7000-series - Delivery & Updates

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

Add screens above the doors that show route information (including a diagram of a station when the "This is _____" announcement plays, a list of transfers at the station, and any other helpful things) and improve the lighted map from the 5000s to show green arrows for the direction of travel and have lines you can transfer to start flashing yellow on the map, and I will be a VERY happy camper.

New subway cars on the Tokyo Metro have the screens, and subway cars in Hong Kong have the lighted maps.

[MetroShadow]

Add screens above the doors that show route information (including a diagram of a station when the "This is _____" announcement plays, a list of transfers at the station, and any other helpful things) and improve the lighted map from the 5000s to show green arrows for the direction of travel and have lines you can transfer to start flashing yellow on the map, and I will be a VERY happy camper.

New subway cars on the Tokyo Metro have the screens, and subway cars in Hong Kong have the lighted maps.

Tokyo's system has a mix of the newer screens and the strip maps (The Ginza line had the strip maps and the Marunouchi Line had a 50/50 consist of screens and strip maps--from my visit), which brings up that days-old debate about whether or not to just settle for the screens/FINDs or just continue with the strip maps (which honestly, neither is a bad idea).

[TripleTransit1]

I wish that the 7000s would have the same seating arrangement as the 2400s. The 2400s are the only remaining rail cars to have front- and rear-view seats. I wonder if Boeing-Vertol is still in business (they probably aren't ).

[Busjack]

I wish that the 7000s would have the same seating arrangement as the 2400s. The 2400s are the only remaining rail cars to have front- and rear-view seats. I wonder if Boeing-Vertol is still in business (they probably aren't ).

Boeing still is, but the rail car operation isn't.*

However, there is nothing unique to Boeing in that arrangement; the 2600 series Budd cars essentially had it, and it appears that Budd was acquired by Bombardier.

The issue basically is that at about 1990, CTA decided that seats were not a priority, resulting in 1 x 2 seating in the 3200s (and 4400 and 5300 series buses), and then saying that the 5000s have the same number of seats as the 3200s. So will the 7000s, although they will have an arrangement somewhat similar to the 3200s.

Also, the fact is that regardless of whoever was the successful bidder, it has been on CTA specifications.

__________

*Boeing going into the transit business was one of the "guns to butter" changes in capacity after the Vietnam War, similar to Rohr and Grumman going into the Flxible bus business. Neither worked.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

...and the Marunouchi Line had a 50/50 consist of screens and strip maps...)

Yeah, I heard the Marunouchi line 02 Series were getting redone. I have a model of a un-rebuilt set.

[artthouwill]

Add screens above the doors that show route information (including a diagram of a station when the "This is _____" announcement plays, a list of transfers at the station, and any other helpful things) and improve the lighted map from the 5000s to show green arrows for the direction of travel and have lines you can transfer to start flashing yellow on the map, and I will be a VERY happy camper.

New subway cars on the Tokyo Metro have the screens, and subway cars in Hong Kong have the lighted maps.

The Tokyo trains are long in both car length and consists. Yet they still have that bowling alley aisle facing setup which I loathe.

[joechicago]

Gonna take a bit longer for these to show up:

The CTA has rejected the only two bids submitted to manufacture 846 rail cars and instead will restart the procurement process by the summer in an effort to drum up more competition and lower pricing, transit officials said Tuesday .

And this is interesting:

The new CTA request for proposals from manufacturers will drop a requirement in last year’s original tender process that the next generation of rail cars, to be called the 7000 Series, must be compatible with the CTA’s 5000 Series cars, which are the newest current series and still being delivered by Bombardier Transit Corp.

[Busjack]

Gonna take a bit longer for these to show up:

And this is interesting:

I read this, but as usual, it doesn't make any sense.

The Bombardier bid was approximately $1.64 million a car (I assume that there was some inflation in the out year options), which is about the same as what the article says CTA is paying for the 5000s ($1.59 millon).* Originally, they said when exercising the remaining options on the 5000s that was because the next generation would be about $2.4 million.

