Pulse (Milwaukee Avenue Route)

[artthouwill]

On 8/21/2019 at 4:36 PM, strictures said:

Road diets in Chicago never work as advertised.   Chicago's traffic engineers are totally incompetent.  Maybe 15-20 years ago, the Trib had a long article & interview with a Chicago traffic engineer.  The following is an exact quote from that article that I've never forgotten: "We don't believe in left turns, we want traffic to go straight"!  As an example of that, numerous intersections in the city still don't have left turn arrows, despite the fact that there are left turn lanes.  One of the worst of these intersections is Logan & Elston.  Most WB cars on Logan want to turn left onto Elston for all the shopping there, but must wait out several red lights, due to the lack of a left turn arrow!

Several years ago, Skokie planned a road diet for Oakton, from Skokie Blvd., west to past the library.  Being far more intelligent than Chicago's numbskulls, they tested it out first with cones & jersey blocks.  They cancelled it within two weeks!

While the E-W streets on the north side are ALL narrow and congested like crazy, one benefit is the substantial increase in ridership on the north side Red , Blue, and Brown Lines.  Those branches have the top three rail ridership numbers.

It seems to me that the current 1/2 mile intervals for the in city Pace routes work well enough.  What is the stop interval for Pulse Milwaukee and what will be the intervals for Pulse on Dempster, 95th, and Halsted?  In regards to Halsted,  whatever advantages skip stop services bring get offset by stop signs at some side streets.   It seems like Chicago is more interested in slowing traffic instead of flowing traffic. 

 

[BusHunter]

Kind of cool I was looking on the Pace website and the pulse buses will have a purple pulse destination sign. Didnt know those displays were capable of multi colors. I guess they have no route number. https://pulse.pacebus.com/images/Milwaukee/Pulse-Launch-Newsletter7.12.19.pdf

[BusHunter]

Was checking out Pulse today. The buses are cool all the destination signs display color Pulse signs. Was looking at the shelters they look nice each has there own theme on the windows shelters are heated. Each stop displays destination times for the next bus. At golf mill that can really come in handy. I like what they've done so far. Just doesnt seem to be too   many 270's anymore. 

[Pace831]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Kind of weird if you read the Pulse page on the pace website they talk about zero emissions buses for Pulse. With what cngs? 

Can you provide a link to where it says that?

[west towns]

cng or electric?  wheeling is supposed to be CNG so milwaukee and dempster will be CNG.  Halsted should be CNG from south.  Maybe 95th will be electric from SW as they interface with CTA stations which are going electric.

[BusHunter]

6 hours ago, Pace831 said:

Can you provide a link to where it says that?

I looked for it cant seem to find it. When I was reading it I was like really!!! Pulse does seem to be a really big bus network. They do want to expand Milwaukee first to highway 68 which I guess is dundee rd. Then as far north as highway 120 in lake county. Might as well go to great america/gurnee mills. Seems dumb to see them in the distance and not go there. Plus you could connect to a host of Waukegan service. 

[Pace831]

5 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Then as far north as highway 120 in lake county. Might as well go to great america/gurnee mills. Seems dumb to see them in the distance and not go there. Plus you could connect to a host of Waukegan service. 

So far they have only identified general corridors, not specific termini. There’s no reason to believe the routes wouldn’t go there. As those are listed as long-range plans, we probably won’t find out for a few decades, if ever.

[jajuan]

On 7/30/2019 at 9:43 AM, trainman8119 said:

As far as I am concerned, it is a terrible money wasting idea. Pace has been on this band wagon for 20+ years.

You watch, just like the CTA x routes, these buses will be empty or close to it. Once again, the bread and butter

riders get the shaft. This is one type of reason I left Pace many many years ago now...and the new ED fits the mold

so well ☹️ 

 

Rocky Donohue was so against taking care of the little guy or the grandma who needed to go shopping

or something. He was more into smoozing politicians. I see that nothing has really changed.

I really disliked it when he became my supervisor.

 

So speeding up service for your passengers you have left is a bad idea?  Doesn't sound very smart for transit agencies trying to survive the challenges of increased auto traffic making bus traffic slower and therefore discretionary passengers go elsewhere. And that's before even getting into the challenges of rideshare services eating into that along what used to be attractive corridors for transit (i.e CTA's recent attempt to reintroduce #11 bus service south of the Western Brown Line being a dismal failure). The main issue it seems, is that transit agencies have to monitor these services when introduced and make tweaks as needed based on ridership patterns. And let's be completely honest here. CTA's X express routes weren't cut for low ridership reasons across the board. The ridership was actually there for many of them actually with the X20 being the one real low performer that stood out. And that was because CTA made the dumb decision to make the route do local stops west of Central Park along the portion that operated on Madison. It wasn't much of an express at that point since it already had local stop only zone in the downtown portion. But back to my point, CTA's X routes got cut because CTA was strapped for cash and was trying to go for a service cut option that wouldn't be a hard hit from the passenger point of view. That would be seen by many who follow transit in the media, along with us transit advocates and enthusiasts, as part of the contributing factors into why CTA bus service became slower and lost customers because of it. 

