first few were at the plant. Anyone have anything newer?

[pudgym29]

Isn't this the year we are supposed to get the prototype cars? Where will they go?

Yep, and they were supposed to be tested around the whole system. cta5750 said First and Fastest said the first few were at the plant. Anyone have anything newer?

They're going to wind up on the Blue Line. Something has to replace those non-ADA compliant 2200-series cars from 1969.

"First and Fastest" had photographs of the first two cars being tested at the factory. The accompanying text reported the second pair would soon be manufactured, and then they would test a four-car train set.

[RIPTA42]

They're going to wind up on the Blue Line. Something has to replace those non-ADA compliant 2200-series cars from 1969.

And who's to say the Blue Line won't get another line's cars once that line gets 5000s?

[Busjack]

And who's to say the Blue Line won't get another line's cars once that line gets 5000s?

Frank Kruesi, but he gone as of 2007.

[sw4400]

I'm sticking to the Brown Line getting the first order of 5000's, while the 3200's move and replace the 2200's. The Kimball Yard doesn't have enough equipment for 8-car trains constantly, and thus is why you see 2600's and the occassional 2400 on the Brown Line. With the 206 5000's, Kimball Yard will have enough trains for 8-car service without borrowing from the Red and Purple Lines. This also, might eliminate the rarely seen, but often talked about, Ravenston in the mornings.

These 5000's can't be trained with any other railcars(i.e 2400's, 2600's, 3200's), and there are enough 3200's at Kimball Yard to retire the aged 2200's.

In 2003(albeit years before the Bombadiers were ordered), the Red Line was tested with 3200's... , as seen here. I still think there was some purpose to this, which puts a possibility that the Brown Line may get the first 206 "L" cars.

Also, in 2004, the Brown Line was, again, tested with longitudal seating(like the 5000-Series railcars will have) as shown here

[artthouwill]

I'm sticking to the Brown Line getting the first order of 5000's, while the 3200's move and replace the 2200's. The Kimball Yard doesn't have enough equipment for 8-car trains constantly, and thus is why you see 2600's and the occassional 2400 on the Brown Line. With the 206 5000's, Kimball Yard will have enough trains for 8-car service without borrowing from the Red and Purple Lines. This also, might eliminate the rarely seen, but often talked about, Ravenston in the mornings.

These 5000's can't be trained with any other railcars(i.e 2400's, 2600's, 3200's), and there are enough 3200's at Kimball Yard to retire the aged 2200's.

I definitely see your logic and it makes some sense, but I will stick with my original idea that the [blue line gets them first. The Blue Line is a showcase line from O'Hare.

[MetroShadow]

I definitely see your logic and it makes some sense, but I will stick with my original idea that the [blue line gets them first. The Blue Line is a showcase line from O'Hare.

Judging by a track fire caused by the 2200's earlier today...I'll put my money on the blue line.

[Guest]

I'm sticking to the Brown Line getting the first order of 5000's, while the 3200's move and replace the 2200's. The Kimball Yard doesn't have enough equipment for 8-car trains constantly, and thus is why you see 2600's and the occassional 2400 on the Brown Line. With the 206 5000's, Kimball Yard will have enough trains for 8-car service without borrowing from the Red and Purple Lines. This also, might eliminate the rarely seen, but often talked about, Ravenston in the mornings.

These 5000's can't be trained with any other railcars(i.e 2400's, 2600's, 3200's), and there are enough 3200's at Kimball Yard to retire the aged 2200's.

In 2003(albeit years before the Bombadiers were ordered), the Red Line was tested with 3200's... , as seen here. I still think there was some purpose to this, which puts a possibility that the Brown Line may get the first 206 "L" cars.

Also, in 2004, the Brown Line was, again, tested with longitudal seating(like the 5000-Series railcars will have) as shown here

I would imagine the Brown Line getting the first cars as well. Being that the corridor has been rehabbed as well as having the heaviest ridership in the entire system. The Blue Line will probably be sent the hand me down 3200s which I would not have a problem with. I like the 3200 series cars, but I also would love to see cars with the the new longitudal seating arrangement on the B.L. Ride like a New York subway passenger on the Blue Line. One things for certain, I will miss the 2200s. The last of the blinker door style cars, starting in 1947 with the first 5000 series cars and ending with the 1969 model 2200 Budds in 2011.

[Busjack]

Judging by a track fire caused by the 2200's earlier today...I'll put my money on the blue line.

That's also my theory, also they keep complaining that the 2200s are 40 years old and 10 years past their FTA life.

BTW, the CTA Tattler had their second-hand article on this today. The butt perch seemed to get the most reaction.

My initial Brown Line speculation was based on that if 406 cars were ordered, and there are about 340 needed to replace the existing 2200s and 2400s, that leaves about 60 for the Brown Line expansion, which added to the then about 144 already assigned, would result in the 33% increase needed to go from 6 to 8 car trains. However, you get to the points raised by a now member of the Pace Advisory Board that the Kimball Yard was not expanded; sort of reinforced by messages here about how the Ravenston became the RavenMid (ie. cars from the Orange Line yard being assigned to Brown Line work). Basically, you have a lack of yard capacity at Kimball, and definitely excess capacity at 54th and maybe at Midway.

[sw4400]

That's also my theory, also they keep complaining that the 2200s are 40 years old and 10 years past their FTA life.

BTW, the CTA Tattler had their second-hand article on this today. The butt perch seemed to get the most reaction.

My initial Brown Line speculation was based on that if 406 cars were ordered, and there are about 340 needed to replace the existing 2200s and 2400s, that leaves about 60 for the Brown Line expansion, which added to the then about 144 already assigned, would result in the 33% increase needed to go from 6 to 8 car trains. However, you get to the points raised by a now member of the Pace Advisory Board that the Kimball Yard was not expanded; sort of reinforced by messages here about how the Ravenston became the RavenMid (ie. cars from the Orange Line yard being assigned to Brown Line work). Basically, you have a lack of yard capacity at Kimball, and definitely excess capacity at 54th and maybe at Midway.

Unfortunately Busjack, 60 does not divide into 8 evenly(answer is 7.5), and these cars are A/C, not D/C. My theory about Blue Line getting 3200's from Kimball and Kimball getting the first 206 is more plausable(currently 142 cars are at Kimball Yard), but if they get all 206, that'll give the Brown Line 64 extra cars, which, does divide evenly into 8...

Blue Line has 120 operable 2200-Series cars(give or take a few), Brown Line has 142 3200's. These cars can train with the 210 2600's that they already have, as opposed to the 5000's. The 3200's can phase out the 2200's and give the Blue Line 22 additional cars.

I think the CTA would rather move 142 3200's, in small groups, over to the Blue Line yard while the Brown Line is shut down overnight, then try to move 210 2600's around that use them 24/7. This will continue until all 142 are at the Blue Line yard and the 2200's are ran or trucked to wherever railcars get scrapped at. At the same time, the 5000's start to come in from their beginning point(most likely Howard Yard or Skokie Shops) to the Kimball Yard for use the next day.