Pink Line

[BusHunter]

35 minutes ago, garmon757 said:

True and what I don't understand that Pink and Green Line shares nearly or over (because of some 5200s there) 200 railcars. I wish I can talk to the management about it. 

i wish they could run some blue lines through to 54th again. They had so much more space on those trains and you didn't have to tour the loop on your connection!!

[garmon757]

33 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

i wish they could run some blue lines through to 54th again. They had so much more space on those trains and you didn't have to tour the loop on your connection!!

Damnnnnn right! 

[juelzkellz]

On July 5, 2016 at 11:31 PM, BusHunter said:

i wish they could run some blue lines through to 54th again. They had so much more space on those trains and you didn't have to tour the loop on your connection!!

When the CTA reopened the Douglas branch to full service after renovation project, the Pink Line and the Blue Line ran concurrently, with the Blue Line running a few trains per hour during rush hour. The CTA cut Blue Line service on the Douglas branch after awhile because the trains were basically empty. 

[jajuan]

2 hours ago, juelzkellz said:

When the CTA reopened the Douglas branch to full service after renovation project, the Pink Line and the Blue Line ran concurrently, with the Blue Line running a few trains per hour during rush hour. The CTA cut Blue Line service on the Douglas branch after awhile because the trains were basically empty. 

Running the Blue Line through to 54th/Cermak at a 30 minute headway on rush period only service pretty much is why the trains were empty. The other part of it was of course the Pink Line becoming successful enough during the consecutive experimental periods CTA held for it to stand alone as a separate rail route on a permanent basis as the other and bigger reason Blue Line service to 54th/Cermak was cut. It can be argued that CTA setting Blue Line service on the Douglas Branch on that particular service structure after the Pink Line was introduced was evidence that CTA intended the remaining Blue Line Douglas service to be temporary should the Pink Line succeed as a separate route. And here we are now with the line having had its 10th anniversary late last month. 

[BusHunter]

Yeah running it on a 30 minute headway made it destined to fail. Who wants to wait that long for the "L"? In hindsight though where they are saving by not running blue line 8 car trains they are losing by running more 4 car pink line trains. They slowed the loop traffic causing more delays with yet another line, now you might not think that this is a big deal but if trains are delayed standing waiting for signals more are needed to run through the gridlock. This may be why the Green and Orange lines have so many extra cars.

The big gain for CTA is probably they can shut down pink line service overnight and they couldn't do that with the blue line. This allows them not only to save money on operators. It saves on CA's, although some I believe were securitas guards, unless that has changed. (haven't seen any lately)

[Busjack]

14 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah running it on a 30 minute headway made it destined to fail. Who wants to wait that long for the "L"?

Basically it was only Kruesi placating a vocal minority for a short period. If people from Douglas really wanted to go to O'Hare, a transfer at Clark and Lake is quicker than waiting a half hour.

[BusHunter]

9 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Basically it was only Kruesi placating a vocal minority for a short period. If people from Douglas really wanted to go to O'Hare, a transfer at Clark and Lake is quicker than waiting a half hour.

I don't know it's close. A trip around the loop "L" is 12 minutes. Waiting time could be 7-20 minutes, then the walk upstairs is a good 3 minutes, so they are basically the same. The real winner is inbound commuting but then you have to wrestle with the throngs of people getting on at Clark/Lake subway.

Oh I forgot probably 3-5 minutes waiting for signals ahead.

[Tcmetro]

There's a lot of congestion on the Loop L, especially at peak. Removing the Pink would make service more reliable across all lines.

There's a couple good reasons for reinstating the Blue Line to 54/Cermak and couple reasons to not do so.

 

For:

1. Blue Line short turns at UIC hold up FP trains. Short-turns could be sent to 54th, and the weekday midday and evening services could improve to 6 min on the most used part of the Blue Line, on the NW side.

2. Reliability would increase (hopefully, Blue Line has it's issues too)

 

Against:

3. Ashland and Morgan would lose service. These stops are massively popular, and the loss of frequency could overcrowd the Green Line.