On 8/15/2019 at 8:15 PM, trainman8119 said:

politics

Granted in that it could be argued that former Mayor Emanuel may have been trying to lure in southside votes had he decided to go for a third term, but that's still too easy a dismissal without attempting to look at all the facts since. As pointed out, the X9 and X49 were not hurting for passengers when they got cut in 2010, and they are not hurting for passengers now, three months shy of completing four years after being resurrected. I happen to use both routes for work commute options, and in this almost four years I've observed how the numbers of riders opting for the express over the local continually increase especially when they discover and realize that the express stops at their intersecting rail and bus routes to which they transfer. In regards to the relation between the Milwaukee Pulse Line and local 270, wasn't the local 270 bus service north of Golf Mill already limited due to the fact that the 272 extended further south to start at Golf Mill at its southernmost terminus? It seems the larger reduction effect to local service is that between Golf Mill and Jefferson Park. 

[west towns]

three new stations are open in Chicago NB Devon  SB  and NB Austin.  when did this happen?

[Mr.NewFlyer1051]

44 minutes ago, west towns said:

three new stations are open in Chicago NB Devon  SB  and NB Austin.  when did this happen?

what about SB devon? and are both SB/NB austin open?

[Smolensk]

6 hours ago, Mr.NewFlyer1051 said:

what about SB devon? and are both SB/NB austin open?

All traces of the SB shelter that they started to build at Milwaukee/Haft have been removed and the area has been smoothed over and returned to more or less its previous conditions except for a curved sidewalk and the old shelter and bus stop have been removed.  There is still a temporary bus stop on the NW corner of Milwaukee and Devon.

 

The northbound stop at Milwaukee/Highland is operational.

 

Both Austin stops are functional and the old bus stop signs and shelters have been removed.

[NewFlyerMCI]

48 minutes ago, Smolensk said:

All traces of the SB shelter that they started to build at Milwaukee/Haft have been removed and the area has been smoothed over and returned to more or less its previous conditions except for a curved sidewalk and the old shelter and bus stop have been removed.  There is still a temporary bus stop on the NW corner of Milwaukee and Devon.

 

The northbound stop at Milwaukee/Highland is operational.

 

Both Austin stops are functional and the old bus stop signs and shelters have been removed.

I never thought I'd be one to call a transit a boondoggle, but especially having rode it now, it feels like one to me. TSP still isn't operational based on what I saw and "stops" (read: glorified shelters) weren't even all the way complete before launch. At least there are charges (and wifi, I think, can't remember) but that's offset by that horrible purple lighting). I hope Pulse implementation on other corridors (especially Halsted) go more smoothly and have more BRT features.

[Smolensk]

13 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I never thought I'd be one to call a transit a boondoggle, but especially having rode it now, it feels like one to me. TSP still isn't operational based on what I saw and "stops" (read: glorified shelters) weren't even all the way complete before launch. At least there are charges (and wifi, I think, can't remember) but that's offset by that horrible purple lighting). I hope Pulse implementation on other corridors (especially Halsted) go more smoothly and have more BRT features.

Don't forget the obelisks at the "stops."  That's what makes them "stations."

Although it isn't publicized almost all Pace buses have free wifi.

This whole project is proof that Pace hates its riders.  At the open houses they assured us that Pulse would be an "addition" to the current service, so who could object?  Then at the final hearing they said "oh by the way, we're slashing the service on 270."  So now people either have to walk a mile or wait an hour for a bus.

 

Yes, picking up and discharging passengers is an obstacle to running an efficient bus service.  According to the schedule, the run time between Devon and JP is one to two whole minutes faster on Pulse than 270.  I'm sure that people would gladly walk even two miles or wait two hours to save this kind of time.

 

Late the other evening I was waiting at Jeff Park and saw a Pulse bus pull up and discharge exactly two passengers.  I'm sure it would have killed Pace's efficiency goals to have picked those two people up at somewhere other than an obelisk.  But if those two people have no option other than taking a bus, they'll walk a mile for Pace's convenience and learn to  like it.

