Blue Line Collision

[Busjack]

Latest Tribune article has more from Kelly, including that the keys were needed "one to enter the operator's booth and one to turn on the train." He also mentions the dead man's switch, trips on the interlockings, and that the train would have had to power up at least one incline.

So, if it was a mechanical failure, it looks like it overcame about 4 systems.

I was questioning whether to reply to BusHunter's post "didn't someone take away its cigarettes?"

[sw4400]

My speculation... just that...

-The train sitting in the Forest Park Yard had the Operator's Booth accessed. The train was powered most likely because a Service Technician in the Forest Park Yard was getting ready to take the four-car train to where it was going for repairs. The Service Technician left the train for a few minutes for whatever reason(instructions from Forest Park Yard Office, bathroom use, etc...) and the service brakes went out on the train, which would coincide with BusHunter's thread about his sources saying a north pocket smoking with the doors opened. If the service brakes are burned up, I don't know if the safety systems were damaged during the loss of braking or maybe they were not working and that is why the cars were out of service.

[joechicago]

I wonder if both the cars that were damaged have to be scrapped, will they mate the 2 remaining single cars together?

[mkohut]

I wonder if both the cars that were damaged have to be scrapped, will they mate the 2 remaining single cars together?

I think its the last thing they are thinking about.

[ChicagoNova]

I saw the pictures of the collision, and I was like WOW!! First time I've seen rail cars messed up like that in years.

[BusHunter]

My speculation... just that...

-The train sitting in the Forest Park Yard had the Operator's Booth accessed. The train was powered most likely because a Service Technician in the Forest Park Yard was getting ready to take the four-car train to where it was going for repairs. The Service Technician left the train for a few minutes for whatever reason(instructions from Forest Park Yard Office, bathroom use, etc...) and the service brakes went out on the train, which would coincide with BusHunter's thread about his sources saying a north pocket smoking with the doors opened. If the service brakes are burned up, I don't know if the safety systems were damaged during the loss of braking or maybe they were not working and that is why the cars were out of service.

The train wasn't going to skokie for repairs. (at least not yet, CTA doesn't do equipment moves in the rush hour) It sounds like the cars were in the process of being repaired at Forest Pk and for whatever reason the train got away from the mechanic. It sounds like some of it's safety mechanisms were cut out, which would make the train more vulnerable to becoming a runaway and it did exactly that. What amazes me is the train didn't derail all the way from the shop to 1/2 from the terminal.

[sw4400]

Which one was the runaway and which was the revenue train? The more heavily damaged 3177-3178 train or the less damaged 3171-3172?

[qwantae]

Looks like a consist led by 3171 crashed into a consist with 3177 on the end:

I can't believe two of them were 1987 models (Younger 2600s) but looks like R.I.P. to #3177. I'm glad people were okay.

[Busjack]

Maybe somebody can answer this Why isn't Claypool there or did Emanuel told him not to be there?

Late WGN TV news had Brian Steele, also Claypool was standing behind the NTSB investigator, but had nothing to say for the tube.

[Busjack]

The train wasn't going to skokie for repairs. (at least not yet, CTA doesn't do equipment moves in the rush hour) It sounds like the cars were in the process of being repaired at Forest Pk and for whatever reason the train got away from the mechanic. It sounds like some of it's safety mechanisms were cut out, which would make the train more vulnerable to becoming a runaway and it did exactly that. What amazes me is the train didn't derail all the way from the shop to 1/2 from the terminal.

Since the NTSB was on the scene, I suppose we'll get something like in the Blue Line subway derailment/fire, in which some pretty incompetent employees eventually get the finger.

However, it is interesting that both you and sw surmise that there was some mechanic that started the events into motion, as the news didn't mention anyone being associated with the train; just that it was on hold and eventually was supposed to go to the Skokie Shops. I would think that someone would have told Kelly whether a mechanic was on the train at some point, but the NTSB will find out eventually.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

I can't believe two of them were 1987 models (Younger 2600s) but looks like R.I.P. to #3177. I'm glad people were okay.

Just noticed the higher car numbers too. What a shame. True, it's a good thing everyone made it out though.

[mkohut]

Late WGN TV news had Brian Steele, also Claypool was standing behind the NTSB investigator, but had nothing to say for the tube.

