CTA 'L' Rosters

[garmon757]

So, I suppose that the junking of the 2400s assigned there is starting?

I believe so because the 2600s are migrated consistently on the Purple Line.

[BusHunter]

So i think that says who is getting #5000's next without a doubt. Looks like the #2400's will retire last on the Orange line. I wonder if Howard yard will keep the work train though. They might.

Weird I still haven't spotted the Santa cars back in service, they should have been back by Feb.

[sw4400]

So i think that says who is getting #5000's next without a doubt. Looks like the #2400's will retire last on the Orange line. I wonder if Howard yard will keep the work train though. They might.

Weird I still haven't spotted the Santa cars back in service, they should have been back by Feb.

Well 2893-2898 are work motor capable... perhaps they are being used for off-revenue tasks?

[Bus fanatic30]

They are believe I saw them on the blue line last week

[4CottageGrove95th]

So i think that says who is getting #5000's next without a doubt.

Maybe the obvious went over my head (and what esle is new, LOL). But please tell me WHO.

Will it be the Orange Line or the Purple??????????

[BusHunter]

The Purple line, why else would they be sending #2400's down to the orange line? I've been noticing the Orange line has been running more #2400's lately than #3200's. The Purple line is lucky if they are running 20 #2400's now. I guess Howard yard finally hit capacity. They can only store so much.

[Sam92]

The Purple line, why else would they be sending #2400's down to the orange line? I've been noticing the Orange line has been running more #2400's lately than #3200's. The Purple line is lucky if they are running 20 #2400's now. I guess Howard yard finally hit capacity. They can only store so much.

So how is this gonna work out? Are Purple Line 2600's gonna replace Orange Line 2400's as 5000's come in to Howard? Then after Orange Line gets 5000's, the 3200's start replacing the oldest 2600's on the blue line?

[Busjack]

So how is this gonna work out? Are Purple Line 2600's gonna replace Orange Line 2400's as 5000's come in to Howard? Then after Orange Line gets 5000's, the 3200's start replacing the oldest 2600's on the blue line?

Both are unlikely, as the 7000s specs indicate that 400 2600s and all the 3200s will be left at the end of the 5000s. The press originally said that Purple Line would be next, and the fair inference from the numbers above is that the Orange Line isn't getting any, as 400 remaining cars would be enough for 60 on the Orange and 340 on the Blue.

[BusHunter]

Both are unlikely, as the 7000s specs indicate that 400 2600s and all the 3200s will be left at the end of the 5000s. The press originally said that Purple Line would be next, and the fair inference from the numbers above is that the Orange Line isn't getting any, as 400 remaining cars would be enough for 60 on the Orange and 340 on the Blue.

So you still think the orange line is going to run #3200 spares? I think it's going down just as Sam indicated myself. Right now though I think they are trying to weed out the oldest and worst running #2400's on the Orange line. That the reason for the #2400 transfer.

[4CottageGrove95th]

Well, honestly, to me it seems only fair that the Purple Line should receive the next (and from what's been said so far) the last batch of 5000s. The reason I say that is because the Orange Line opened right from the start with brand-new equipment, namely the 3200 series back in the early 90s. The Purple Line, on the other hand, always seemed to end up with mostly "hand-me-down" equipment for as long as I can remember.

[Busjack]

So you still think the orange line is going to run #3200 spares? ...

Why do you think CTA announced a supposedly 10 year rehab for them?

Well, honestly, to me it seems only fair that the Purple Line should receive the next (and from what's been said so far) the last batch of 5000s. The reason I say that is because the Orange Line opened right from the start with brand-new equipment, namely the 3200 series back in the early 90s. The Purple Line, on the other hand, always seemed to end up with mostly "hand-me-down" equipment for as long as I can remember.

The usual older was justified that most of the cars were needed for the express, which ran basically 6 hours a day, as opposed to say, the Red Line, which ran 8 car trains maybe 18 hours a day. But as I noted, the countervailing consideration this time is that cars stored at Linden have to be able to couple up with cars from Howard.

But, if the 7000s come as soon on the heels of the end of the 5000s, it is not going to make any difference.

[BusHunter]

Why do you think CTA announced a supposedly 10 year rehab for them?

I was thinking today that it might be impossible for the Orange line to hang on to the #3200's. When they go to rehab up to 40 cars may be out of service at a time and they will have to have a float of 40 cars. That float will have to be #2600's. They can't just take the cars out of service without a replacement as they need those extra cars for the Brown/Orange runs in the morning.

[Sam92]

Both are unlikely, as the 7000s specs indicate that 400 2600s and all the 3200s will be left at the end of the 5000s. The press originally said that Purple Line would be next, and the fair inference from the numbers above is that the Orange Line isn't getting any, as 400 remaining cars would be enough for 60 on the Orange and 340 on the Blue.

okay when was it said that orange line wasn't getting any 5000's? Last I checked the only lines that weren't getting them were brown and blue.

[Busjack]

okay when was it said that orange line wasn't getting any 5000's? Last I checked the only lines that weren't getting them were brown and blue.