[NewFlyerMCI]

4 hours ago, Smolensk said:

Don't forget the obelisks at the "stops."  That's what makes them "stations."

Although it isn't publicized almost all Pace buses have free wifi.

This whole project is proof that Pace hates its riders.  At the open houses they assured us that Pulse would be an "addition" to the current service, so who could object?  Then at the final hearing they said "oh by the way, we're slashing the service on 270."  So now people either have to walk a mile or wait an hour for a bus.

 

Yes, picking up and discharging passengers is an obstacle to running an efficient bus service.  According to the schedule, the run time between Devon and JP is one to two whole minutes faster on Pulse than 270.  I'm sure that people would gladly walk even two miles or wait two hours to save this kind of time.

 

Late the other evening I was waiting at Jeff Park and saw a Pulse bus pull up and discharge exactly two passengers.  I'm sure it would have killed Pace's efficiency goals to have picked those two people up at somewhere other than an obelisk.  But if those two people have no option other than taking a bus, they'll walk a mile for Pace's convenience and learn to  like it.

I can already see it now..

"The Pace South Halsted Pulse project will involve faster times for passengers going from 95th to Harvey!" Then proceeds to convert all non Chicago Heights trips into Pulse service with express "stations" for existing stops and have all local service covered by the every 30/45/60 min Chicago Heights trips. And that whole thing would only be mitigated by the 8A (and 108 on during peak).

[Pace831]

12 hours ago, Smolensk said:

Don't forget the obelisks at the "stops."  That's what makes them "stations."

Although it isn't publicized almost all Pace buses have free wifi.

This whole project is proof that Pace hates its riders.  At the open houses they assured us that Pulse would be an "addition" to the current service, so who could object?  Then at the final hearing they said "oh by the way, we're slashing the service on 270."  So now people either have to walk a mile or wait an hour for a bus.

 

Yes, picking up and discharging passengers is an obstacle to running an efficient bus service.  According to the schedule, the run time between Devon and JP is one to two whole minutes faster on Pulse than 270.  I'm sure that people would gladly walk even two miles or wait two hours to save this kind of time.

 

Late the other evening I was waiting at Jeff Park and saw a Pulse bus pull up and discharge exactly two passengers.  I'm sure it would have killed Pace's efficiency goals to have picked those two people up at somewhere other than an obelisk.  But if those two people have no option other than taking a bus, they'll walk a mile for Pace's convenience and learn to  like it.

The exhibit from the first meeting in April clearly states that 270 service would be reduced. That fact was repeatedly stated throughout the project. Don’t blame Pace because you missed it or forgot about it. There were not many comments received at the hearings about having to walk farther. That particular issue seems to come up on this forum more than anywhere else.

It is still too early to declare Pulse a failure. The implementation may not have been perfect, but that is not unexpected for an entirely new type of service. The example of two people on the bus “late in the evening” isn’t representative, and there is still time for ridership to grow. What really matters is how Pace responds to current criticism and adds future Pulse lines. Give them some time to gather ridership data and make adjustments if deemed necessary. Contrary to your claim that “Pace hates its riders”, they have made changes in response to passenger feedback many times.

[Smolensk]

3 hours ago, Pace831 said:

The exhibit from the first meeting in April clearly states that 270 service would be reduced. That fact was repeatedly stated throughout the project. Don’t blame Pace because you missed it or forgot about it. There were not many comments received at the hearings about having to walk farther. That particular issue seems to come up on this forum more than anywhere else.

It is still too early to declare Pulse a failure. The implementation may not have been perfect, but that is not unexpected for an entirely new type of service. The example of two people on the bus “late in the evening” isn’t representative, and there is still time for ridership to grow. What really matters is how Pace responds to current criticism and adds future Pulse lines. Give them some time to gather ridership data and make adjustments if deemed necessary. Contrary to your claim that “Pace hates its riders”, they have made changes in response to passenger feedback many times.

Your exhibit says "Reduced: Every 30 minutes on weekdays".   That's not exactly what happened, is it?

I haven't met a single person who is saying "Great!  I can now walk an extra mile to get on the bus.  I'm going to stop driving and start riding the bus." 

I'm sure Pace doesn't consider it a failure and is very proud of its shiny silver obelisks. Pace spokeswoman Maggie Daly Skogsbakken told Nadig Newspapers “But in time, as they use the service, they get used to it and learn that it is not as bad as they once thought,"  So basically Pace's attitude is to let passengers get used to the bad service.  After all, if they are desperate enough to ride the bus, what choice do they have?  It's just unfortunate they are spending more taxpayer money to provide worse service.

