Random CTA

[Elkmn]

Speaking of the 57, it feels too short, is there a reason it doesn't go all the way to Montrose? Laramie is still a major street north of Grand and the 85 & 54 are both very busy routes. Is there just not enough demand? I'd be surprised if that was the case.

[artthouwill]

49 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

Speaking of the 57, it feels too short, is there a reason it doesn't go all the way to Montrose? Laramie is still a major street north of Grand and the 85 & 54 are both very busy routes. Is there just not enough demand? I'd be surprised if that was the case.

The main reason why the route exists the way it is  is to provide a connection to the Laramie Green Line station and also the Blue Line Cicero Station.   Ridership north of Grand probably not going to use either of those lines.  There are no major traffic generators north of Grand either.

If also may be a historical thing.  Perhaps at one time this was the routing of streetcar service  which remained when CTA converted to buses. 

[Shannoncvpi]

11 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I believe the answer is that it's not just the 57.  I believe the 57 interline with the 73.  If that's the case then you have to factor in both routes  when considering what happened.   Certainly the 57 doesn't need 9 byses, but 7 or 8 buses covering the 57 AND the 73 might be a bit too thin 

Yea both of them interline but the supervisor had him turn & go to the blue line not go to grand 

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, artthouwill said:

If also may be a historical thing.  Perhaps at one time this was the routing of streetcar service  which remained when CTA converted to buses. 

I no longer have Lind's book, but Chicago Transit and Railfan has it originally as a suburban streetcar route between 22nd and Lake, then  CRys took over the city portion and cut it to Harrison, converted to bus in 1937 and extended to North Ave., and extended to Grand (by CTA) in 1953. Apparently no impetus to extend it further.

[busfan2847]

On 3/18/2024 at 10:24 PM, artthouwill said:

If also may be a historical thing.  Perhaps at one time this was the routing of streetcar service  which remained when CTA converted to buses. 

The history of 57 Laramie is a bit more complicated! The original streetcar route south from Lake was split due to the Chicago City Limits established in 1899, and the section north from Lake to Grand was originally a short lived CMC bus route which was withdrawn as part of the CMC / CSL wars of the late 1920's. There has never been any service north of Grand on Laramie. At times the 57 has been reduced to Rush Hour only, the weekend service has been cut and the evening service cut. Since 2008 it has enjoyed the most service in 35 years.

Suburban Railroad opened the Laramie streetcar line on 9/19/1897 from Lake via Laramie to 25th. Roosevelt Rd. was established as the Chicago city limits in 1899. From 8/15/12 rerouted streetcars via Laramie-Roosevelt to Chicago/Austin, began streetcar shuttle from Roosevelt via Laramie to Lake, and on 12/21/12, segment north of Roosevelt went to Chicago Railway, while segment south of Roosevelt went to County Traction, later Chicago & West Towns Railways, now Pace 305 (now 316). Streetcar shuttle from Roosevelt via Laramie to Lake discontinued 1/14/13. Chicago Railway Laramie route began 2/8/13 from Lake via Laramie to Harrison, with track abandoned between Harrison and Roosevelt. One-man cars were introduced 4/1/21. From 12/20/37 Laramie streetcars replaced by 57 Laramie buses.

CMC began 37 Laramie bus route on 10/3/28 from Washington via Laramie-Bloomingdale-Leclaire-Grand-Laramie-Agatite-Milwaukee-Ainslie-Laramie to Laramie-Elston-Leamington-Berwyn loop. The service was discontinued 3/8/30 as a result of a court decision that CSL should operate all routes in northwest Chicago.

CSL began 57 Laramie bus route, replacing Laramie streetcars and extended N from Lake to North, on 12/20/37 from North-Latrobe-Wabansia-Laramie loop via Laramie to Congress-Leamington-Harrison-Laramie loop. From 12/1/42 service cut back to M-S rush, but service restored day and eve from 1/13/43. From 6/19/53 extended buses via Laramie-Grand to Latrobe terminal. From 5/29/58 rerouted buses via Laramie to Laramie-Harrison-Leamington-Congress loop. From 6/22/58 Extended buses via Laramie to Harrison-Lavergne-Flournoy-Laramie loop. Su service discontinued 10/15/61. From 9/13/71 extended buses via Laramie to Harrison-Cicero-Flournoy-Laramie loop. From 9/10/73 evening service discontinued. From 9/4/79 extended buses via Laramie to Laramie-Lexington-Cicero-Harrison loop. S service discontinued 9/18/81. From 11/10/84 resumed SSu daytime service. From 12/29/2008 began M-F early evening service.

