5000-series - Updates

[Pink Jazz]

For some reason, the riders of the Blue Line here remind me of the riders of the (6) train in NYCTF.  Just as Blue Line riders here feel like they are entitled to have the newest cars, many riders of the (6) on NYCTF feel that they are entitled to have the R142/R142A (IRT NTTs) series cars instead of the R62A series cars and are trying to push the NYC MTA to send the R62As to the (2) and/or (5) lines, both of which need the NTTs due to frequent interlining at Flatbush Avenue (it would be an operational nightmare to manually change all the rollsigns if those lines were to get R62As). Most of the (6)'s R142As have been sent to the (7) and are being converted into R188s for CBTC operation, thus the (7) is sending its R62As to the (6).

Edited August 29, 2015 by Pink Jazz

[2200fan]

 I used to wonder what the "pop" was, now I know. I never noticed it on the newer trains, just the 6000's.

[chicagopcclcar]

 I used to wonder what the "pop" was, now I know. I never noticed it on the newer trains, just the 6000's.

One reason you heard more "pop" with 6000s, the Cineston control only had three points of power and any point bought the train to max power, it just took longer. Plus, there was no switching point.  So if the motorman wanted to limit speed say to 10 mph or 6 mph for yard speed, a one point of power would be applied and quickly go to coast...."pop" and flash underneath would happen. You would get "pops" maintaining slow curve speeds and matching of the speed of a train in front in the days before cab-signals with their beeping, LOL. CTA high-performance cars afterwards all have 4 points of power, including a switching point....2000s through 3200s.

A railroad trainmaster friend and myself took a trip and were aboard a London tube train and we began talking about the equipment, especially the age. I had heard the "popping" of the line switches, so I said these cars must be 70s. At the end of the line, the driver didn't know, but he pointed out that the year is stamped on the frame by the door...."1978" I won the bet! EDIT....Note the second "third rail", or is it a fourth rail?

Edited August 30, 2015 by chicagopcclcar
Added 2nd third rail note

[busfan2847]

.Note the second "third rail", or is it a fourth rail?

 

Yes it is the fourth rail. Current return on London Underground is not through the running rails, but through the fourth rail. The 630V dc is provided by holding the 3rd rail at 420V dc and the fourth rail at -210V dc. The chief advantage of the fourth-rail system is that, in tunnels with a metallic lining, the return traction current does not leak into the lining causing electrolytic corrosion there or in the neighboring utility mains.

[briman94]

 I used to wonder what the "pop" was, now I know. I never noticed it on the newer trains, just the 6000's.

I notice it on everything up through the 3200s. It's louder and more noticeable on the 2600s than the 3200s but it's definitely still present on them. I wonder if the newly rehabbed 3200s will continue to do that, or if they will change the way the motors are powered at all.

 

Yes it is the fourth rail. Current return on London Underground is not through the running rails, but through the fourth rail. The 630V dc is provided by holding the 3rd rail at 420V dc and the fourth rail at -210V dc. The chief advantage of the fourth-rail system is that, in tunnels with a metallic lining, the return traction current does not leak into the lining causing electrolytic corrosion there or in the neighboring utility mains.

There are some places on the CTA where there appears to be a fourth rail. Obviously the trains do not have any sort of shoes, but specifically near Harlem/Lake, there is a rail in between the two running rails that appears to have wire connecting it to something. Maybe it's legacy from previous systems, but I've always wondered what it's for.

Edited August 31, 2015 by briman94

[4CottageGrove95th]

There are some places on the CTA where there appears to be a fourth rail. Obviously the trains do not have any sort of shoes, but specifically near Harlem/Lake, there is a rail in between the two running rails that appears to have wire connecting it to something. Maybe it's legacy from previous systems, but I've always wondered what it's for.

That "fourth rail" that you mentioned appears to primarily be a guard rail to prevent derailed trucks on a train from deviating too far to the left or too far to the right. In other words since the right-of-way is elevated, the guard rail provides a measure of protection against a derailed car falling off the embankment. On the flip side, that same rail can prevent a derailed car from inadvertently entering into the path of  oncoming train movements on the adjacent track thus causing a "sideswipe" or head-on collision. Even though there are "bond" connections on it, generally it carries no power. 

