6400-series Nova LFS - Updates & Retirements

[wordguy]

The CTA has never really embraced cutting-edge technology.  Accepting  delivery of two electric buses was a bold decision (IMO).  Considering the conditions summarized by Busjack,   I'd doubt that they'll opt for another 25.  The feds probably wouldn't give the CTA the high sign anyway at  a million a crack,  assuming that electrics are still considered experimental.

It's probably just a matter of time until the CTA exercises the option for the last 25 Novas,  8325-8349.

Edited December 30, 2015 by wordguy
typo correction

[Busjack]

54 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I don't know they seem to be bending over backwards for 25 electric buses. (Just like Ben's auto sales on Western if you remember the commercial. )

Sponsor of Bob Luce Wrestling on Channel 44,

[Busjack]

54 minutes ago, wordguy said:

The feds probably wouldn't give the CTA the high sign anyway at  a million a crack

The Green Grants page stated that CTA asked for 5, got 2.

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

The Green Grants page stated that CTA asked for 5, got 2.

I don't get it then, why ask for 25 electric buses when they know they won't get them. Trying to refresh my memory, weren't they applying for some grant that said they had all old buses. It's too bad they couldn't get it into a grant similar to the new starts grant that the rpm will most likely get funding from. I'm surprised there's no clean air grant. Even if it takes the purchase price down to what a diesel costs, that's something.

[sw4400]

6 hours ago, Busjack said:

The Green Grants page stated that CTA asked for 5, got 2.

 

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I don't get it then, why ask for 25 electric buses when they know they won't get them. Trying to refresh my memory, weren't they applying for some grant that said they had all old buses. It's too bad they couldn't get it into a grant similar to the new starts grant that the rpm will most likely get funding from. I'm surprised there's no clean air grant. Even if it takes the purchase price down to what a diesel costs, that's something.

I think the reasoning to why they only got 2 as opposed to 5 was because all-electric buses are still in infancy to this day. Sure, more companies are growing their fleets little by little with all-electric buses, but they are still under the microscope as they are being driven, just like 700 and 701. They are still conducting how they operate in certain traffic situations, how they perform in extreme weather situations and with large volumes of passengers, etc.... cost may also have a big impact on ordering these buses, even through federal and state money.

Maybe in 5-10 years, electric buses will be a more common type of bus in transit fleets, but refinement stage is going on with TA's sending info to manufacturers of all-electric buses to work on version 2.0, 3.0, etc... of the buses(New Flyer, Nova, any other company doing all-electric buses).

[Busjack]

6 hours ago, sw4400 said:

I think the reasoning to why they only got 2 as opposed to 5 was because all-electric buses are still in infancy to this day.

No, it was that there was only so much TIGGER money to go around. Apparently, stimulus is over, as the last TIGGER references on the DOT website are in 2011.

And if you had read the Green Page, it says CTA applied for $6.3 mil and got $2.2. I think I explained that to you before.

 

10 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I don't get it then, why ask for 25 electric buses when they know they won't get them. Trying to refresh my memory, weren't they applying for some grant that said they had all old buses

They applied for a CMAQ grant (the link was on the prior page, but I'll copy it), and staff did not recommend it (see this thread).

In short, like any other welfare, you don't get unless you ask, and in these situations, you have to justify it,by saying if you get the grant, you take that many polluting buses off the street. Read the application.

[pudgym29]

I think I have deduced what is occurring with Forest Glen garage's Nova 6400-series buses. Other cities across the U.S.A. (Philadelphia, San Diego) have a route on which 'vintage' streetcar equipment runs on a regular (or semi-regular) basis. The C.T. A. is going to announce a 'vintage' motor bus route! It will be the route #88 Higgins line. That route has run with motor buses since 21 April 1935. It will take only three Nova 6400-series buses to provide service, so the Authority will probably keep at least six of them, just for the sporadic breakdown. With the superb skill of the bus maintenance department at Forest Glen, they can probably run on Higgins for the next 15, 20, 25 years! Motor bus maniacs will flock to the far NW side to get photographs of these ancient vehicles circa 2029. 

[Busjack]

5 hours ago, pudgym29 said:

Other cities across the U.S.A. (Philadelphia, San Diego) have a route on which 'vintage' streetcar equipment runs on a regular (or semi-regular) basis. The C.T. A. is going to announce a 'vintage' motor bus route!