The two people on the bus isn't representative of service all day, just late in the evening.  Would it kill Pace to make local stops in the cold and the dark when hardly anyone rides the bus?  Or is it too much of a thrill to have the power to make people walk that extra mile for them?

 

 

[Pace831]

8 minutes ago, Smolensk said:

Your exhibit says "Reduced: Every 30 minutes on weekdays".   That's not exactly what happened, is it?

Your claim was that you had no idea there would be ANY cuts to 270.

10 minutes ago, Smolensk said:

I'm sure Pace doesn't consider it a failure and is very proud of its shiny silver obelisks. Pace spokeswoman Maggie Daly Skogsbakken told Nadig Newspapers “But in time, as they use the service, they get used to it and learn that it is not as bad as they once thought,"  So basically Pace's attitude is to let passengers get used to the bad service.  After all, if they are desperate enough to ride the bus, what choice do they have?  It's just unfortunate they are spending more taxpayer money to provide worse service.

The two people on the bus isn't representative of service all day, just late in the evening.  Would it kill Pace to make local stops in the cold and the dark when hardly anyone rides the bus?  Or is it too much of a thrill to have the power to make people walk that extra mile for them?

As I said, give Pace time to respond and adjust. Once ridership patterns settle down, they'll be able to make an informed decision. That time probably isn't far away. Historically, Pace has not continued to run empty buses, and has added service if they get too crowded.

This brings up the point made in another thread about the pitfalls of viewing transit as welfare for "those desperate enough to ride the bus". Even if Milwaukee Pulse fails, I give Pace credit for trying to improve service. There's value in knowing what doesn't work to help guide future projects.

[NewFlyerMCI]

https://www.masstransitmag.com/technology/miscellaneous/press-release/21123885/iteris-iteris-to-provide-transit-signal-priority-system-for-pace-suburban-bus

[MetroShadow]

On 1/12/2020 at 11:38 PM, Smolensk said:

Your exhibit says "Reduced: Every 30 minutes on weekdays".   That's not exactly what happened, is it?

I haven't met a single person who is saying "Great!  I can now walk an extra mile to get on the bus.  I'm going to stop driving and start riding the bus." 

I'm sure Pace doesn't consider it a failure and is very proud of its shiny silver obelisks. Pace spokeswoman Maggie Daly Skogsbakken told Nadig Newspapers “But in time, as they use the service, they get used to it and learn that it is not as bad as they once thought,"  So basically Pace's attitude is to let passengers get used to the bad service.  After all, if they are desperate enough to ride the bus, what choice do they have?  It's just unfortunate they are spending more taxpayer money to provide worse service.

The two people on the bus isn't representative of service all day, just late in the evening.  Would it kill Pace to make local stops in the cold and the dark when hardly anyone rides the bus?  Or is it too much of a thrill to have the power to make people walk that extra mile for them?

 

 

It takes two full years to be able to generate the needed ridership (or establish the benchmarks). If we had access to the numbers, we can do YTD, but even at this point, your thesis is based on five-ish months of service. Not a good measurement of comparison, and we have a ways to go.

[jajuan]

On 1/13/2020 at 2:25 AM, Pace831 said:

Your claim was that you had no idea there would be ANY cuts to 270.

As I said, give Pace time to respond and adjust. Once ridership patterns settle down, they'll be able to make an informed decision. That time probably isn't far away. Historically, Pace has not continued to run empty buses, and has added service if they get too crowded.

This brings up the point made in another thread about the pitfalls of viewing transit as welfare for "those desperate enough to ride the bus". Even if Milwaukee Pulse fails, I give Pace credit for trying to improve service. There's value in knowing what doesn't work to help guide future projects.

 

On 2/13/2020 at 9:15 PM, MetroShadow said:

It takes two full years to be able to generate the needed ridership (or establish the benchmarks). If we had access to the numbers, we can do YTD, but even at this point, your thesis is based on five-ish months of service. Not a good measurement of comparison, and we have a ways to go.

There also is the factor that Pace ridership numbers took a big nosedive like those of other transit agencies across the country due to the pandemic. Be it local stay at home orders, layoffs from work, or extended directives to work from home, ridership isn't where it normally would be if the pandemic wasn't still ongoing. And I'm observing their push to make quick conclusions without taking the effects of the pandemic into account.