Info from Linds Book, the Chicago Transit and Railfan site and Andre Kristopans' route histories available at the Illinois Railway Museum's CTA Historic Website ( http://irm-cta.org/route_descriptions.html )

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, busfan2847 said:

The original streetcar route south from Lake was split due to the Chicago City Limits established in 1899

Since we're getting into history, it dawned on me to look up when Austin was annexed by Chicago, and the Encyclopedia of Chicago says 1899, when, surprisingly, the rest of Cicero Twp. voted it out.

This came up on some transit forum when I asked how 16 Lake and 20 Madison were Thru Routes, since they didn't connect with other routes, and the answer was basically that west of Crawford/Pulaski, it was originally foreign territory, but CRys didn't acquire the trackage until 1910.

[Shannoncvpi]

You k ow whats is real messed up its only 3 buses running on the 28 8441 1071 & 8538 & its a huge gap in between the the 3 this is why I say Carter needs to be fired I had to run for the 28 at 47th cause the 28 said no arrival the 6 said 26 mins yea Carter can't get things under control he gotta go 

[Busjack]

59 minutes ago, Shannoncvpi said:

You k ow whats is real messed up its only 3 buses running on the 28 8441 1071 & 8538 & its a huge gap in between the the 3 this is why I say Carter needs to be fired I had to run for the 28 at 47th cause the 28 said no arrival the 6 said 26 mins yea Carter can't get things under control he gotta go 

Last I knew, Carter wasn't the dispatcher at 103rd, nor (unlike Thomas Jefferson) could have sufficient s-x with his slaves to replenish the inventory of workers.

Sort of different from the driver's and potential passenger's positions, don't you think, being in both?

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Shannoncvpi said:

You k ow whats is real messed up its only 3 buses running on the 28 8441 1071 & 8538 & its a huge gap in between the the 3 this is why I say Carter needs to be fired I had to run for the 28 at 47th cause the 28 said no arrival the 6 said 26 mins yea Carter can't get things under control he gotta go 

I guess today is a bad day.  Did you see my posts about the Blue Line in the CTA Rail Alerts thread?

There was an alert concerning the 6 and the J14 today, though I didn't read the actual alert.  Perhaps that had some bearing on what happened.   These things aren't Dorval Carter 's fault and his job isn't the operations manager.   He can't be faulted for driver shortages or equipment malfunctions.  The 8350s are coming as well as the 7000s.  If people keep not showing up for work, some company will figure out how to operate driverless buses and trains and we won't have to worry about you complaining about the big gaps in service that you have to wait for or your leader being pulled off your busy route to try to plug a big gap on another route.

[YoungBusLover]

3 hours ago, Shannoncvpi said:

You k ow whats is real messed up its only 3 buses running on the 28 8441 1071 & 8538 & its a huge gap in between the the 3 this is why I say Carter needs to be fired I had to run for the 28 at 47th cause the 28 said no arrival the 6 said 26 mins yea Carter can't get things under control he gotta go 

Looks like that 3 increased fairly quickly for the evening rush.

Those 3 buses went up by 2 about 45 minutes later, perhaps an equipment shortage happened or a temporary reroute that didn't get posted on the website. Regardless Dorval Carter isn't responsible for 10 - 53ing the street if something happens.

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, YoungBusLover said:

Looks like that 3 increased fairly quickly for the evening rush.

Too small for me to see, but there's always the official site. One thing I've occasionally noticed is 103rd buses with 13xx run numbers on 3, but everything now seems to be in 77th's range.

[Shannoncvpi]

6 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

Looks like that 3 increased fairly quickly for the evening rush.

Those 3 buses went up by 2 about 45 minutes later, perhaps an equipment shortage happened or a temporary reroute that didn't get posted on the website. Regardless Dorval Carter isn't responsible for 10 - 53ing the street if something happens.

No he's not but he's responsible for the scheduling in the first place tbh I agree with the public when they say they shouldn't always be having to wait 20+mins for a bus wveeytime I do the 54 now that's all I hear & now I just say I agree with you 

[Busjack]

38 minutes ago, Shannoncvpi said:

but he's responsible for the scheduling in the first place

Maybe ultimately, but there is a Scheduling & Service Planning department.