4. West Loop-IMD commutes would be disrupted. Many who work in IMD prefer to not live in the North Side because of the heavy traffic and the long train commutes.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Tcmetro said:

For:

1. Blue Line short turns at UIC hold up FP trains. Short-turns could be sent to 54th, and the weekday midday and evening services could improve to 6 min on the most used part of the Blue Line, on the NW side.

2. Reliability would increase (hopefully, Blue Line has it's issues too)

1. Essentially, the problem is is that when the Pink Line was inaugurated, it was also said it would increase Blue Line service on the Forest Park segment. In that certain rush hour trips were cut back to UIC-Halsted, it shows there is no need for that service. Similarly, until such time as 8 car trains become necessary on the Pink Line, it is not shown that Douglas needs 8 car service every 7 to 8 minutes, which Forest Park now gets, either. Unless CTA planners are totally whack, where the service is needed is between Jefferson Park and UIC.

2. "The Blue Line has its issues, too," is certainly correct. One of the problems it now has (reportedly until the Eisenhower project is completed) is that it can't get cars back from Forest Park on time.

[jajuan]

On 7/27/2016 at 10:41 PM, Busjack said:

Basically it was only Kruesi placating a vocal minority for a short period. If people from Douglas really wanted to go to O'Hare, a transfer at Clark and Lake is quicker than waiting a half hour.

CTA actually suggested that in response to their squawking that they were losing access to O'Hare. They claimed at the time that it wasn't good enough. 

5 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

There's a lot of congestion on the Loop L, especially at peak. Removing the Pink would make service more reliable across all lines.

There's a couple good reasons for reinstating the Blue Line to 54/Cermak and couple reasons to not do so.

 

For:

1. Blue Line short turns at UIC hold up FP trains. Short-turns could be sent to 54th, and the weekday midday and evening services could improve to 6 min on the most used part of the Blue Line, on the NW side.

2. Reliability would increase (hopefully, Blue Line has it's issues too)

 

Against:

3. Ashland and Morgan would lose service. These stops are massively popular, and the loss of frequency could overcrowd the Green Line.

4. West Loop-IMD commutes would be disrupted. Many who work in IMD prefer to not live in the North Side because of the heavy traffic and the long train commutes.

Umm sorry but most of that congestion is due to the Brown Line, running at as little as 3 mins headways during rush hour after the increase in service in 2012 from Claypool's crowd reduction plan. The Orange Line is a close second with rush headways as little as 5 mins. Of course part of that for both are the morning Brownage runs. And look for that congestion to increase from the upcoming bump in service on the Green Line. The Pink Line has pretty much always been on a minimum 10 headway its whole service life so far. Adding those factors with Busjack's observations, I think we should back away from suggestions of axing the Pink Line as a separate route independent of the Blue Line. 

[Juniorz]

The UIC trips are to keep service frequency's respectable on the O'Hare Branch. In March, we saw why the Pink Line is more vital to the Loop than operating on The Blue Line.

[Sam92]

3 hours ago, Juniorz said:

The UIC trips are to keep service frequency's respectable on the O'Hare Branch. In March, we saw why the Pink Line is more vital to the Loop than operating on The Blue Line.

What happened in march to prove that?

[Juniorz]

That Pink and Blue line schedules don't coordinate with each other. Would it be easier to through-route the Pink Line along the O'Hare branch, yes, but in operational sense, it would have been disruptive to Blue Line operations, then on top of that, you have the union rules which may stipulate, for example,  say  work from the 54th terminal is taking work away from say, Forest Park or Rosemont, therefore violating union rules.

 

[Busjack]

15 minutes ago, Juniorz said:

That Pink and Blue line schedules don't coordinate with each other. Would it be easier to through-route the Pink Line along the O'Hare branch, yes, but in operational sense, it would have been disruptive to Blue Line operations, then on top of that, you have the union rules which may stipulate, for example,  say  work from the 54th terminal is taking work away from say, Forest Park or Rosemont, therefore violating union rules.

 

I think the simpler answer is that the philosophy of the Crowd Reduction Plan, and similar restriucturings, is to give to one, you have to take from somewhere else. Thus, to improve frequency between Jefferson Park and UIC, the Pink Line was disconnected and, more recently,  the Forest Park frequency was cut back.