[Smolensk]

4 hours ago, jajuan said:

 

There also is the factor that Pace ridership numbers took a big nosedive like those of other transit agencies across the country due to the pandemic. Be it local stay at home orders, layoffs from work, or extended directives to work from home, ridership isn't where it normally would be if the pandemic wasn't still ongoing. And I'm observing their push to make quick conclusions without taking the effects of the pandemic into account.

So right now, there are nearly-empty buses running on Milwaukee Avenue pausing at the Pulse obelisks for several minutes because they are running ahead of schedule.

 

Meantime, it's winter time and the few people who have no choice but to take the bus have to walk a mile through snow and sub-freezing temperatures in the dark to get to or from a bus stop and watch the empty buses zoom by them on the way.   Would it kill Pace to suspend the express service until things return to normal?  Is this some kind of ego thing for somebody that they can't admit that the Pulse experiment is a disservice to their customers?

 

Having to make two or three more stops during a run to pick up or drop off passengers near their homes or work would not make any difference to their run time, which seems to be Pace's primary concern.  If,heaven forbid, that caused more people to actually start riding the bus and slow them down, they could resume the express service and get rid of them.

 

[NewFlyerMCI]

19 hours ago, jajuan said:

 

There also is the factor that Pace ridership numbers took a big nosedive like those of other transit agencies across the country due to the pandemic. Be it local stay at home orders, layoffs from work, or extended directives to work from home, ridership isn't where it normally would be if the pandemic wasn't still ongoing. And I'm observing their push to make quick conclusions without taking the effects of the pandemic into account.

 

14 hours ago, Smolensk said:

So right now, there are nearly-empty buses running on Milwaukee Avenue pausing at the Pulse obelisks for several minutes because they are running ahead of schedule.

 

Meantime, it's winter time and the few people who have no choice but to take the bus have to walk a mile through snow and sub-freezing temperatures in the dark to get to or from a bus stop and watch the empty buses zoom by them on the way.   Would it kill Pace to suspend the express service until things return to normal?  Is this some kind of ego thing for somebody that they can't admit that the Pulse experiment is a disservice to their customers?

 

Having to make two or three more stops during a run to pick up or drop off passengers near their homes or work would not make any difference to their run time, which seems to be Pace's primary concern.  If,heaven forbid, that caused more people to actually start riding the bus and slow them down, they could resume the express service and get rid of them.

 

I'll just say that Pulse's implementation on Milwaukee was bungled. Like @MetroShadow said, it'll be years before we have an accurate read on what ridership looks like. My hope is that the future Pulse corridors will actually have BRT service and not just a branded express bus. I'd agree with a suspension of service, but is there enough riders on the Milwaukee corridor during the pandemic to justify that? If the Pulse buses are running empty, I can't imagine the 270 buses have that many more people on them (although you could use that argument as justification for suspending Pulse Milwaukee).

[Smolensk]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

 

I'll just say that Pulse's implementation on Milwaukee was bungled. Like @MetroShadow said, it'll be years before we have an accurate read on what ridership looks like. My hope is that the future Pulse corridors will actually have BRT service and not just a branded express bus. I'd agree with a suspension of service, but is there enough riders on the Milwaukee corridor during the pandemic to justify that? If the Pulse buses are running empty, I can't imagine the 270 buses have that many more people on them (although you could use that argument as justification for suspending Pulse Milwaukee).

The 270 buses are equally empty.  Nobody, except for a few seniors who can't walk an extra mile, is going to wait an hour for the next 270 bus to come, especially outside in the winter time.  Conversely, if the next bus to pull up to an obelisk is a 270 rather than a Pulse, nobody is going to wait for the Pulse, because there is no appreciable difference in the run time between the two routes, at least not during the pandemic.   I've never witnessed a Pulse bus pulling past a 270 bus on the street.

I am suggesting that they could save face by simply decreeing that, as an "emergency pandemic measure," Pulse buses will make all Route 270 stops along the route until further notice.  Again, given today's realities, this would not slow down service any, and would demonstrate that Pace actually gives a damn about the few remaining riders on the route.

[BusHunter]

What kills the #270 is the lack of it versus Pulse service. The service is way unbalanced and many dont see the option to walk to a pulse stop. Most probably just take a Niles free bus. Also Golf Mill right now is getting in dire shape. Losing Sears, losing Kohls, best buy, toysrus, most likely affects ridership as well. Probably the biggest draw, Wal mart doesnt really serve Pace all that well. They need to make golf rd the terminal and it would help with ridership. But the single thing that would help the most is simply adjusting the 270 frequency to that of Pulse. I never could figure out why transit agencies do that. Look at the #X49 compared to the #49. 

[MetroShadow]

Sounds like a suggestion to the planning office.