Also, while you took what I said in one way, you didn't describe whether the problem on 54 was caused by the interval in the published schedule, which would be the S&SP Dept's fault, mess ups by your dispatcher or service control, or drivers not existing or calling off. It's necessary to find the cause instead of just saying "cut off the head." In cases where I called out incompetents at the top, such as Carole Brown, Terry Peterson(CT Board Presidents),  Frank Kruesi, and Ron Huberman (CTA Presidents), it was for idiotic things they personally said or did. 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Shannoncvpi said:

No he's not but he's responsible for the scheduling in the first place tbh I agree with the public when they say they shouldn't always be having to wait 20+mins for a bus wveeytime I do the 54 now that's all I hear & now I just say I agree with you 

That's funny because I see the 54 run like clockwork  while waiting 30 plus minutes for the 54B.  Tge 54B usually has only two or three buses running the route when I take it.  It's the most direct route for me to get to Midway but I've been considering going downtown and catching the Orange Line out to Midway.  The 62H is no better.  

Again,  the main culprit is the driver shortage exacerbated by your co workers calling off work.   If your garage needs 200 drivers timo cover a shift but only 150 show up, that's 50 open runs not covered.  What happens if all three 54B drivers call off?  Does CTA not run the route?  Or should they pull buses from busier routes? It has been mentioned before that 103rd and 77th have the highest absentee rate while North Park and Forest Glen had the lowest.   Pace and CTA are begging for drivers and seemingly can't hire enough and the drivers that are employed do show up for work.  I've seen drivers avoid answering their phones if they think CTA is going to ask them to work overtime.   If the system is xeappy, it's because there are crappy people that work for the system.   They are the ones that make it hard for the passengers and the good employees. 

[Shannoncvpi]

9 hours ago, artthouwill said:

That's funny because I see the 54 run like clockwork  while waiting 30 plus minutes for the 54B.  Tge 54B usually has only two or three buses running the route when I take it.  It's the most direct route for me to get to Midway but I've been considering going downtown and catching the Orange Line out to Midway.  The 62H is no better.  

Again,  the main culprit is the driver shortage exacerbated by your co workers calling off work.   If your garage needs 200 drivers timo cover a shift but only 150 show up, that's 50 open runs not covered.  What happens if all three 54B drivers call off?  Does CTA not run the route?  Or should they pull buses from busier routes? It has been mentioned before that 103rd and 77th have the highest absentee rate while North Park and Forest Glen had the lowest.   Pace and CTA are begging for drivers and seemingly can't hire enough and the drivers that are employed do show up for work.  I've seen drivers avoid answering their phones if they think CTA is going to ask them to work overtime.   If the system is xeappy, it's because there are crappy people that work for the system.   They are the ones that make it hard for the passengers and the good employees. 

That's why I always say cta need to do better with their hiring a few people I know went on to other jobs cause cta would be taking too long to bring them on like people have bills now not a few months away 

[Shannoncvpi]

10 hours ago, Busjack said:

Maybe ultimately, but there is a Scheduling & Service Planning department.

Also, while you took what I said in one way, you didn't describe whether the problem on 54 was caused by the interval in the published schedule, which would be the S&SP Dept's fault, mess ups by your dispatcher or service control, or drivers not existing or calling off. It's necessary to find the cause instead of just saying "cut off the head." In cases where I called out incompetents at the top, such as Carole Brown, Terry Peterson(CT Board Presidents),  Frank Kruesi, and Ron Huberman (CTA Presidents), it was for idiotic things they personally said or did. 

It's just mind blowing how we drivers get the blame for things that are above us like I always tell people let 567 know it let them hear it chew their heads off

[artthouwill]

35 minutes ago, Shannoncvpi said:

It's just mind blowing how we drivers get the blame for things that are above us like I always tell people let 567 know it let them hear it chew their heads off

In reverse order,  showing up for work is not above you  

If CTA  doesn't do it thorough background checks,  CTA  would get sued for not vetting the drivers.  Do they have a criminal record?  Is he a sex offender?  Is he a convicted felon? People will sue CTA  left and right.   It's called doing due diligence  

[Shannoncvpi]

7 hours ago, artthouwill said:

In reverse order,  showing up for work is not above you  

If CTA  doesn't do it thorough background checks,  CTA  would get sued for not vetting the drivers.  Do they have a criminal record?  Is he a sex offender?  Is he a convicted felon? People will sue CTA  left and right.   It's called doing due diligence  