However, they use real vintage streetcars (you can go up to Kenosha for a closer example). It would be a vintage bus route if CTA put a 1940s gasoline bus there (like what predominated on the NW side during CSL days), or even like CTA ran 8499 or 301 like it once did. The 6400s haven't aged enough in the wine cellar for that.

[andrethebusman]

Remember in the late 80's when 301 and 9228 (the Phoenix) were the two regular buses on 90N? And a bit earlier when 8499 was the regular on 89-Northeastern Illinois U-Bus, covering 32-West 31st during the summer when school was out?

[BusHunter]

On 1/3/2016 at 1:21 AM, andrethebusman said:

Remember in the late 80's when 301 and 9228 (the Phoenix) were the two regular buses on 90N? And a bit earlier when 8499 was the regular on 89-Northeastern Illinois U-Bus, covering 32-West 31st during the summer when school was out?

What is the phoenix? I remember about 1983, there always was one of the those west towns fishbowl buses (or whatever they were, i think they were #800's) that used to run on #41 Elston/Clybourn. It was always one of the last buses, seemed to be the same run. Those were some different buses, I don't recall seeing them anywhere else. they were only at Fg, but you have mentioned before the oddballs always seemed to be on the #84, so they probably were on it. I was too young to go out on my own, (I was only 7-8 yrs old) and research it.

There's probably not too many operators out there that drove the old #300's or #3000's, but there are still a few high seniority guys on the day shift, that should have been around in the late 70's. Usually they have a badge that begins with a 2. Once I came across an operator that his badge started with a 1. He said he was an operator from the 60's and came back to the CTA. I only saw him once. He looked retirement aged.

[garmon757]

Went past South Shop yesterday and spotted a third Nova work bus (probably ex-6632).

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I remember about 1983, there always was one of the those west towns fishbowl buses (or whatever they were, i think they were #800's)

You sure about West Towns, because those were 35 foot buses. Mel Bernero had pictures of a few of then in bad RTA paint jobs, but mostly in Nortran territory.

 

[andrethebusman]

A Phoenix was a rebuilt fishbowl. An outfit in Owosso MI would take a fishbowl, cut it off at the bottom of the windows and put a new roof, front, and square windows on it. Result was something similar to a Classic. There were some in Grand Rapids and Battle Creek, maybe a few others. CTA just had the one, but it was actually done by some outfit at 115th and Halsted whose name I can't remember now, but was owned by a "political worthy". It was supposed to be the first of a large group of rehabs, but after this one was done, it was determined to be way too costly. So it remained a one-off, but did run quite a few years. Somebody (Mel?) should have a shot of it.

[andrethebusman]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

You sure about West Towns, because those were 35 foot buses. Mel Bernero had pictures of a few of then in bad RTA paint jobs, but mostly in Nortran territory.

 

CTA got about 10 of these from, yes, West Towns for a short time in the early 80's. Some were in original blue and white, some in rehabbed (and air conditioned) silver/blue/brown. They were at FG, mostly ran on Elston/Clybourn and N Cicero/Skokie Blvd. CTA drivers did NOT like them as they did not have power steering. After they went back, at least the rehabbed ones were sent off elsewhere by RTA, such as to Safeway. This was all the result of a dispute between RTA and West Towns over valuation. Originally West Towns was supposed to get a large group of Grummans in 1982, but because RTA had not purchased West Towns yet, West Towns refused to accept any Grummans except one - 8204, and kept all 88 fishbowls and 19 4509's "active" to keep up the property's "value". Once the sale was consummated, the Grummans were sent over, the 4509's scrapped, and the fishbowls became RTA's "surge fleet", sent out to whatever operation needed a few buses, both in RTA territory and elsewhere like Green Bay. Interestingly, West Towns never objected to the 8000's they got in 1977 that immediately took over all service except school runs and a few rush trippers, as these were for "service expansion" while the Grummans would have been "replacements".