Union rules may have something to do with it, in that the ATU 241 site had a complaint about FG shop working being moved to NP, but, in general, CTA is doing business with one set of unions (compared to Pace having ATU and Teamsters, with separate contracts in each division). However, at the time when the welds had to be redone on the 5000s, it was reported that Pink Line work was being done at the Lake and Harlem Green Line shop.

[TransitXan17]

I think that the Pink line should be re-routed to go counter-clockwise on the loop, here are my reasons:

A. The Brown Line and part of the Green Line are the ONLY lines that operate on the counter-clockwise in the loop with the Orange, Pink, Purple, and part of the Green Line operating on the clockwise track of the loop. 2 vs 4 lines

B. All other entrances to the loop have two line splitting off. Brown/Purple and Green/Orange. But on Lake Street the Green and Pink Lines go in the same direction. So if someone lives in Oak Park and works at the Sears Tower (It will forever be Sears) the would transfer from the Green Line to the Pink at Clinton then ride the train ALL AROUND the loop. If the Pink Line is rerouted this wouldn't be an issue

C. It's very cheap, the only money the CTA will be putting into this project is the new signs... that's it.

Look at this document I made to get a better understanding of my idea.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NXOvO1I7s3QNDEThQljSkRQuSgM1w1M-RRc1JGT5vYw/edit?usp=sharing

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

1 hour ago, TransitXan17 said:

I think that the Pink line should be re-routed to go counter-clockwise on the loop...

Although I believe this has been discussed before, I can't find the previous posts. However, there are some challenges to this idea.

1 hour ago, TransitXan17 said:

A. The Brown Line and part of the Green Line are the ONLY lines that operate on the counter-clockwise in the loop with the Orange, Pink, Purple, and part of the Green Line operating on the clockwise track of the loop. 2 vs 4 lines

It's not really a matter of the number of lines on each side, but the frequency of trains on each track. The 4 lines on the inner track operate with larger intervals than the Brown Line, and can coexist on that one track because of that. While the Brown Line may be the only line using 1/2 the length of the outer tracks, during rush hour trains assigned to the line can be as close as 4 minutes from each other, on scheduled time, which doesn't factor in any unusual operations. Factor in the Green Line on two sides of the Loop, and there are three permanent lines on the outer track, and two lines on the inner track because the Purple Line doesn't run full time.

1 hour ago, TransitXan17 said:

...So if someone lives in Oak Park and works at the Sears Tower (It will forever be Sears) the would transfer from the Green Line to the Pink at Clinton then ride the train ALL AROUND the loop. If the Pink Line is rerouted this wouldn't be an issue...

However this can be an issue when they want to go home. The absence of a Washington/Wells to Clinton route means that one would either have to ride the Pink Line around the Loop to exit, or board an Orange Line and ride it to Clark/Lake to transfer to a Green or Pink Line. This can also be an issue for those who arrive at Ogilvie Transportation Center and finish their commute on the L using other lines. For example I took a Metra train to Ogilvie to go to Northwestern Memorial via the Red Line. The first train that showed up was a Pink Line, and because it was going clockwise, I knew I could easily ride two stops to State/Lake and hop on the Red Line from there. If it didn't do that, I'd have to wait longer for a Green Line. Having lived in Oak Park, I know the annoyance of seeing very few of those trains, especially stacked against the multiple outbound Brown Line trains at Clark/Lake.

1 hour ago, TransitXan17 said:

...C. It's very cheap, the only money the CTA will be putting into this project is the new signs... that's it.

Only if you don't count the time and money needed to notify and possibly train operators of the new routing, assist customer service agents on how to help people with the change, add temporary signage (like on those little boards you can set up anywhere) to remind people where to go for the initial service change, train Tower 18 personnel on how to handle and route Pink Line trains during the manned periods during rush hour, modifying and possible re-recording of onboard train announcements, and any other costs associated with changes. Even if some people go for the modifications, they may not add up to cover the costs, like when the CTA added an extra run to the Purple Line Express for convenience. It attracted some riders in the trial phase, but did not warrant enough riders to continue the change, and that was just one addition to the line.

