5000-series - Updates

[Busjack]

They are back at Skokie for software upgrades and then more out-of-service testing. No current timeline announced.

Thanks. It is hard to conceive, but probably true, that an L car is like a Callaway Corvette or a PC and needs a software upgrade. However, I guess that's true. Let's hope it doesn't have a blue screen of death, like my last computer. :lol:

[sw4400]

Windows

A fatal exception error has occured at 0028:C004D86F in VXD VFAT(01)0000B897. The current application will be terminated.

*Press any key to terminate the current application

*Press CTRL+ALT+DEL to restart your computer. You will lose any unsaved information in all applications

Press any key to continue _

"Attention passengers. This Red Line train is out of service due to equipment problems. We have cut power to the third rail and ask you to proceed along the walkway to the Grand Ave. Station. Thank you for riding the CTA!!!"

Red Line Service Disruption due to equipment problems near Grand. Thank you very much, Mr. Gates!!! :lol:

[greenstreet]

They are back at Skokie for software upgrades and then more out-of-service testing. No current timeline announced.

After about a week out of service, they are going back in service on Thursday. Currently scheduled back on the Red Line until April 2.

Edit (more info added 3/9/11-8:38am):

I don't have the complete schedule at hand, but I recall that the first trip from Howard is at 6:07am, and the first trip from 95th is at 7:30am. The last trip from Howard is 7:35pm. (this is for weekdays; weekend schedules are different)

[ryanbytes]

I rode 5003 today. The plastic around the left front cab window is starting to crack in the bottom right corner. I thought it was some etching bullcrap but I looked more closely and it was a little spiderweb pf cracks forming. So I'd say the 5000s are getting used wonderfully hard.

[geneking7320]

This afternoon I saw the a train of 5Ks northbound at the 35th Street Red Line station (about 3:00pm).

[MetroShadow]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/03/14/cta-moves-ahead-with-plan-for-new-l-cars/

Well, looks like they are moving forward with the purchase, even ignoring the complaints of the aisle seats.

[Busjack]

http://chicago.cbslo...for-new-l-cars/

Well, looks like they are moving forward with the purchase, even ignoring the complaints of the aisle seats.

According to that article "Rodriguez hopes to give the green light this spring to begin construction of the 700-car fleet."

So, apparently soon but not yet.

However, the article does seem pretty clear about the seats. So, so much for the CTA Tattler's petition, which I thought was not well taken.

[Mr.cta85]

I have a question concerning the 5000's "bowling alley" seating arrangements, why wouldnt the CTA consider or at least give it some real thought about changing the seating how the rest of the fleet is? If not that at least change them from seats to benches that would be better than what cta is sticking with. New York, Boston, and Atlanta have their own style when it comes to train seating arrangments and so does Chicago. I understand the reason for doing it but I still dont agree with it. Somethings just shouldnt change if it's not broke then dont mess with it.

[BusHunter]

I have a question concerning the 5000's "bowling alley" seating arrangements, why wouldnt the CTA consider or at least give it some real thought about changing the seating how the rest of the fleet is? If not that at least change them from seats to benches that would be better than what cta is sticking with. New York, Boston, and Atlanta have their own style when it comes to train seating arrangments and so does Chicago. I understand the reason for doing it but I still dont agree with it. Somethings just shouldnt change if it's not broke then dont mess with it.

The best seating arrangement actually is a hybrid of all different seating positions, like the #3200's or #5300's Flx's or TMC's. This way everyone gets to choose where to sit according to their seating preference. Standing passenger traffic seems to flow well if you place the widest part of the aisle between the front and back doors on buses and longitudinal seating around train doors. If you want to know why the longitudinal seating is not being changed my best guess would be it costs more money to change the arrangement and then study it. Better to change it now than 500 cars later. BTW, did you hear the CTA is looking into allowing more weight per passenger? There trying to change the federal guidelines to allow less capacity on the bus/less people. This I don't understand. While they may increase the size of the seats, it's not like there counting how many passengers are on a bus or train. When it is full it's done. Seems more of a PR move to me.

[Busjack]

BTW, did you hear the CTA is looking into allowing more weight per passenger? There trying to change the federal guidelines to allow less capacity on the bus/less people. This I don't understand. While they may increase the size of the seats, it's not like there counting how many passengers are on a bus or train. When it is full it's done. Seems more of a PR move to me.

You misstated what was stated in the CTA Tattler. The FTA release in the Federal Register says that it has to do with Altoona bus testing guidelines.

Of course, to the chagrin of the NABI employees on this forum, CTA proved that it didn't give a care about that subject to begin with.

[ial]

Great discussion and great pictures...just curious if anyone has a picture of the motorman's area and how it compares to the current CTA rail fleet? I noticed on some of the trains on the Brown Line that the "steering wheel" (not sure what it's called) looks more on the surface and has a different handle than say that of the ones on the Blue Line which look more like a drive-gear shifter in a passenger automobile...