The other group of loaners near the same time were 20 buses leased from Flyer that were replacements while the 9800's were sent back to Winnipeg for structural reinforcements. 10 were 5303's from Calgary, other 10 were 9 5303's and 1 5301 originally from New Orleans that came in various colors after use at the New Orleans World's Fair. They were used mostly on Elston/Clybourn again, though they were supposed to be used on Peterson. They deteriorated very badly very quickly as CTA would not do any PM on them what so ever as they did not own them, and were not on very good terms with Flyer at the time.

 

[Busjack]

28 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

This was all the result of a dispute between RTA and West Towns over valuation. Originally West Towns was supposed to get a large group of Grummans in 1982, but because RTA had not purchased West Towns yet, West Towns refused to accept any Grummans except one

 

28 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

Interestingly, West Towns never objected to the 8000's they got in 1977 that immediately took over all service except school runs and a few rush trippers, as these were for "service expansion" while the Grummans would have been "replacements".

The first is correct (there were disputes with all the big private carriers around 1982, essentially because the RTA was not paying on its contracts, and decided to moot the cases the carriers had before the Illinois Commerce Commission for rate hikes by buying them). The second is not-- the distinction being that the RTA was not directly operating any transit system at the time, and  West Towns desperately needed replacements (and initially took most of the albino CTA 9400s). The only conceivable RTA expansion at that time in West Towns territory was 330 and 331.

The other distinction was that West Towns did not have an MTD to get federal grants, as opposed to CSSMTD or Nortran, or even Oak Lawn getting buses for Suburban, so if it was going to get anything, it was going to be through the RTA.

[andrethebusman]

There was a lot of "expansion" in West Towns territory 1977-79: For instance, 309 getting split into 309, 313, 322, and 332, the new 325 - 25th Ave, 320 split into 303, 310, 320, plus many additional trips and expanded hours on just about all routes. RTA was really going gung ho at that time, until the general collapse of 1982. CTA 476-539 (9476-9539) were new at WT, being replaced by 8026-8073. 25 of the 800's, (up to 832 with one retired, one not rebuilt, and 5 rehabbed/repainted in-house) were rebuilt and air-conditioned by Blitz with RTA money, giving WT 48 new buses, 25 rebuilt ones, plus 58 unrebuilt fishbowls and 19 old-looks in 1978.

[andrethebusman]

CTA leased 15 ex-West Towns buses: 816,820,825,829 (rebuilds) 847.848,850,851,875-877,880,886,888-889

[BusHunter]

3 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

A Phoenix was a rebuilt fishbowl. An outfit in Owosso MI would take a fishbowl, cut it off at the bottom of the windows and put a new roof, front, and square windows on it. Result was something similar to a Classic. There were some in Grand Rapids and Battle Creek, maybe a few others. CTA just had the one, but it was actually done by some outfit at 115th and Halsted whose name I can't remember now, but was owned by a "political worthy". It was supposed to be the first of a large group of rehabs, but after this one was done, it was determined to be way too costly. So it remained a one-off, but did run quite a few years. Somebody (Mel?) should have a shot of it.

That almost sounds like what they did with #9532. I'll have to see if i have a shot of it, but I swear i have seen #9228 before and it was normal. I almost want to say it was painted red or blue for the museum service the CTA used to have, I have fleet numbers of those, off the top of my head I think #9247 and #9697 were two of them, something from Limits and probably something from Archer. I saved shots of all the oddballs I could find. I actually have shots at Fg of the #800's sitting in the yard from either you or Mel, I fished off the net because those were something I was fascinated with from my childhood. They looked really old, I believe they had the old tail lights like the original #100's used to have. (early 60's vintage) I also have shots of the oddball buses from Fg that were the Flyer #9800's replacements. I know I have one on the #84 at the Caldwell terminal and i believe there was one at Milwaukee/Imlay on the #56A. Hopetunnel has shots of the #800's at West towns but they weren't blue, west towns must have already been gone by then. 

[sw4400]

I'm on 6882 currently on #80 and it's run number is 6999. What gives? I know it's not out of 74th.

[Busjack]

20 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

There was a lot of "expansion" in West Towns territory 1977-79:

A totally collateral issue to your faulty theory of causation that West Towns thought it was going to be purchased or condemned in 1976, or thereabouts, when it ran the albino buses, and late 1976, when it got the pumpkin ones.

[Busjack]

9 hours ago, sw4400 said:

I'm on 6882 currently on #80 and it's run number is 6999. What gives? I know it's not out of 74th.