And, after decades of trying to assure that related families could run together, they are now going to try to complicate operations by having two large families being incompatible?

The only rational explanation I can come up with is that Quinn put the arm on CTA to steer the contract to Sumitomo, so the assembly would be here (although Sumitomo did bid). But Quinn will be out by the due date.

In any event, Tammy Chase is covering up the real reason, as usual.

__________

*I put the numbers through Excel, to be sure, since I think I might have been confused previously.

[joechicago]

I read this, but as usual, it doesn't make any sense.

The Bombardier bid was approximately $1.64 million a car (I assume that there was some inflation in the out year options), which is about the same as what the article says CTA is paying for the 5000s ($1.59 millon).* Originally, they said when exercising the remaining options on the 5000s that was because the next generation would be about $2.4 million.

And, after decades of trying to assure that related families could run together, they are now going to try to complicate operations by having two large families being incompatible?

The only rational explanation I can come up with is that Quinn put the arm on CTA to steer the contract to Sumitomo, so the assembly would be here (although Sumitomo did bid). But Quinn will be out by the due date.

In any event, Tammy Chase is covering up the real reason, as usual.

__________

*I put the numbers through Excel, to be sure, since I think I might have been confused previously.

Yeah, probably more to the story then is being shared. I wonder though how much sway Quinn has at the CTA though. Doesn't Rahm control more of the board & the presidency?

I did find this quote encouraging. Would be nice to see something different then just an updated version of the 5000.

“The 7000 Series cars could end up looking different than the standard CTA car for the past 40 years,’’ she said.

[BusHunter]

I read this, but as usual, it doesn't make any sense.

The Bombardier bid was approximately $1.64 million a car (I assume that there was some inflation in the out year options), which is about the same as what the article says CTA is paying for the 5000s ($1.59 millon).* Originally, they said when exercising the remaining options on the 5000s that was because the next generation would be about $2.4 million.

And, after decades of trying to assure that related families could run together, they are now going to try to complicate operations by having two large families being incompatible?

The only rational explanation I can come up with is that Quinn put the arm on CTA to steer the contract to Sumitomo, so the assembly would be here (although Sumitomo did bid). But Quinn will be out by the due date.

Yeah that's what it looks like is happening. I don't know if CTA and the city are trying to manipulate the bids or not. I think that's a bad idea to not have the cars compatible with each other. These cars will run between 25-40 years so it's not like a bus that you can fix your mistake in 12 years. Now the cars will be segregated, like the #5000's are now. Plus they are going to have an issue in the future when the 130th extension opens they will need 84 cars from somewhere. They are going to have to take from the #5000's stock at one of the #5000's assigned lines. Plus they are going to have to order extra cars that may be forced to sit around because someone is not proceeding on the red line extension at a faster rate plus the rpm is calling for 10 car stations on the north side main, so they might debut 10 car trains maybe with the startup of service to 130th. so what's a reasonable assumption for the order? I would say maybe 800 cars at least.

[Busjack]

Yeah, probably more to the story then is being shared. I wonder though how much sway Quinn has at the CTA though. Doesn't Rahm control more of the board & the presidency?.....

The latter is true, but the question may be whether they are counting on state bond money, or legislative authorization for more bonds, and Rahm doesn't control that. Remember that Quinn wants you to be believe that all the Illinois Jobs Now money (like for the Red Line South) is out of his personal pocket.

My surmise is, like the Metra car deal, he needs to say he brought some jobs to Illinois.

[Busjack]

... I think that's a bad idea to not have the cars compatible with each other. ....so what's a reasonable assumption for the order? I would say maybe 800 cars at least.

In that there would be options over the 200(?) base, probably doesn't make any difference other than the contract is for a max of 846.