[briman94]

That "fourth rail" that you mentioned appears to primarily be a guard rail to prevent derailed trucks on a train from deviating too far to the left or too far to the right. In other words since the right-of-way is elevated, the guard rail provides a measure of protection against a derailed car falling off the embankment. On the flip side, that same rail can prevent a derailed car from inadvertently entering into the path of  oncoming train movements on the adjacent track. Even though there are "bond" connections on it, generally it carries no power. 

I know the ones you're talking about, but what I'm talking about is different. It's a bit hard to see in this picture, but you can if you zoom in:

You can see a fourth rail between the two running rails. It looks too far away from either running rail to be a check rail, and it has wires coming from it that appear to go to the switch house by the interlocking.

[4CottageGrove95th]

I know the ones you're talking about, but what I'm talking about is different. It's a bit hard to see in this picture, but you can if you zoom in:

You can see a fourth rail between the two running rails. It looks too far away from either running rail to be a check rail, and it has wires coming from it that appear to go to the switch house by the interlocking.

Well, I do see the rail you're talking about, as well as the welded bond cables. I wouldn't think it would have anything to do with ATC. But you never know. Maybe "chicagopcclcar" might have to shed some light on this one.

[Busjack]

...

 

There are some places on the CTA where there appears to be a fourth rail. Obviously the trains do not have any sort of shoes, but specifically near Harlem/Lake, there is a rail in between the two running rails that appears to have wire connecting it to something. Maybe it's legacy from previous systems, but I've always wondered what it's for.

Someone had posted a picture of something like that near Jefferson Park a long time ago. It essentially was a piece of rail in the middle of the tracks, a signal box, and then another piece of rail, with a wire between the 2 pieces of rail bypassing the signal box. I don't believe anyone demonstrated what it was, other than it wasn't a power pickup in the center of the car, as there was a third rail depicted to the outside of the running rail.

[garmon757]

Just spotted #5391-92, #5547-48, and #5657-58 on the Purple Line.

[Busjack]

Someone had posted a picture of something like that near Jefferson Park a long time ago. It essentially was a piece of rail in the middle of the tracks, a signal box, and then another piece of rail, with a wire between the 2 pieces of rail bypassing the signal box. I don't believe anyone demonstrated what it was, other than it wasn't a power pickup in the center of the car, as there was a third rail depicted to the outside of the running rail.

Update: The discussion is in this thread, although the embedded picture is now only a working link.

[chicagopcclcar]

The photo I used show London's "tube", that their name for their subway. The station was "Kings Cross" a big and important transfer point. I noted the "fourth rail" which it used in powering  the trains. Here is a another photo with the "fourth rail" with switch work on surface track. 

In the United States we not not use that system.  The inside rails are there the prevent trains from coming off the track structure in the event of a derailment. Railroads usually use these "guard rails" on bridges, shorter tunnels.  Since our "Ls" originally were all bridgework, elevated tracks featured continuous guard timbers on both sides and on both inside of the running rails. When the elevated roads electrified, the third rail was suspended on wood "chairs" outside if the guard timber. In the second and third decade, the inside timbers were replaced with rails. Where the "L" tracks ran on fill, only a inside guard rail was installed.  The inside guard rail protected trains leaving the track on the outside.  If a derailment happened on the inside, it was planned the rails, the next track, etc, would contain the wreckage. Because the "L" is an electric railroad, all metal structures are wired together.  Those all guard rails are cabled and grounded. brimam94's picture is just guard rail that is grounded.

No guard rails on this section of surface track on the Yellow line. Median on the Red line with no guard rails.

A inside guard rail to prevent trains going off the property.  Brown line at Rockwell.

North side has inside guard rail on outside tracks, no guard rails on inside tracks.

Modern structure doesn't even use rail for guard rails, they use angle iron. 

What does this picture of the old Jackson Park station at 63rd St. and Stony Island have to do this this post?? The "train room" in the left building was over the track that led to further east. That track was the last piece with timber guards inside and outside. A keen eyesight could see it.  