Yea but it doesn't take 2 plus months for all of that like I had a record when I came on it was minor things but talking with some people they also even said that it took more then a month to get some some said 6 months or more to even get a phone call from them

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, Shannoncvpi said:

Yea but it doesn't take 2 plus months for all of that like I had a record when I came on it was minor things but talking with some people they also even said that it took more then a month to get some some said 6 months or more to even get a phone call from them

Then it seems the question is whether there is enough HR staff to handle it. Pace just gave out a Pacesetter Award just for getting Dempster Pulse staffed, and that's only one line.  Similarly, Carter pushed back against the suggestion to make flaggers rail operators without necessary training.

[NewFlyerMCI]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Similarly, Carter pushed back against the suggestion to make flaggers rail operators without necessary training.

His phrasing is interesting there, the way I understood it, the public request was for a move to direct hiring with all the training that entails and that other rail operators in the country, if they had to flag as part of their training, didn't have to basically do so as a stepping stone job. I know WMATA has their 70/30 rule for rail operators, but if you apply for the job, you apply as a rail operator and go thru however many months of training that is, which could include flagging. I think the ask was basically for the process to be simplified, not to reduce the training requirements for rail operators

Speaking of staff, there also seems to be a group of CTA employees pushing for a move to 2-person train operation. 

EDIT: Slightly related, but I think he was a no-show for that flagger hiring event he mentioned in the article. I believe it was APTA-related, but funny considering the public hot seat he's in

[Busjack]

1.  

11 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I know WMATA has their 70/30 rule for rail operators, but if you apply for the job, you apply as a rail operator and go thru however many months of training that is, which could include flagging. I think the ask was basically for the process to be simplified, not to reduce the training requirements for rail operators

1. @garmon757 went through the process, I (and I presume you) didn't, so I'm not going to claim special expertise on this. My only point was hiring off the streets is not an instant fix, as illustrated by  my citation to Pace, which has "hiring on the spot" events, but still had to "gear up" HR staff, managers, and line instructors to get maybe 20 or 30 additional drivers on one route.
    
2. Again, the best you or I can do is parse this, but he did say "As I’ve noted here before, serving as a rail flagger is the best path to becoming a rail operator. Flaggers are thoroughly trained on right-of-way safety, rail operations, and system communications. This training and experience in railroad operations are an important prerequisite for becoming a rail operator--a path that allows us to maintain the highest safety standards for both riders and employees." So he did say that was the training path.
3. Whatever WMATA does, it has fully automated train control. As demonstrated by the fatal accident there, whatever training is necessary is to deal with what to do when that control fails.

 

11 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Speaking of staff, there also seems to be a group of CTA employees pushing for a move to 2-person train operation.

That's been going on since about 1994, when the 3200s were put into service, and got really loud when 1-man operation started on the Green Line and CTA used "patrol boy belts" to keep passengers out of where the operator had to go to open the left doors, until full-width partitions were installed. They can keep crying 30 years later, but does any sane person think CTA is going to double the staff during a labor shortage?

11 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

EDIT: Slightly related, but I think he was a no-show for that flagger hiring event he mentioned in the article. I believe it was APTA-related, but funny considering the public hot seat he's in

That goes to that he's the executive director of the agency, who can delegate, instead of (as @Shannoncvpi implied) directly responsible for everything. For instance, he's the APTA re-presentative to the White House Roundtable on Clean Bus Manufacturing, which I think is slightly more important than showing up at a welcome event to flagger school. But I suppose you preferred the old days when mayoral lackeys Huberman, Kruesi, and Claypool showed up with da Mare, but didn't know anything about transit.

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Again, the best you or I can do is parse this, but he did say "As I’ve noted here before, serving as a rail flagger is the best path to becoming a rail operator. Flaggers are thoroughly trained on right-of-way safety, rail operations, and system communications. This training and experience in railroad operations are an important prerequisite for becoming a rail operator--a path that allows us to maintain the highest safety standards for both riders and employees." So he did say that was the training path.

