7000-series - Delivery & Updates

[artthouwill]

14 hours ago, cta5658 said:

I remember when the Pink Line ran 6 car trains (all day for Green Line) for a few months when the 5000's first came into service in 2012

 

8 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I think that was around the time trains were losing power at tower 18 because they were short 4 car trains. I wonder why they lost power and the 2600s kept on going?

 

8 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Maybe since operators were new to them they weren’t coasting then across the gap with enough momentum ??‍♀️ They’re heavier so I’d imagine a bit more stopping distance would make one nervous and they stop sooner

I was once on a 4 car 5000 series train that got stuck crossing Tower 18..  we had to stop in the crossing for reasons I can't remember,  but when we stopped,  the lead car (which I was in) had no contact with the third rail.  We were positioned right where the Purple line and Orange Line tracks meet to join the inner loop tracks.  Other series cars could maintain power because the latter cars still had power to the third rails.  The assumption was that this would be true with the 5000s also.  However,  the operator could not get the train moving at first.  She appeared to have to use a " stinger" to establish power in our car to move the train.  

Cta  did temporarily use 6 car trains all day on the Pink and Green Lines, but eventually returned to the off peak 4 car consists.  Apparently the problem was rectified where the train doesn't lose power if it gas to stop in the middle of the Tower 18 crossing.    It was odd that the 4 car consist could lose power but not a 6 car consist.

[Sam92]

14 hours ago, artthouwill said:

 

 

I was once on a 4 car 5000 series train that got stuck crossing Tower 18..  we had to stop in the crossing for reasons I can't remember,  but when we stopped,  the lead car (which I was in) had no contact with the third rail.  We were positioned right where the Purple line and Orange Line tracks meet to join the inner loop tracks.  Other series cars could maintain power because the latter cars still had power to the third rails.  The assumption was that this would be true with the 5000s also.  However,  the operator could not get the train moving at first.  She appeared to have to use a " stinger" to establish power in our car to move the train.  

Cta  did temporarily use 6 car trains all day on the Pink and Green Lines, but eventually returned to the off peak 4 car consists.  Apparently the problem was rectified where the train doesn't lose power if it gas to stop in the middle of the Tower 18 crossing.    It was odd that the 4 car consist could lose power but not a 6 car consist.

So you’re saying unlike other cars that can keep going as long as ONE CAR keeps contact but the 5000s were dead once the head car broke contact? Maybe the A/C and D/C differences played a part ?

[artthouwill]

29 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

So you’re saying unlike other cars that can keep going as long as ONE CAR keeps contact but the 5000s were dead once the head car broke contact? Maybe the A/C and D/C differences played a part ?

That is what I thought, but I'm not verses in how that actually works. 

[NovaBusFan]

On 10/17/2021 at 11:14 AM, BusHunter said:

Was just thinking if the 5000s are heavy they are probably degrading the already weakened infrastructure on the forest park branch. I wonder are the 7000s lighter? If not what are they gonna do run 3200s until a rehab on that branch? Worst case scenario they could build intermodel stations do a line cut and only run the 3200 west of imd via a transfer at certain point. I think they almost have to rehab that branch. 

The #7000s are lighter than the #5000s, at first I thought they were gonna be heavier than the #5000s.

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, NovaBusFan said:

The #7000s are lighter than the #5000s, at first I thought they were gonna be heavier than the #5000s.

I've been wondering about that.  I thought they were heavier too. But I was unable to find the actual weight of the cars.  Do you know what they weigh?

[NovaBusFan]

5 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I've been wondering about that.  I thought they were heavier too. But I was unable to find the actual weight of the cars.  Do you know what they weigh?