[artthouwill]

58 minutes ago, TransitXan17 said:

I think that the Pink line should be re-routed to go counter-clockwise on the loop, here are my reasons:

A. The Brown Line and part of the Green Line are the ONLY lines that operate on the counter-clockwise in the loop with the Orange, Pink, Purple, and part of the Green Line operating on the clockwise track of the loop. 2 vs 4 lines

B. All other entrances to the loop have two line splitting off. Brown/Purple and Green/Orange. But on Lake Street the Green and Pink Lines go in the same direction. So if someone lives in Oak Park and works at the Sears Tower (It will forever be Sears) the would transfer from the Green Line to the Pink at Clinton then ride the train ALL AROUND the loop. If the Pink Line is rerouted this wouldn't be an issue

C. It's very cheap, the only money the CTA will be putting into this project is the new signs... that's it.

Look at this document I made to get a better understanding of my idea.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NXOvO1I7s3QNDEThQljSkRQuSgM1w1M-RRc1JGT5vYw/edit?usp=sharing

Welcome to the  forum. 

While I understand  your  reasoning, I disagree with you.  Here is  why.

First,  of all of the Loop L lines, the Brown Line has the highest  frequency of  service  with the heaviest amount of  ridership.   Running  Pink Line trains with the Brown  and Green  would create major backups.

Secondly, Pink Line riders would lose the immediate  transfer that they have (and were promised) to the Blue  Line  at Clark and  Lake.   

Thirdly,  because  of the heavier ridership  on the West leg of the Green  Line, Pink Line  trains supplement  service at Ashland,  Morgan,  and Clinton  into the  Loop.  Outbound  riders can choose  based on  their needs.

Besides that,  Pink Line 's Polk St station  is it's busiest  along  it's branch, and it's those riders  that want that Clark and Lake  connection. 

 

 

[Pace831]

1 hour ago, TransitXan17 said:

I think that the Pink line should be re-routed to go counter-clockwise on the loop, here are my reasons:

A. The Brown Line and part of the Green Line are the ONLY lines that operate on the counter-clockwise in the loop with the Orange, Pink, Purple, and part of the Green Line operating on the clockwise track of the loop. 2 vs 4 lines

B. All other entrances to the loop have two line splitting off. Brown/Purple and Green/Orange. But on Lake Street the Green and Pink Lines go in the same direction. So if someone lives in Oak Park and works at the Sears Tower (It will forever be Sears) the would transfer from the Green Line to the Pink at Clinton then ride the train ALL AROUND the loop. If the Pink Line is rerouted this wouldn't be an issue

C. It's very cheap, the only money the CTA will be putting into this project is the new signs... that's it.

Look at this document I made to get a better understanding of my idea.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NXOvO1I7s3QNDEThQljSkRQuSgM1w1M-RRc1JGT5vYw/edit?usp=sharing

I don't know how significant this is, but with the current setup it is possible to take a trip between any two loop stations without transferring. If the Pink line were rerouted as you suggest, you couldn't get from State/Lake to Quincy (for example) without a transfer. Unless it is rush hour when the Purple express is running.

If I were going to suggest any changes, I would say to put the Purple line on the outer loop. While it eliminates the choice of direction for those entering the loop from Mart, I don't think that is a huge consideration for most people. It does address your point about crowding on the inner loop platforms. The main benefit would be Brown or Purple riders could board whichever comes first, since those lines overlap south of Belmont, resulting in shorter wait times overall.

But ultimately, the way it is now is what CTA determined to be most efficient. Otherwise they would have changed it by now.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

1 minute ago, Pace831 said:

...If I were going to suggest any changes, I would say to put the Purple line on the outer loop. While it eliminates the choice of direction for those entering the loop from Mart, I don't think that is a huge consideration for most people. It does address your point about crowding on the inner loop platforms. The main benefit would be Brown or Purple riders could board whichever comes first, since those lines overlap south of Belmont, resulting in shorter wait times overall.