Emanuel might have Claypool on a lease and told him not to talk..

[wordguy]

Which one was the runaway and which was the revenue train? The more heavily damaged 3177-3178 train or the less damaged 3171-3172?

Judging by the Sun-Times photo provided by Kevin toward the beginning of this thread, it looks as if 3177, the more heavily-damaged railcar, was the lead car of the runaway train --- assuming that the report of a runaway train was accurate. The Blue Lines tracks leave the median just west of Laramie, shifting to a right-of-way south of the expressway. The Harlem station is in that right-of-way. (Eastbound expressway traffic can be seen in the foreground).

So 3177 appears to have been heading east on the westbound track. Question: Are the safety systems, such as block signals, designed to work with wrong-way trains?

[juelzkellz]

I was thinking about this. It makes sense for the CTA to retire all of the cars involved in this incident and scrap for whatever parts can be salvaged after the NTSB is done with them. My reasoning is as follows, these cars are about to be retired relatively soon, so it doesn't make sense to spend money on these cars. It's going to cost money to repair them and get back into running order. Keep in mind these cars were involved in a collision, so they're not in the most optimal condition as far are the frames and other structural elements are concerned. So I think it's best to cut losses and move on. Besides, more and more of the 5000 series cars are arriving every day, so it's not really a huge loss. They just need to either borrow some cars from another route and/or bring back a few of the 2200's to cover until they can replace the missing stock. There is precedent for what I just described in the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R42_(New_York_City_Subway_car)

[MetroShadow]

I was thinking about this. It makes sense for the CTA to retire all of the cars involved in this incident and scrap for whatever parts can be salvaged after the NTSB is done with them. My reasoning is as follows, these cars are about to be retired relatively soon, so it doesn't make sense to spend money on these cars. It's going to cost money to repair them and get back into running order. Keep in mind these cars were involved in a collision, so they're not in the most optimal condition as far are the frames and other structural elements are concerned. So I think it's best to cut losses and move on. Besides, more and more of the 5000 series cars are arriving every day, so it's not really a huge loss. They just need to either borrow some cars from another route and/or bring back a few of the 2200's to cover until they can replace the missing stock. There is precedent for what I just described in the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R42_(New_York_City_Subway_car)

Even without spares, there are still enough 2600's on that route to be covered. It's not as if we're doing a swap of cars to do any SMS work, and especially since I'm sure once the 5000's go in, whatever 2600's would be pulled back into the Blue Line.

[Busjack]

I was thinking about this. It makes sense for the CTA to retire all of the cars involved in this incident and scrap for whatever parts can be salvaged after the NTSB is done with them. My reasoning is as follows, these cars are about to be retired relatively soon, so it doesn't make sense to spend money on these cars. It's going to cost money to repair them and get back into running order. Keep in mind these cars were involved in a collision, so they're not in the most optimal condition as far are the frames and other structural elements are concerned. So I think it's best to cut losses and move on. Besides, more and more of the 5000 series cars are arriving every day, so it's not really a huge loss. They just need to either borrow some cars from another route and/or bring back a few of the 2200's to cover until they can replace the missing stock. There is precedent for what I just described in the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R42_(New_York_City_Subway_car)

CTA has wrecked plenty of cars, so we don't need a wikipedia (which is not a source) reference to somewhere else. Look at the car rosters at chicago-l.org if you need a reference.

[Busjack]

....

So 3177 appears to have been heading east on the westbound track. Question: Are the safety systems, such as block signals, designed to work with wrong-way trains?

As far as signals, it has been noted many times that there is a cab signal system, and the fixed infrastructure of that system (i.e. the relay houses and what sends the radio signal to the track) is new (within the past couple of years), and all systems installed since 1984 are bidirectional.

Interockings have "red over red, stop and stay" signals, and as Kelly pointed out, track trips.

The NTSB investigator said they will be looking at the signals, and if, for instance, someone stuck a key in the controller, that should have been the obvious first thing to check. I'm sure the next thing would be whether the cab signal system would stop anything if the controller had not been activated.

Update: See today's Tribune article in which Hilkevitch says "The probe stems from the fact that numerous redundancies are designed to prevent any single break in the safety chain from leading to an accident" and then outlines a number of them.