[BusHunter]

You misstated what was stated in the CTA Tattler. The FTA release in the Federal Register says that it has to do with Altoona bus testing guidelines.

Of course, to the chagrin of the NABI employees on this forum, CTA proved that it didn't give a care about that subject to begin with.

I couldn't misstate something I didn't read. The FTA link basically seems to point the direction of the test is to study the structural integrity or strength of the bus. So in so many words, are they stating that overcrowded structural loads are a factor in premature wear on the frame of a bus? (cracks) This also has me wondering about something. You know how in a place of business a placard has to be displayed saying how many occupants can occupy a said space before it is unsafe. (fire code) How come they don't have that for buses/trains? I know it may be difficult to enforce, but wouldn't an overloaded bus become a fire issue as well as a structural issue? If so, why have a Altoona test in the first place. The load would already be deemed unsafe.

[Busjack]

You know how in a place of business a placard has to be displayed saying how many occupants can occupy a said space before it is unsafe. (fire code) How come they don't have that for buses/trains? I know it may be difficult to enforce, but wouldn't an overloaded bus become a fire issue as well as a structural issue? If so, why have a Altoona test in the first place. The load would already be deemed unsafe.

Now you are getting to something. Obviously, the one in buildings is posted because of the fire code.

When the NABIs came out, CTA said they had a rated capacity of 61 seats and a total of about 120 passengers. Likewise, there were service standards (for scheduling purposes) about what the average passenger load should be per type of vehicle. When they were doing the max capacity cars on the Brown Line, they said they couldn't take out all the seats, because then the passenger weight would be more than the car's GVWR if they packed as many passengers in as a no seat car would permit. New Flyer indicates that a DE60LF can hold about 20,000 lbs of passengers (63,000 GVWR - 43,000 curb weight).

There is also the federal sign that the bus does not operate if the passengers don't stand behind the line.

Of course, there is no way to enforce any of that, given the cutbacks and the like. Someone had posted about the police taking off the "nervous" driver; I'm sure people would howl if some authority got on a bus and decided to clear out 1/3 of the passengers.

[BusHunter]

Now you are getting to something. Obviously, the one in buildings is posted because of the fire code.

When the NABIs came out, CTA said they had a rated capacity of 61 seats and a total of about 120 passengers. Likewise, there were service standards (for scheduling purposes) about what the average passenger load should be per type of vehicle. When they were doing the max capacity cars on the Brown Line, they said they couldn't take out all the seats, because then the passenger weight would be more than the car's GVWR if they packed as many passengers in as a no seat car would permit. New Flyer indicates that a DE60LF can hold about 20,000 lbs of passengers (63,000 GVWR - 43,000 curb weight).

There is also the federal sign that the bus does not operate if the passengers don't stand behind the line.

Of course, there is no way to enforce any of that, given the cutbacks and the like. Someone had posted about the police taking off the "nervous" driver; I'm sure people would howl if some authority got on a bus and decided to clear out 1/3 of the passengers.

Actually if I'm not mistaken, I thought I might have seen an occupancy sign on the eldorados pace has. So there may be occupancy standards even though they are not posted on CTA equipment. (not just at the federal level) I'm also aware of the line behind the driver. Pace strictly enforces this, but CTA let's it go by the wayside. As far as enforcement goes, with passenger counters aboard buses I suppose they could flash a full sign on the destination like NY does. So it is possible. But that would inevitably play against anyone who proposes cuts in service because many po'ed passengers would end up sitting at the curb. Another thing I might wonder about. You know how the fire code requires two ways of exit from a structure/dwelling in case of a fire. I wonder how it is possible to have a bus like an eldorado with no rear exit door that is legal without conflicting with this. Unless they view the exit windows as alternative exits, but that could still be argued in terms of an accessible passenger not having two exits.

[sw4400]

5000's are going Purple again starting Monday...(Link)

[Mr.cta85]

5000's are going Purple again starting Monday...(Link)

Ok that answers my question about where the new cars will be going after the Red Line. But now my question is why?, Are they retesting the 5000's on all 8 lines again before they start making the order for the other 3 or 700 cars because if they are my next question is how many times or "Rounds" must they go through brfore cta gives the green light?

[sw4400]

Ok that answers my question about where the new cars will be going after the Red Line. But now my question is why?, Are they retesting the 5000's on all 8 lines again before they start making the order for the other 3 or 700 cars because if they are my next question is how many times or "Rounds" must they go through brfore cta gives the green light?

I'm going to guess another go round of the Rail Lines again.