It wasn't said, but the only time anything was said was before the "fleet expansion," including the 50 or so 2400s to Midway Yard. The fleet expansion has subsequently been said.

I'm just saying that between the 3200s rehab announcement and the schedule in the 7000s specs (they replace 400 2600s and 256 3200s), it sure doesn't look like it.

[Busjack]

I was thinking today that it might be impossible for the Orange line to hang on to the #3200's. When they go to rehab up to 40 cars may be out of service at a time and they will have to have a float of 40 cars. That float will have to be #2600's. They can't just take the cars out of service without a replacement as they need those extra cars for the Brown/Orange runs in the morning.

Clearly, it isn't like sending 40 cars at a time to Alstom, like what was done with the 2600s. From the announcements and contract awards to date, it seems like a piecemeal job over two years. The question comes down to how fast Skokie Shops can turn them around. Undoubtedly, though, this will continue the fleet bloat that we've had up to now (again I don't have the numbers, but they have received 400 5000s, but the scrapping can't be more than maybe 270).

[artthouwill]

Well, honestly, to me it seems only fair that the Purple Line should receive the next (and from what's been said so far) the last batch of 5000s. The reason I say that is because the Orange Line opened right from the start with brand-new equipment, namely the 3200 series back in the early 90s. The Purple Line, on the other hand, always seemed to end up with mostly "hand-me-down" equipment for as long as I can remember.

I disagree. First the Purple Line can get 5000s from Howard Yard at any time, seeing that currently 2400s and 2600s are interchangeable between the Red and Purple Lines. These cars also will get less wear and tear as they only run the expresses during weekday rush periods and very few cars on the shuttle off peak. The Orange Line should be the next line to get the 5000s. As those cars come into service, the 3200s can get their supposed rehab and then get sent to the Brown Line to rehab those cars. The question is will the rehabs make them compatable with the 5000s and 7000s?

[Busjack]

...The question is will the rehabs make them compatable with the 5000s and 7000s?

No. That was shot down when Hilkevitch blew the whistle on a single source deal that CTA was supposed to have in the works with Bombardier. For instance, the specs for the electronic signs say they have to be compatible with the two knob system on the existing cars, rather than the operator's control panel on the 5000s.

I guess the question is whether that deal reported at $1 million a car would have made more sense than spending $650k/car now plus the replacement at $1.6 million, except that the replacement would presumably have a greater service life.

[BusHunter]

I disagree. First the Purple Line can get 5000s from Howard Yard at any time, seeing that currently 2400s and 2600s are interchangeable between the Red and Purple Lines. These cars also will get less wear and tear as they only run the expresses during weekday rush periods and very few cars on the shuttle off peak. The Orange Line should be the next line to get the 5000s. As those cars come into service, the 3200s can get their supposed rehab and then get sent to the Brown Line to rehab those cars. The question is will the rehabs make them compatable with the 5000s and 7000s?

I'm pretty sure the #3200 rehabs are not scheduled until 2015. By August or September, the next line will be getting it's #5000 cars, so by the time the rehabs actually do start they will be getting #5000's on the Orange line.

[Busjack]

I'm pretty sure the #3200 rehabs are not scheduled until 2015. By August or September, the next line will be getting it's #5000 cars, so by the time the rehabs actually do start they will be getting #5000's on the Orange line.

The first is correct, the second you don't know.

[BusHunter]

The first is correct, the second you don't know.

It's just simple math Busjack. The Red line has 126 #2600 cars left. If they delivered 6 cars a week, which is what they have been doing 126 more #5000 cars will be on the Red line by the last week of July. If they delivered only 4 cars a week that gets pushed back to the first week of Oct. but that's not likely during the summer. So the same could be said for the Purple line based on 6 cars a week; their delivery is finished (based on 90 cars) in just 11 or 12 weeks. That's roughly end of the year based on 6 cars a week delivery, January or Feb 2015 for 4 car sets being delivered. Then the Orange line would either be Jan-March 2015 to about August or September 2015. I believe somewhere they started deliveries are complete by Sept 2015 anyway, so the timing's right. It may even be possible the #3200 rehab will happen after the #5000's are here. CTA's timetable for projects are usually delayed. Just look at the Wilson project or the timetable for the #7900 prototype.

[Busjack]

It's just simple math Busjack. ...

So, if it is simple math, what's your explanation of in Addendum 1 of the 7000s specs; it says that 400 cars will be ordered to replace 2600s, and then the next options of 156 and 100 are to replace the 3200s?* And don't tell me that's hearsay; I downloaded that.

There is a point that the target dates for the 256 cars and the 10 year rehabs don't jive, but there is merely your estimates of what you think the lines need vs. what the Chief Rail Engineer said. So, unless you have a link to some proof within CTA about future car assignments (which you can post), I don't buy the premises of your math.

____

*See, starting here, for the breakdown of the options (predated the addendum noted above).

Update: Reference to a Press Release, which is a more public source of the same information.