Yeah these weigh between 56,536 and 56,666 lbs from what I seen from a photo from discord. Thats a little heavier than the heaviest #3200s which is the roof board ones that’s over 56k lol. Credit goes to @chicagocubs6323

[artthouwill]

6 hours ago, NovaBusFan said:

Yeah these weigh between 56,536 and 56,666 lbs from what I seen from a photo from discord. Thats a little heavier than the heaviest #3200s which is the roof board ones that’s over 56k lol. Credit goes to @chicagocubs6323

So technically,  weight and track conditions aren't factors that would prevent the 7000s from being deployed in the Blue Line.   Even though I still think that the Brown or Orange will see the first cars, there's nothing stopping CTA from just assigned the first 400 to the Blue Line.  We know the 5000s won't be going to the Blue Line. 

[Sam92]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

So technically,  weight and track conditions aren't factors that would prevent the 7000s from being deployed in the Blue Line.   Even though I still think that the Brown or Orange will see the first cars, there's nothing stopping CTA from just assigned the first 400 to the Blue Line.  We know the 5000s won't be going to the Blue Line. 

I don’t even think the weight is what stopped the 5000s seeing as cta listed all the reasons and never said weight but cause of power issues and fleet compatibility . If that was the case they would’ve totally held off until the end of the Ryan shutdown before assigning a car over there at all. Since cta wants a line with 5000s to be 100% 5000 then even if things were right out on Forest park the blue line wouldn’t have gotten them if the red was still planned to get them because they’d be 40-80 cars short (even If you did the smart thing and gave red and blue as the busier lines the 5000s one line would be short that many). At least the current set up with red having them allows 5 lines to be converted and have modern fleets vs assigning them to the blue line which would only green and pink to get them after; or either brown OR orange and there’s be up to 100 cars sitting idle somewhere in order to avoid mixing fleets

[artthouwill]

3 hours ago, Sam92 said:

I don’t even think the weight is what stopped the 5000s seeing as cta listed all the reasons and never said weight but cause of power issues and fleet compatibility . If that was the case they would’ve totally held off until the end of the Ryan shutdown before assigning a car over there at all. Since cta wants a line with 5000s to be 100% 5000 then even if things were right out on Forest park the blue line wouldn’t have gotten them if the red was still planned to get them because they’d be 40-80 cars short (even If you did the smart thing and gave red and blue as the busier lines the 5000s one line would be short that many). At least the current set up with red having them allows 5 lines to be converted and have modern fleets vs assigning them to the blue line which would only green and pink to get them after; or either brown OR orange and there’s be up to 100 cars sitting idle somewhere in order to avoid mixing fleets

Actually the Red Line got 5000s during the Rwd Line South Rebuild meaning the Red Line ran the Green Line route from Roosevelt to 63rd and Ashland.   I was at the public hearing at the South Shore Country Club and it was stated that the 5000s wouldn't be put on the Red Line unless the Dan Ryan portion was rebuilt.

Maybe the Blue Line tracks aren't the reason for 5000s not going there, but the weight us an issue when you factor in the condition of the track bed and the infrastructure.   The Forest Park branch needs to be rebuilt like the Dan Ryan was    i don't doubt that the Forest Park branch needs a power upgrades, but that's no good with bad track conditions.  Remember the Dan Ryan had a power upgrade a few years before the rebuild 

I know CRA doesn't like mixing incomparable fleets on one line  CTA can give all of the 7000s to the Blue Line(400) and return the 3200s back to the Brown line Orange Lines.  

[NovaBusFan]

14 hours ago, artthouwill said:

So technically,  weight and track conditions aren't factors that would prevent the 7000s from being deployed in the Blue Line.   Even though I still think that the Brown or Orange will see the first cars, there's nothing stopping CTA from just assigned the first 400 to the Blue Line.  We know the 5000s won't be going to the Blue Line. 

Sorry that I am kinda late to reply. Tbh it would be nice to put the #5000s on the Blue. Regardless of terrible track conditions that played a huge cancellation. The tracks just can’t handle a huge fleet of them. And lots of people don’t like the seating arrangement I believe that CTA can fix that if they want to. 