The point to which I thought you were going is if the 7000s are essentially going to be restricted to the Blue, Orange, and Brown Lines, what are they going to run on the Red if they ever do need the 80 or so cars for the extension, plus 25% growth (maybe another 80 cars) for 10 car trains? Suddenly, there are 160 incompatible cars at the proposed 122nd St Yard, or something like that, and one gets the problem of having to push a dead train. It is one thing to have an interim problem like that now, but as you point out, a 35 year problem if the cars are incompatible.

Not to mention that whenever the 3200s are supposed to be replaced, those on the Red Line will say "why are we stuck with the old cars with the crappy seating," unless the intent is to take the 5000s off where they were first placed.

[BusHunter]

In that there would be options over the 200(?) base, probably doesn't make any difference other than the contract is for a max of 846.

The point to which I thought you were going is if the 7000s are essentially going to be restricted to the Blue, Orange, and Brown Lines, what are they going to run on the Red if they ever do need the 80 or so cars for the extension, plus 25% growth (maybe another 80 cars) for 10 car trains? Suddenly, there are 160 incompatible cars at the proposed 122nd St Yard, or something like that, and one gets the problem of having to push a dead train. It is one thing to have an interim problem like that now, but as you point out, a 35 year problem if the cars are incompatible.

Not to mention that whenever the 3200s are supposed to be replaced, those on the Red Line will say "why are we stuck with the old cars with the crappy seating," unless the intent is to take the 5000s off where they were first placed.

Yeah but the Orange line is supposed to get #5000's. So if they take #5000's stock cause we know Howard yard is not going to have these #7000 series cars that only leaves the Orange line and Green/Pink lines to take #5000's from. If they take 100 #5000 cars from the Orange line then where does that leave CTA? Taking from the Green or Pink line and having a half segregated fleet. Maybe just maybe they could just take from Pink and Orange but the Green/Pink shared/borrowed fleet pool is going to have to stop.

[Busjack]

Yeah but the Orange line is supposed to get #5000's. So if they take #5000's stock cause we know Howard yard is not going to have these #7000 series cars that only leaves the Orange line and Green/Pink lines to take #5000's from. If they take 100 #5000 cars from the Orange line then where does that leave CTA? Taking from the Green or Pink line and having a half segregated fleet. Maybe just maybe they could just take from Pink and Orange but the Green/Pink shared/borrowed fleet pool is going to have to stop.

I implied in my last sentence that you can't assume that Howard won't trade 5000s for 7000s, but obviously some line is going to complain about eventually getting the 5000s.

Whether current numbers imply that certain lines get certain series, or whether this knocks back the 7000s enough that they will eventually replace the 3200s seems now to be completely up in the air. Maybe they figure they will wreck enough 2600s in runaway crashes, first.

[Mr.cta85]

Let's not read too much into this article guys all she basically said was the only reason why the bid for the new cars were so low was because they required that the new series be compatable With the 5000's. Once the new bid starts up again whose to say that the possibility of the 7000 series being compatable With the 5000's won't happen? Either the new cars will or won't be but I don't believe cta is that dumb though I'm sure they will still pick the cheapest bid as well as the new cars being able to couple with the 5k's. They CAN'T be THAT dumb...prove us wrong cta decision makers. Why would they switch back to direct current cars anyway?

[Busjack]

Let's not read too much into this article guys all she basically said was the only reason why the bid for the new cars were so low was because they required that the new series be compatable With the 5000's. Once the new bid starts up again whose to say that the possibility of the 7000 series being compatable With the 5000's won't happen? Either the new cars will or won't be but I don't believe cta is that dumb though I'm sure they will still pick the cheapest bid as well as the new cars being able to couple with the 5k's. They CAN'T be THAT dumb...prove us wrong cta decision makers. Why would they switch back to direct current cars anyway?

That's inconsistent with how bidding works. If they think they can get a lower bid by removing that from the spec, someone is not going to bid that the next time. If say, some Korean bids $1.2 million for an incompatible car and Bombardier bids $1.6 million for a compatible one, the Korean will file a protest (with the FTA if federal funds are involved) if it does not get the contract. In fact, that's how it appears that Boston got stuck with cars from an unreliable Korean manufacturer, who has left the U.S. market.