I remember when this was the case during the Brown Line reconstruction. They had purple stripes on the outer platform signs to complete it. I don't know of any feedback/public opinion made during the change though. However if you want to take the Purple Line south to the Blue Line, this would definitely affect your trip, since your only two options would be to ride the Purple Line around to Clark/Lake or Library, or transfer to the Red Line, which can be quite crowded and unpleasant.

[artthouwill]

3 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

I don't know how significant this is, but with the current setup it is possible to take a trip between any two loop stations without transferring. If the Pink line were rerouted as you suggest, you couldn't get from State/Lake to Quincy (for example) without a transfer. Unless it is rush hour when the Purple express is running.

If I were going to suggest any changes, I would say to put the Purple line on the outer loop. While it eliminates the choice of direction for those entering the loop from Mart, I don't think that is a huge consideration for most people. It does address your point about crowding on the inner loop platforms. The main benefit would be Brown or Purple riders could board whichever comes first, since those lines overlap south of Belmont, resulting in shorter wait times overall.

That has been  done before but people  squawked  about  not having  the choice.   So now the only  time  it is done is when there's a  switching  problem  at Lake/Wells.

[Pace831]

2 minutes ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

I remember when this was the case during the Brown Line reconstruction. They had purple stripes on the outer platform signs to complete it. I don't know of any feedback/public opinion made during the change though. However if you want to take the Purple Line south to the Blue Line, this would definitely affect your trip, since your only two options would be to ride the Purple Line around to Clark/Lake or Library, or transfer to the Red Line, which can be quite crowded and unpleasant.

 

2 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

That has been  done before but people  squawked  about  not having  the choice.   So now the only  time  it is done is when there's a  switching  problem  at Lake/Wells.

Sorry I hadn't yet read either of your posts above mine. I think we all posted at about the same time.

This discussion just reinforces the point that there are pros and cons no matter how it is done. The current setup must have been determined to be the best, or it would have been changed already.

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, Pace831 said:

But ultimately, the way it is now is what CTA determined to be most efficient. Otherwise they would have changed it by now.

I'm sure that the ultimate issue is that the Brown Line is the only one with a heavy passenger load.Brown Line runs 8 car trains every 4-8 minutes (plus has to interline with Brownage), Pink Line every 9-10 minutes, Orange Line about every 9 minutes (not counting Brownage) and Purple Line every 6-7 minutes. There probably are also issues at Tower 18.

[TransitXan17]

Sorry I'm doing this on my iPad, this might be a low quality picture but in this chart is shows that more people ride the orange line than the brown line, mainly because it serves an airport. So according to this, I'm guessing that the orange line can handle more capacity than the brown line.

[TransitXan17]

Also take a look at this picture too. The Orange Line ridership went up by 3.3% while the Brown Line only went up 0.9%. Meanwhile the Pink also went up higher by 9.2%, this may be a sign that certain lines will have to increase more capacity than others, and may reroute some trains on the loop.

[Busjack]

35 minutes ago, TransitXan17 said:

Sorry I'm doing this on my iPad, this might be a low quality picture but in this chart is shows that more people ride the orange line than the brown line, mainly because it serves an airport. So according to this, I'm guessing that the orange line can handle more capacity than the brown line.

Not sure of your source, or whether it proves anything. All of the Loop L stations are marked Orange in the inset (except Thompson Center, marked Blue). The official Ridership Report only reports total boardings  for each Loop station and does not differentiate to which line (for instance at Qunicy-Wells, it says "Brown, Orange, Pink, Purple Express").* Hence, unless you have some source that personally verified how many passengers boarded each train off the platform after having gone through the fare controls, these numbers are fallacious.

On your second point, it appears that the Brown Line has gone down from every 3 minutes to every 4.

 

_____________

*Similarly, Belmont and Fullerton count only as Red Line in the Ridership Report, although CTA purports to count cross-platform transfers. I bet that the only things that count as Brown Line are Southport through Kimball, Wellington,Diversey, and Armitage through Merchandise Mart. Note the two swollen Brown bumps, presumably Wellington and Diversey, unless this map is counting Fullerton as Brown.