[artthouwill]

13 minutes ago, NovaBusFan said:

Sorry that I am kinda late to reply. Tbh it would be nice to put the #5000s on the Blue. Regardless of terrible track conditions that played a huge cancellation. The tracks just can’t handle a huge fleet of them. And lots of people don’t like the seating arrangement I believe that CTA can fix that if they want to. 

The seating arrangement is what it is and really can't be changed as it would affect the way those cars operate.   Reconfigured seats affect weight distribution and the cats are built to support weight Based on aisle facing seats.  That might explain why the 7000s are closer to the weight of the 3200s as the seating configuration is mostly similar  with the forward facing seats.  I believe that the seat supports on the 5000s are built into the frame as opposed to the floor 

[Sam92]

20 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Actually the Red Line got 5000s during the Rwd Line South Rebuild meaning the Red Line ran the Green Line route from Roosevelt to 63rd and Ashland.   I was at the public hearing at the South Shore Country Club and it was stated that the 5000s wouldn't be put on the Red Line unless the Dan Ryan portion was rebuilt.

Maybe the Blue Line tracks aren't the reason for 5000s not going there, but the weight us an issue when you factor in the condition of the track bed and the infrastructure.   The Forest Park branch needs to be rebuilt like the Dan Ryan was    i don't doubt that the Forest Park branch needs a power upgrades, but that's no good with bad track conditions.  Remember the Dan Ryan had a power upgrade a few years before the rebuild 

I know CRA doesn't like mixing incomparable fleets on one line  CTA can give all of the 7000s to the Blue Line(400) and return the 3200s back to the Brown line Orange Lines.  

Do you have a date for that meeting? Sounds like you’re right if you heard it from them but it’s more of a “we can’t take any more 5000s here because we discovered a weight issue” that caused them to divert deliveries to Purple and yellow cause they had a good 5-6 sets in by then. As far as blue I think they might make the new IMD turnback handle a few more trains so they can turn more around to help keep 7000s on the newer/busier parts of the line to help put new cars but not overload the traction system with too many at a time 

[strictures]

15 hours ago, artthouwill said:

The seating arrangement is what it is and really can't be changed as it would affect the way those cars operate.   Reconfigured seats affect weight distribution and the cats are built to support weight Based on aisle facing seats.  That might explain why the 7000s are closer to the weight of the 3200s as the seating configuration is mostly similar  with the forward facing seats.  I believe that the seat supports on the 5000s are built into the frame as opposed to the floor 

That's utterly absurd, as aisle facing sitting passengers, with packed standing passengers weigh more than sitting passengers, with fewer standees.  Proof of that came when the CTA had the "bright idea" of removing some seats & making more standing room on some buses out of Forest Glen.  The only problem was, they had some totally packed buses with standees & the buses couldn't move, because the body of the bus was sitting on the tires.  They dumped that idiotic idea really fast!

As for the seats on the 5000s being built into the frame, take a look at all the buses the CTA buys with front facing seats.  Their seats are also built into the frame & are supported by a diagonal brace, along with being bolted to the side.  There's no support near the aisle  The exact same thing could be done to the 5000s.  The sole reason they won't change the seating pattern, is the inability to admit they were wrong doing those godawful side facing seats!

[Sam92]

12 minutes ago, strictures said:

That's utterly absurd, as aisle facing sitting passengers, with packed standing passengers weigh more than sitting passengers, with fewer standees.  Proof of that came when the CTA had the "bright idea" of removing some seats & making more standing room on some buses out of Forest Glen.  The only problem was, they had some totally packed buses with standees & the buses couldn't move, because the body of the bus was sitting on the tires.  They dumped that idiotic idea really fast!

As for the seats on the 5000s being built into the frame, take a look at all the buses the CTA buys with front facing seats.  Their seats are also built into the frame & are supported by a diagonal brace, along with being bolted to the side.  There's no support near the aisle  The exact same thing could be done to the 5000s.  The sole reason they won't change the seating pattern, is the inability to admit they were wrong doing those godawful side facing seats!