[Busjack]

Emanuel might have Claypool on a lease and told him not to talk..

In a bit of irony, the Sun-Times said where the 3 (including Peterson) were.

[jajuan]

CTA has wrecked plenty of cars, so we don't need a wikipedia (which is not a source in Busjack's opinion) reference to somewhere else. Look at the car rosters at chicago-l.org if you need a reference.

As said, CTA has enough cars to cover the wrecked pair. No need to resurrect the 2200s just for this pair.

[sw4400]

I was thinking about this. It makes sense for the CTA to retire all of the cars involved in this incident and scrap for whatever parts can be salvaged after the NTSB is done with them. My reasoning is as follows, these cars are about to be retired relatively soon, so it doesn't make sense to spend money on these cars. It's going to cost money to repair them and get back into running order. Keep in mind these cars were involved in a collision, so they're not in the most optimal condition as far are the frames and other structural elements are concerned. So I think it's best to cut losses and move on. Besides, more and more of the 5000 series cars are arriving every day, so it's not really a huge loss. They just need to either borrow some cars from another route and/or bring back a few of the 2200's to cover until they can replace the missing stock. There is precedent for what I just described in the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R42_(New_York_City_Subway_car)

No, not necessary in this instance for a full retirement of four cars. The CTA has options...

• Retire 3177-3178, the heavily damaged pair and repair 3171-3172, which is barely damaged. A little time at Skokie Shops and this pair is good to go
• Retire 3177 and 3171 and mate 3172 to 3178, creating an unusual even numbered pair. Other options include 2701 which is reported to be available for service, just lacking a even numbered mate.

[Busjack]

No, not necessary in this instance for a full retirement of four cars. The CTA has options...

• Retire 3177-3178, the heavily damaged pair and repair 3171-3172, which is barely damaged. A little time at Skokie Shops and this pair is good to go
• Retire 3177 and 3171 and mate 3172 to 3178, creating an unusual even numbered pair. Other options include 2701 which is reported to be available for service, just lacking a even numbered mate.

It depends on how much structural damage is involved. In the case of the westbound train, it appears that maybe all that was affected was the composite front, while obviously the steel in the front of 3177 is bashed in.

Personally, I'm surprised that the trains didn't just bang on the anticlimbers (the ridged protrusion under the door), but somehow the tops of the fronts of each car got involved. But maybe that's why the bottom front of 3177 is collapsed.

Of course, what happens to the 4 cars of the ghost train probably also depends on whatever malfunction caused the accident. Obviously, none of those 4 cars is going back into service until the NTSB is done, and maybe not even the 8 cars of the westbound train.

[sw4400]

So the train with 3171 leading was the in-service train and the train with 3177 was the "ghost" train?

[BusHunter]

From what I saw of the wreck 3177 has frame damage so that's definitely gone. 3171 probably is too. It will probably take some time to mate 3172 and 3178 together. By then they should be close to retirement anyway so they probably won't be back.

Thinking in terms of the accident itself, I think the question of the hour is how did the switches get lined up for the train to leave the yard. An operator at forest pk today taking a train to the yard had to select a switchpoint in order to do that. So somehow that train got lined up to leave the yard.

[Busjack]

...

Thinking in terms of the accident itself, I think the question of the hour is how did the switches get lined up for the train to leave the yard. An operator at forest pk today taking a train to the yard had to select a switchpoint in order to do that. So somehow that train got lined up to leave the yard.

That's a good question, and undoubtedly the relevant one.

As far as whether switches at the interlockings were lined up, they were undoubtedly lined up on the inbound track for the inbound train to come in, so the cars continuing toward Harlem on the mainline probably was not a malfunction. But the real question is how did the train get out of the yard, given your observation that the switch would have had to connect the yard track with the mainline, and a statement in one of the articles that the control center would have had to give the authorization to proceed out of the yard.

[BusHunter]

Yes, it is a good question. Any inbound train theoretically could not enter the same track as the runaway without the runaway hitting it in the yard. Another interesting story I heard about the train is that it slowly was gaining momentum. An interesting question would be could the train have picked up enough speed to be a real threat.Also whether a train has the capability without a track brake applied to run away? If you take the brake off an automobile it will move on it's own. But can a train do that also without a brake applied? This would explain why it could climb hills.