[artthouwill]

5000's are going Purple again starting Monday...(Link)

Ok this makes no sense to me. It has been 18 months since these cars started being tested. CTA has said that the cars must test successfully through all four seasons (I think 18 months covers that). CTA has also said that testing must be done on all 8 rail lines. That was accomplished at the end of February. So will they now retest these cars on all 8 lines again? There has to be some reason CTA is stalling before giving the green light to proceed with the order. I also find it odd that the Purple Line was chosen for the next phase of testing. The Purple doesn't garner the crowding that the Blue or Brown Lines do, unless there is some relevancy to a rebuild of the North Side main.

[Busjack]

The only reasonable explanation is that they interrupted the Purple testing to do more important winter testing on the Red. There was also the bit about the software update--disclosed, but not said what it accomplished. Of course, I've quit trying to rationalize the actions of any transit agency in this area.

[sw4400]

There is talk of a Federal Gov't Shutdown this Saturday. With the 5000's still on order, will this have any effect on the CTA being able to purchase them?

[BusHunter]

Ok this makes no sense to me. It has been 18 months since these cars started being tested. CTA has said that the cars must test successfully through all four seasons (I think 18 months covers that). CTA has also said that testing must be done on all 8 rail lines. That was accomplished at the end of February. So will they now retest these cars on all 8 lines again? There has to be some reason CTA is stalling before giving the green light to proceed with the order. I also find it odd that the Purple Line was chosen for the next phase of testing. The Purple doesn't garner the crowding that the Blue or Brown Lines do, unless there is some relevancy to a rebuild of the North Side main.

Exactly what i thought when I heard about this. Now that winter's over they can't use that excuse. I would suspect, they might either be stalling or there is something with the #5000's that is either malfunctioning or they are unhappy with. April 19th is coming soon. That would mark a year of them being tested with passengers. We'll see if that day passes without some sort of announcement. Thinking that the #3200's test went one round, this is turning out to be the longest test of any railcar at CTA. BTW, as far as the Gov. shutdown, I would think that applies to anything being awarded in the present phase. (That's why they mention tax return checks will stopped being mailed.) This contract was awarded in the past. It shouldn't have any impact.

[sw4400]

Thinking that the #3200's test went one round, this is turning out to be the longest test of any railcar at CTA.

With the 3200's, they were D/C powered, as were the 2200's, 2400's, and 2600's currently in service. One test on the system, and these railcars were ready to go. The 5000's, on the other hand, are A/C powered and have regenerative braking, which is new technology to the CTA. They want to make sure these railcars hold up in typical Chicago weather during all seasons. This might take 1-2 seasons before the CTA is satisfied enough to green light the rest of the railcars.

BTW, as far as the Gov. shutdown, I would think that applies to anything being awarded in the present phase. (That's why they mention tax return checks will stopped being mailed.) This contract was awarded in the past. It shouldn't have any impact.

5001-5012 are built and paid for, but 5013-5206(Base Order and Option #1: 206 total with 5001-5012 added) aren't all built yet, I know some more are because I saw it in a link once, only I can't locate the link now. But it's not many, just 15-30 more. According to Chicago-L.org(Link), the Bonds were bid on in March 2010 and were backed by sales taxes and Federal Funds. Knowing how slooooooooooooowly the Gov't works, these Bonds probably aren't all finalized yet.

[BusHunter]

With the 3200's, they were D/C powered, as were the 2200's, 2400's, and 2600's currently in service. One test on the system, and these railcars were ready to go. The 5000's, on the other hand, are A/C powered and have regenerative braking, which is new technology to the CTA. They want to make sure these railcars hold up in typical Chicago weather during all seasons. This might take 1-2 seasons before the CTA is satisfied enough to green light the rest of the railcars.

Also it may be that the computer upgrade that the cars went through recently changed the cars enough that they need to relearn certain things. (like windows 7 is not XP) It could have impacted possible changes to former tests on lines. Hopefully they'll get things rolling soon!!

[Busjack]

According to Chicago-L.org(Link), the Bonds were bid on in March 2010 and were backed by sales taxes and Federal Funds. Knowing how slooooooooooooowly the Gov't works, these Bonds probably aren't all finalized yet.

Basically, all of this is irrelevant. Either CTA has the source to pay the bond service or it doesn't. The federal question is totally irrelevant to state sales tax revenue. With regard to any federal backing, either congress has passed the appropriation bill or it hasn't. The fact that some functionary at the FTA may have the day off on Monday isn't going to make any difference.

In any event, Bombardier is not the federal government, but apparently a French or Canadian company. They won't be shut down Monday.

[sw4400]

In any event, Bombardier is not the federal government, but apparently a French or Canadian company. They won't be shut down Monday.

I believe you missed the point of my post, Busjack. Bombardier is NOT the Fed. Gov't, I believe we all know that. But no money, no railcars, that's why I said if these bonds were not yet appropriated by both the Sales Taxes and Federal Funds, there might be a delay in ordering and/or receiving the 5000's.