Yeah but these are basically the new workhorse of the fleet and it would take a lot of time to do that across 700 cars. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

43 minutes ago, strictures said:

Proof of that came when the CTA had the "bright idea" of removing some seats & making more standing room on some buses out of Forest Glen.  The only problem was, they had some totally packed buses with standees & the buses couldn't move, because the body of the bus was sitting on the tires.  They dumped that idiotic idea really fast!

Do you mean the D40LF's that had a row of aisle facing seats on each side until the back door? Because they didn't get rid of that idea, they just moved those buses from FG lol. There are still regular complaints about the stimulus artics on this forum because of a nearly identical seating arrangement lol.

Also, just because that might've been the case for the bus, does in no way mean that similar weight and weight distribution would affect the train in the same manner.

[artthouwill]

3 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Do you have a date for that meeting? Sounds like you’re right if you heard it from them but it’s more of a “we can’t take any more 5000s here because we discovered a weight issue” that caused them to divert deliveries to Purple and yellow cause they had a good 5-6 sets in by then. As far as blue I think they might make the new IMD turnback handle a few more trains so they can turn more around to help keep 7000s on the newer/busier parts of the line to help put new cars but not overload the traction system with too many at a time 

The hearing i  attended was in June 18, 2012..  That was the first of a few public hearings concerning the project.  There wasn't an emphasis on the New cars being assigned to the Red Line,  but they did mention it.  Most of the meeting was people griping about losing service and the inconvenience and the fact that the North Side ( White people) would never have to endure a complete shutdown like the South Side (Black people) would have to endure.

[strictures]

59 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Do you mean the D40LF's that had a row of aisle facing seats on each side until the back door? Because they didn't get rid of that idea, they just moved those buses from FG lol. There are still regular complaints about the stimulus artics on this forum because of a nearly identical seating arrangement lol.

Also, just because that might've been the case for the bus, does in no way mean that similar weight and weight distribution would affect the train in the same manner.

No, there were some Novas they did that to, I rode them on the 84 Peterson & it was a disaster, what with a ton of Senn & Mather students packed in there.  

And since the train cars are built far stronger than buses, there wouldn't be any problems attaching the seats to the outside frame.

[Mr.NewFlyer1051]

56 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Do you mean the D40LF's that had a row of aisle facing seats on each side until the back door? Because they didn't get rid of that idea, they just moved those buses from FG lol.

actually they didn’t remove them from FG. FG still has 2 of em 1934-1935

[strictures]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

Yeah but these are basically the new workhorse of the fleet and it would take a lot of time to do that across 700 cars. 

No it wouldn't take a lot of time to change the seating.  No more than a couple of days per car at first, then they would get down a procedure & a day at most.  Just take one 8 car trainset out of service at a time & send them to Skokie for the work.  The entire fleet could be done in two years & the added bonus of no more homeless stretched out over four-five seats at a time!

Remember, that seat arrangement was created by a guy who retired before the fleet was even in revenue service.

I have no idea why the last 100 of the 1000 series of buses was given that rotten side facing seats.  By that time, the CTA knew the public hated them.

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, strictures said:

No it wouldn't take a lot of time to change the seating.  No more than a couple of days per car at first, then they would get down a procedure & a day at most.  Just take one 8 car trainset out of service at a time & send them to Skokie for the work.  The entire fleet could be done in two years & the added bonus of no more homeless stretched out over four-five seats at a time!

Remember, that seat arrangement was created by a guy who retired before the fleet was even in revenue service.

I have no idea why the last 100 of the 1000 series of buses was given that rotten side facing seats.  By that time, the CTA knew the public hated them.

How is 2 years not a long time to you? Even relative to how long the cars would be in service, that's still not a short period of time lol

Overall, I agree with you, all-aisle facing seating is bad. However, the logic behind them was sound, more capacity for no cost. However, I say again, just because the buses could reconfigure seating doesn't mean the trains could do that as easily. I've seen various seat configurations on buses over the years. I've never seen changed seat configurations on trains, anywhere.