  

[chicagopcclcar]

#5700 is expected to be moved from SKOKIE-SOUTH this PM.  If no supervision is available at Roosevelt elevated, the drag would go around the Loop.

EDIT......False alarm.....5700 will be included in the regular Thursday drag.  Sorry, its still at 63rd.

Edited September 2, 2015 by chicagopcclcar
Schedule change.

[chicagopcclcar]

If there are no more questions about guard rails.....Back to our regularly scheduled programs.....Wednesday's delivery, Sept. 02,  is #5704.  Its mate was delivered Tuesday.  Mated pair #5701-5702 were delivered Friday, Aug. 28, and Monday,  Aug. 31. #5699-5702 will be the next drag, probably Thursday.

 

Note that the trailer is in the south position on the siding.  This puts the railcar's cab in its proper location.  The Shuttlewagon and its idler flat goes on the north end. A front loader snatches the incline fixture out the way.  Then the tractor will hook up to the trailer and move it off the siding, then the Shuttlewagon can move #5704. Note the Tribune article said #5714 is not yet delivered by Bombardier to Skokie so don't marking up your calendars for the date of the last trip of #5714.

EDIT.....#5705 delivered on Thursday. No drag yet. Maybe Red line has too many cars, LOL.

Edited September 3, 2015 by chicagopcclcar
Added Thursday delivery

[chicagopcclcar]

Friday, Sept. 4, a slight out of order happened, #5706 came on Thursday which means a rarity....an odd number cab, #5705, faces north.  No delivery is expected on the holiday weekend.

 

[garmon757]

Welcome aboard #5695-96!

[Pink Jazz]

I actually wonder if the reason why CTA isn't running 5000s on the Orange Line is because CTA refuses to run a mix of incompatible equipment on the line.  If the Orange Line does get 5000s, it would be the only line that would run two different series of incompatible cars after the 2600s are removed from the Red Line.  Since the 7000-series are no longer required to be compatible with the 5000-series, perhaps CTA feels that it is better to wait until the 7000s so it can get a compatible and consistent fleet in the future without having to shift cars around.

[chicagopcclcar]

I mentioned before.....within the CTA, management is a consensus.  Month in and month out, things change.  There has been a leadership change with the rail section, mainly to get new ideas.  Plus the whole thing with the Yellow line. I know that many like to guess what might happen in the near future, not me. I don't want to guess about things...I don't like it...the guessing-game. When I'm sure, I stick to my guns.  Remember the debate we had over 63rd being chosen. We all know the 5000s are way past the number what we thought would satisfy the requirements.....but new 5000s getting assigned to the Red line.  I have no clue.   

[garmon757]

#5697-98 are in service.

[chicagopcclcar]

#5697-98 are in service.

Good find.  The next four, #5699-5700, #5701-5702 are still in SKOKIE-SOUTH ready to go.  Plus the next-next four, #5703-5704, #5705-5706, are coupled too. No more room on the Red line???

[garmon757]

Good find.  The next four, #5699-5700, #5701-5702 are still in SKOKIE-SOUTH ready to go.  Plus the next-next four, #5703-5704, #5705-5706, are coupled too. No more room on the Red line???

That concludes the first option because CTA bought 8 additional 5000s #5707-14.

[BusHunter]

That concludes the first option because CTA bought 8 additional 5000s #5707-14.

Those were compliments of Bombardier, due to the bombard delays. Wouldn't it be something if they didn't have longitudinal seating?

Edited September 7, 2015 by BusHunter

[BusHunter]

Good find.  The next four, #5699-5700, #5701-5702 are still in SKOKIE-SOUTH ready to go.  Plus the next-next four, #5703-5704, #5705-5706, are coupled too. No more room on the Red line???

Or nothing else to bring over.

[chgofan78]

They may just want to get rid of the last of the 2600-series off the Red Line before they bring the last of the cars over.  There are about 16 more 2600-series cars left on the line.   

[chicagopcclcar]

That concludes the first option because CTA bought 8 additional 5000s #5707-14.

I never thought about that, LOL.  One of the bacon wraps 2600s is loaded to be sent to Skokie Tuesday, after the holiday.  We'll see what comes back, won't we?