Right, but I think folks issue is the presentation. I, personally, am aware you needed to be a flagger (or previously, could also be a CSA?) to be a rail operator, but I'm more into the weeds on this stuff than the average layperson. IMO, I think groups like Commuters Take Action have a point that the path to being a rail operator isn't, or wasn't as publicized until post-pandemic. Even now, if you go to the job page, bus drivers apps are featured prominently, but not flagging positions, and before, it might not have been too clear that you needed to flag before becoming a rail operator. If the ask is basically to directly advertise becoming a rail operator (listing all that entails, such as x months of flagging), I don't see that as unreasonable.

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Whatever WMATA does, it has fully automated train control. As demonstrated by the fatal accident there, whatever training is necessary is to deal with what to do when that control fails.

ATC is actually still not enabled yet lol (I wish), it's supposed to re-enabled sometime this year after getting delayed in Sept of last year

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

They can keep crying 30 years later, but does any sane person think CTA is going to double the staff during a labor shortage?

This has led to several interactions between various groups on Twitter over this exact point

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

That goes to that he's the executive director of the agency, who can delegate, instead of (as @Shannoncvpi implied) directly responsible for everything. For instance, he's the APTA re-presentative to the White House Roundtable on Clean Bus Manufacturing, which I think is slightly more important than showing up at a welcome event to flagger school. But I suppose you preferred the old days when mayoral lackeys Huberman, Kruesi, and Claypool showed up with da Mare, but didn't know anything about transit.

I think there are more salient points his detractors can make. I see folks criticize him for showing up for APTA duties (part of the job, imo) or that he's paid too much (the position has an appropriate salary, if you think it's too much, replace him, don't lower the salary), but there are other actual criticisms to make (Ventra card taps/system usage, for example). It's funny to me, because I personally would've tried to be visible at events such as these, especially if news and social media criticism got to me as much as it does him (something he's expressed at a board meeting), but it's low-hanging fruit

[Elkmn]

a little off topic but what do Customer Assistants do? Is it possible to have some CAs at low use stations like Kostner and Francisco become train operators? I have no idea though, it's completely mysterious how the CTA works on the inside to me.

[Busjack]

17 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

a little off topic but what do Customer Assistants do? Is it possible to have some CAs at low use stations like Kostner and Francisco become train operators? I have no idea though, it's completely mysterious how the CTA works on the inside to me.

The Customer Assistant job was created when CTA closed the ticket booths (about the same as what Metra just did). They help potential passengers with the ticket vending machines, deal with problems going through the turnstiles, put out the gap fillers to help passengers using mobility devices, point passengers to the bus stop, etc. They don't have anything to do with operating rules, signals, red over red, and other things an operator would have to know.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

but there are other actual criticisms to make (Ventra card taps/system usage, for example). It's funny to me, because I personally would've tried to be visible at events such as these, especially if news and social media criticism got to me as much as it does him (something he's expressed at a board meeting), but it's low-hanging fruit

Again, it's a matter of priorities.

• I'm not sure what Ventra problems you're talking about, but CTA got stuck with a lot of long-term technical contracts* that now it has to work around. To limit it to Ventra, it appeared to be a mistake 12 years ago (I don't think Carter was in charge then), and the fare box procurement was not designed to do what modern fare boxes do, including vending and reading tickets, but to interface with the existing Ventra infrastructure. But Carter didn't say "Choose Scheidt + Bankmann"; the procurement department recommended it, "your Chief Legal Officer" had to say that it was proper to reject the SPX bid, and the CT Board approved the contract. Anyway, Metra was the precipitating cause of the February meltdown.
• You seem more concerned about PR appearances than actually running a transit system. I don't know if you were around when Kruesi and Huberman would stand behind an incoherent Mayor Daley, and then come to the podium and say something asinine, or the time when CTA staged a press conference when Richard Jefferson (ATU 241 president) said "we're going on strike if ..." and the then CTA President said "yes they will."
• You also seem to think that "social media" should rule. CTA tried that when Carole Brown started the "Ask Carole" blog and demonstrated in about a week that she didn't know anything about transit (certainly nothing about Metra and Pace), and, in those days, you could flame people, and we flamed her away in about 2 months. That didn't deter her from seeking a sales tax increase while not improving cooperation. Yet, Carter is supposed to quiver in his boots and change his public perception because "transit experts" like @nitro are on X?

It seems more important for Carter to work on such high level policy issues as that NFI not be a sole source than public perception at a hiring event. Brandon Johnson showing up at a ground breaking at a Starbucks didn't get Bring Home Chicago passed.

_________________

*Another example, CTA being stuck with an old Illinois Bell system.