Besides, even if CTA hasn't directly said anything about the unpopularity of the seating arrangements on the 5000s, they didn't keep if for the next iteration of train cars. IMO, that's acknowledgement, however tacit, that they made a mistake

[NovaBusFan]

21 hours ago, artthouwill said:

The seating arrangement is what it is and really can't be changed as it would affect the way those cars operate.   Reconfigured seats affect weight distribution and the cats are built to support weight Based on aisle facing seats.  That might explain why the 7000s are closer to the weight of the 3200s as the seating configuration is mostly similar  with the forward facing seats.  I believe that the seat supports on the 5000s are built into the frame as opposed to the floor 

Oh tbh I thought the seats were like that to handle standing passengers which made me guess that could maybe be another reason the #5000s seating is like that.  I also didn’t know that seating arrangements affect how cars operate or weigh. Thanks.

 

[artthouwill]

1 minute ago, NovaBusFan said:

Oh tbh I thought the seats were like that to handle standing passengers which made me guess that could maybe be another reason the #5000s seating is like that.  I also didn’t know that seating arrangements affect how cars operate or weigh. Thanks.

 

The purpose of the seating arrangement was to increase capacity in the form of additional standing room. 

[NovaBusFan]

13 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

The purpose of the seating arrangement was to increase capacity in the form of additional standing room. 

I knew it

[Sam92]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

The purpose of the seating arrangement was to increase capacity in the form of additional standing room. 

 

6 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

How is 2 years not a long time to you? Even relative to how long the cars would be in service, that's still not a short period of time lol

Overall, I agree with you, all-aisle facing seating is bad. However, the logic behind them was sound, more capacity for no cost. However, I say again, just because the buses could reconfigure seating doesn't mean the trains could do that as easily. I've seen various seat configurations on buses over the years. I've never seen changed seat configurations on trains, anywhere.

Besides, even if CTA hasn't directly said anything about the unpopularity of the seating arrangements on the 5000s, they didn't keep if for the next iteration of train cars. IMO, that's acknowledgement, however tacit, that they made a mistake

Tbh I feel like aisle facing seats may not be popular but they have their place if used right. Ideally the 5000s arrangement are perfect for red and blue considering it allows more people to fit the same space. That’s why you notice with 1930-2029 on the new flyers they were always bounced around garages with the heaviest routes. What’s supposed to happen with seating arrangements like these ideally is: you use longtitutional seating for crowded routes that have a lot of on and off boarding (cottage, king, 79th) and equipment with the regular arrangement for long distance rider patterns (express, commuters etc). Of course on the rail side the only place where what I said would make sense is if purple operated all day and exclusively out of linden. You could use red line to handle the on and off riders with 5000s and 7000s on the purple since they travel further and would be on the train longer to be bugged by the interior

[artthouwill]

11 hours ago, Sam92 said:

 

Tbh I feel like aisle facing seats may not be popular but they have their place if used right. Ideally the 5000s arrangement are perfect for red and blue considering it allows more people to fit the same space. That’s why you notice with 1930-2029 on the new flyers they were always bounced around garages with the heaviest routes. What’s supposed to happen with seating arrangements like these ideally is: you use longtitutional seating for crowded routes that have a lot of on and off boarding (cottage, king, 79th) and equipment with the regular arrangement for long distance rider patterns (express, commuters etc). Of course on the rail side the only place where what I said would make sense is if purple operated all day and exclusively out of linden. You could use red line to handle the on and off riders with 5000s and 7000s on the purple since they travel further and would be on the train longer to be bugged by the interior

I can follow your logic. But CTA did a poor job execution.   The Blue Line should have received power upgrades during the 5000s testing period

  Then upon accepting the order, the Red and Blue should have received these cars.  They may have needed to order additional cars to fill both lines and even more cars if Yellow and Purple needed them.  Or put the 5009s on Brown instead or Pink and Green.