Certainly, if Sumitomo got the word to CTA that its bid was $160 million more than Bombardier's because of the compatibility issue, Sumitomo is not going to resubmit that bid.

In fact, CTA behavior has been the opposite, although bus procurement may be separate from rail procurement. CTA rejected all sorts of "we kindly request" from Nova, but still picked the Nova bid, even though it appears to be about $80,000 more per bus than what Pace is paying for 40 foot buses.

[BusHunter]

I implied in my last sentence that you can't assume that Howard won't trade 5000s for 7000s, but obviously some line is going to complain about eventually getting the 5000s.

Whether current numbers imply that certain lines get certain series, or whether this knocks back the 7000s enough that they will eventually replace the 3200s seems now to be completely up in the air. Maybe they figure they will wreck enough 2600s in runaway crashes, first.

Yeah, but you are talking a almost 500 car transfer from Howard yard to where the Brown and Blue line? You are right that whoever ends up with the #5000's has 40 years of longitudinal seats to look forward to and probably won't be happy, that's why it would be smart to mix the fleet, but you can't do that if cars are incompatible. Like MrCTA85 says, surely CTA can't be that dumb. But maybe they are. Here they sit on #5000's that are being built that could be changed from longitudinal seating and they don't do anything. I guess they never heard of cantilevered seats.

[Busjack]

,,, Like MrCTA85 says, surely CTA can't be that dumb. But maybe they are. Here they sit on #5000's that are being built that could be changed from longitudinal seating and they don't do anything. I guess they never heard of cantilevered seats.

Apparently they heard about them about 3 years ago, but since then have been adamant about the 5000s for whatever reason. It seems like renewing that debate now isn't going anywhere.

[strictures]

I guess they never heard of cantilevered seats.

Of course they've heard of cantilevered seats.

All the 1000 series NF 40s have them.

[Busjack]

...Why would they switch back to direct current cars anyway?

I just caught this one, but nobody but you said anything about DC motors.

What is more likely is something that was brought up at the beginning of this topic--whether Bombardier software is necessary to control the propulsion package or anything else.

[2200SeriesFan]

That'd be really silly, if the 7000s weren't compatible with the 5000s. I'd suspect probably the ultimate bidder the CTA chose would make them compatible with 5000s, but I guess we'll see what happens whenever the winning bidder is chosen. Is the CTA trying to choose a bid to start the contract to develop the 7000s railcars, before the end of this year?

[Busjack]

....Is the CTA trying to choose a bid to start the contract to develop the 7000s railcars, before the end of this year?

I don't think so now. Prior articles on the bid opening said an award about August, but the dates mentioned in today's article imply a year's delay, although a larger base order.

As far as anything official, new specs are not on the Procurement Opportunities page at the moment, and even if a bid due date were there, the last cycle showed all sorts of extensions for addenda. I assume that CTA would also have to go through the prebid meeting and questions phases again.

[geneking7320]

I am wondering about the "not requiring compatibility" between the 5Ks and 7Ks. If the functional differences between the 3200s and the 5000s are worth retaining why NOT require compatibility? Previous posters have mentioned problems non-compatibility could cause. Additionally, if the next car series isn't required to be compatible with the 5000s and IF both series won't run on the same route maybe consideration should be given to changes in the car envelope too. Of course, that could co$t big buck$.

[Around the Horn]

I think they are going to stay with married pair 48 foot cars,but I don;t see them keeping the 2600 series styleing

[Busjack]

I think they are going to stay with married pair 48 foot cars,but I don;t see them keeping the 2600 series styleing

You folks are reading too much into this.

I noted at the top of the thread that the existing specs called for 3 aesthetic proposals, and apparently the same for the 5000s, as Huberman posted the proposals (apparently in the days when the President actually reported to the board). Nothing came of the latter.

All they are trying to do here is cheapen up the proposal, not bid out anything radically new.