Was Mr. CTA calling out the correct stops, or was it "Bing Dorchester?"

[sw4400]

28 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Was Mr. CTA calling out the correct stops, or was it "Bing Dorchester?"

All stops called out by Mr. CTA correctly. LED signage said 80 Irving Park/80 to Lake Shore

[Guest]

23 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

CTA got about 10 of these from, yes, West Towns for a short time in the early 80's. Some were in original blue and white, some in rehabbed (and air conditioned) silver/blue/brown. They were at FG, mostly ran on Elston/Clybourn and N Cicero/Skokie Blvd. CTA drivers did NOT like them as they did not have power steering. After they went back, at least the rehabbed ones were sent off elsewhere by RTA, such as to Safeway. This was all the result of a dispute between RTA and West Towns over valuation. Originally West Towns was supposed to get a large group of Grummans in 1982, but because RTA had not purchased West Towns yet, West Towns refused to accept any Grummans except one - 8204, and kept all 88 fishbowls and 19 4509's "active" to keep up the property's "value". Once the sale was consummated, the Grummans were sent over, the 4509's scrapped, and the fishbowls became RTA's "surge fleet", sent out to whatever operation needed a few buses, both in RTA territory and elsewhere like Green Bay. Interestingly, West Towns never objected to the 8000's they got in 1977 that immediately took over all service except school runs and a few rush trippers, as these were for "service expansion" while the Grummans would have been "replacements".

The other group of loaners near the same time were 20 buses leased from Flyer that were replacements while the 9800's were sent back to Winnipeg for structural reinforcements. 10 were 5303's from Calgary, other 10 were 9 5303's and 1 5301 originally from New Orleans that came in various colors after use at the New Orleans World's Fair. They were used mostly on Elston/Clybourn again, though they were supposed to be used on Peterson. They deteriorated very badly very quickly as CTA would not do any PM on them what so ever as they did not own them, and were not on very good terms with Flyer at the time.

 

I remember those buses on Elston/Clybourn and a few of them made their way to 56 Milwaukee/Logan Square school trips. I would catch one of those if I had the chance  I remember riding the all white, green and the red fishbowls. I wondered at the time where did they get these buses and why? My dad drove one of them on a school tripper.  

[BusHunter]

45 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

All stops called out by Mr. CTA correctly. LED signage said 80 Irving Park/80 to Lake Shore

These signs are so screwed up, i wouldn't be surprised if they said they were headed to Cape Canaveral. Sometimes the school runs on Addison will show a #999 run. That's like an extra. They might be displaying that because the destinations going to Kedzie and probably no programmed run does that. I don't know but if the bus can't receive a run you might be able to put in an extra run number and it would work. But the 6 shows it's just screwed up. 

BTW, i've been seeing strange destinations on the #56, one day I saw a sb say it was going to Western.Blue line and one day in the loop I saw one was headed to California/Blue line. I didn't know such signs exist.

[jajuan]

13 hours ago, sw4400 said:

I'm on 6882 currently on #80 and it's run number is 6999. What gives? I know it's not out of 74th.

 

3 hours ago, sw4400 said:

All stops called out by Mr. CTA correctly. LED signage said 80 Irving Park/80 to Lake Shore

 

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

These signs are so screwed up, i wouldn't be surprised if they said they were headed to Cape Canaveral. Sometimes the school runs on Addison will show a #999 run. That's like an extra. They might be displaying that because the destinations going to Kedzie and probably no programmed run does that. I don't know but if the bus can't receive a run you might be able to put in an extra run number and it would work. But the 6 shows it's just screwed up. 

BTW, i've been seeing strange destinations on the #56, one day I saw a sb say it was going to Western.Blue line and one day in the loop I saw one was headed to California/Blue line. I didn't know such signs exist.

Yeah the signs are increasingly more screwed up on those buses. There are buses with the head signs giving the correct route while the side signs were stuck showing routes the bus previously ran and vice versa. Some buses are out there with triangles in the display. Some signs are frozen and don't flip to the destination. Some don't change to the opposite direction readings. And others don't display anything at all. It's getting to a point that I'm seeing more FG operators out on their routes with paper signs on the windshields kind of like how NP was doing during the final year and months of the MAN Americanas.