[BusHunter]

So, if it is simple math, what's your explanation of in Addendum 1 of the 7000s specs; it says that 400 cars will be ordered to replace 2600s, and then the next options of 156 and 100 are to replace the 3200s?* And don't tell me that's hearsay; I downloaded that.

7000s.jpg

There is a point that the target dates for the 256 cars and the 10 year rehabs don't jive, but there is merely your estimates of what you think the lines need vs. what the Chief Rail Engineer said. So, unless you have a link to some proof within CTA about future car assignments (which you can post), I don't buy the premises of your math.

____

*See, starting here, for the breakdown of the options (predated the addendum noted above).

Update: Reference to a Press Release, which is a more public source of the same information.

I'm not debating the #7000's here. I'm debating the delivery of the #5000 series, in which you told me "I don't know". I don't know how we got on this subject, but since we're here startup delivery is projected to be 2017-18 for the #7000's right. If you take into account a prototype, that would be at least a year of testing. (2019) Delivery if going at the present rate will be about 200 cars a year, so it will take them at least 2 years (2021-22) even get to the starting point of replacing the #3200's. If they rehab the #3200 cars in 2015, they only need to make it to 2025 to comply with what they said. Now with all the spare cars we have lying around now, about 250 cars, it wouldn't be out of the premise to store the #3200's the last year or two. If they wanted they could order extra #7000's to replace the spares, but to me that would be a waste and most likely be completed around 2023-24 as well. Leaving them about a year or two shy of what they said. Now looking at my #6000's bus rehab list, CTA had rehabbed some of those as close as a year or two before retirement, so what else is new. To me the #3200's remind me of what happened to the #5-50's. They sat around for most of their rehabbed status and then were retired. It's not like CTA hasn't stored buses and railcars before. Is there a federal guideline that the #3200's have to be around for 10 years post rehab? If so possibly, they can extend the Ryan in 10 years and satisfy that obligation?

[Busjack]

I'm not debating the #7000's here. I'm debating the delivery of the #5000 series, in which you told me "I don't know". ...

Essentially, you are filibustering. If the specs and press releases say 656 2600s and 3200s are to be replaced by 7000s, that also indicates that 714 5000s will be on the property before then, while the 656 older cars will also be there, plus or minus a few. Essentially CTA is saying by then there will be a use for 1370 cars, not counting any possibly foreseeable fleet expansion for the final 190 options. As far as the 400 2600s are concerned, the only allocation that conforms to current reality is 340 on the Blue Line and 60 at Midway. 3200s stay where they are.

Now, if you are saying that Claypool is urinating away $166 million on a very short lived rehab of the 3200s, I'm not in a position to argue with that. The only thing I have said up to now is that my math indicates the above, plus with current allocations, there will be just enough 5000s to cover the Red and Purple Lines.

[BusHunter]

Essentially, you are filibustering. If the specs and press releases say 656 2600s and 3200s are to be replaced by 7000s, that also indicates that 714 5000s will be on the property before then, while the 656 older cars will also be there, plus or minus a few. Essentially CTA is saying by then there will be a use for 1370 cars, not counting any possibly foreseeable fleet expansion for the final 190 options. As far as the 400 2600s are concerned, the only allocation that conforms to current reality is 340 on the Blue Line and 60 at Midway. 3200s stay where they are.

Now, if you are saying that Claypool is urinating away $166 million on a very short lived rehab of the 3200s, I'm not in a position to argue with that. The only thing I have said up to now is that my math indicates the above, plus with current allocations, there will be just enough 5000s to cover the Red and Purple Lines.

But by what you state above, the Orange line will not be receiving #5000's. Then all the major news outlets were wrong when they said the orange line was getting #5000's!! In your scenario the Purple line then will be getting 200 cars at least!! That goes against what has been said for years now that the Brown and Blue lines will be the only remaining lines with older cars. I think in a way we are being deceived by what's on the Purple line roster. No way are all those #2400 cars still around. There just isn't the space for it. Unfortunately I can't update that part of the roster until I receive word of what has been dealt. I can only state 20 cars are in service. I don't think CTa would use #5000's as part of the stored cars. That would just be too wild an assumption and the media would have a blast with that.

[Busjack]

But by what you state above, the Orange line will not be receiving #5000's. Then all the major news outlets were wrong when they said the orange line was getting #5000's!! In your scenario the Purple line then will be getting 200 cars at least!! ...

The only news outlet that was cited here was NBC, and at the time I commented, well that matches the number of cars projected. Moving ~60 2400s to Midway for Brownage service, and various CTA statements about fleet expansion came after that.

Also, I am not relying on what Purple Line junk may still be in the yard, but essentially on chicago-l,org's car assignment sheets, for gross numbers per line as opposed to particular cars (although its 1360 total number is bloated with 64 long term holds, which might be enough to substitute for the 2400s at Midway, but certainly not the 3200s). With 400 5000s now on the property, I assume that some number of 2400s has been scrapped by now. However, there is no indication that 400 cars have been scrapped; as I said earlier, it is more likely around 270.