8350-series Nova LFS - Updates

[YoungBusLover]

#8587 andc#8618 are at SS.

[artthouwill]

8 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

#8587 andc#8618 are at SS.

So deliveries are starting to ramp back up,  although I expect another delay due to weather coming up soon.   We should get to see which south side gets new Novas after C.

[jajuan]

10 hours ago, artthouwill said:

So deliveries are starting to ramp back up,  although I expect another delay due to weather coming up soon.   We should get to see which south side gets new Novas after C.

Well before that, we'll see if the rumor that K only gets a small allotment actually holds up.

[YoungBusLover]

11 hours ago, artthouwill said:

So deliveries are starting to ramp back up,  although I expect another delay due to weather coming up soon.   We should get to see which south side gets new Novas after C.

31 minutes ago, jajuan said:

Well before that, we'll see if the rumor that K only gets a small allotment actually holds up.

Well K is up to 30 right now adding #8596 to the roster yesterday.  The deliveries are quite still slow but they're nearing completion for the time being.  #8586, #8588,#8590, #8591, #8593, #8594, #8595, #8601, #8602, #8604, #8605, #8607, #8608, #8609, #8610, #8611, #8612, #8613, #8614, #8615, #8617, #8620, #8621, #8622, #8624, and #8625 have to be seen or delivered at SS.  In the meantime I think K and C may get the remaining batch for now.

 

[artthouwill]

4 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

Well K is up to 30 right now adding #8596 to the roster yesterday.  The deliveries are quite still slow but they're nearing completion for the time being.  #8586, #8588,#8590, #8591, #8593, #8594, #8595, #8601, #8602, #8604, #8605, #8607, #8608, #8609, #8610, #8611, #8612, #8613, #8614, #8615, #8617, #8620, #8621, #8622, #8624, and #8625 have to be seen or delivered at SS.  In the meantime I think K and C may get the remaining batch for now.

 

I would agree with that.  I believe that Option 3 and possibly option 4 will go to south side garages.  There's still a possibility for North Park to get in on the action if too many 1630 and up New Flyers bite the rust.   I don't think CTA wants to send any Novas to North Park,  but it may be forced to.  

There's still the unanswered questions about the 208 buses CTA is planning to purchase.  Assuming that they will all be electric ( which still doesn't make sense), how many will be artics since 4000 - 4207 have the same problems as 1630 - 2029?  CTA can't keep the current Proterras running consistently.   How long does CTA think they can keep 1000 - 1629 running?  The oldest of these are about to enter their 19th year of service.   

[YoungBusLover]

23 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I would agree with that.  I believe that Option 3 and possibly option 4 will go to south side garages.  There's still a possibility for North Park to get in on the action if too many 1630 and up New Flyers bite the rust.   I don't think CTA wants to send any Novas to North Park,  but it may be forced to.  

There's still the unanswered questions about the 208 buses CTA is planning to purchase.  Assuming that they will all be electric ( which still doesn't make sense), how many will be artics since 4000 - 4207 have the same problems as 1630 - 2029?  CTA can't keep the current Proterras running consistently.   How long does CTA think they can keep 1000 - 1629 running?  The oldest of these are about to enter their 19th year of service.   

If only they were smart enough to realize that Hybrids are the way to go for the time being especially when they know that they don't have a good timeline for when the infrastructure will be ready to support a large number of electric equipment from 2025 to 2040. As far as the 1000s are concerned from #1000 - #1629 I think it'll be an  70/30 spilt of those buses getting rehabbed while the other 30% from the #1630 - #2029 will receive something. The writing is on the wall for that batch though along with the #4000s. Can't beat a dead horse on it though but if it ain't dead don't retire it just yet. 

 

[YoungBusLover]

Just now, YoungBusLover said:

If only they were smart enough to realize that Hybrids are the way to go for the time being especially when they know that they don't have a good timeline for when the infrastructure will be ready to support a large number of electric equipment from 2025 to 2040. As far as the 1000s are concerned from #1000 - #1629 I think it'll be an  70/30 spilt of those buses getting rehabbed while the other 30% from the #1630 - #2029 will receive something. The writing is on the wall for that batch though along with the #4000s. Can't beat a dead horse on it though but if it ain't dead don't retire it just yet. 

 

Forgot to mention #8615 is now at SS. ?

[jajuan]

On 1/12/2024 at 2:48 PM, artthouwill said:

I would agree with that.  I believe that Option 3 and possibly option 4 will go to south side garages.  There's still a possibility for North Park to get in on the action if too many 1630 and up New Flyers bite the rust.   I don't think CTA wants to send any Novas to North Park,  but it may be forced to.  

There's still the unanswered questions about the 208 buses CTA is planning to purchase.  Assuming that they will all be electric ( which still doesn't make sense), how many will be artics since 4000 - 4207 have the same problems as 1630 - 2029?  CTA can't keep the current Proterras running consistently.   How long does CTA think they can keep 1000 - 1629 running?  The oldest of these are about to enter their 19th year of service.   

Well if necessity forced it, there is precedent for CTA buses hanging on for extended periods. The D901s hit 19 years of service. The Americanas also made it to 19 years of service a couple years after the D901s left service. The Flxible 3700s made it to 22 years before replacement by the TMC 4900s. Yes CTA has said in the past in wanted to get out of the pattern of bus models hovering close to the 20 year mark in age. But funding, delays here and there from manufactures and the number of a specific model to be replaced (that last one being especially true of the NF 1000s), have all led to difficulty in breaking that pattern. Besides CTA already stated when the procurement process for the 8350s first started and before we knew the current contract would be with Nova, that roughly 400 would still survive beyond the completion of 8350s deliveries by way of a second rehab. We assumed it would primarily 1630-2029 because they're the younger side of the 1000s. But the discovered reality of how brutal road salts used to battle Chicago winters have been on their composite bodies moves the needle to the earlier option 1000s for rehabbing. They might be older, but a number of them seem to outrun a lot of 7900s, which surprisingly have been seeming pretty sluggish in comparison.

3 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

If only they were smart enough to realize that Hybrids are the way to go for the time being especially when they know that they don't have a good timeline for when the infrastructure will be ready to support a large number of electric equipment from 2025 to 2040. As far as the 1000s are concerned from #1000 - #1629 I think it'll be an  70/30 spilt of those buses getting rehabbed while the other 30% from the #1630 - #2029 will receive something. The writing is on the wall for that batch though along with the #4000s. Can't beat a dead horse on it though but if it ain't dead don't retire it just yet. 

 

Yeah hybrids would have been a good choice to ease the transition from full diesel to electric. Muni, SEPTA, and MTA in NYC, to name a few big city TAs, have taken that route while navigating closer to electric. But CTA's fixation with clean diesel buses along with its now fixation and rush towards electric despite there still being no timeline for getting needed infrastructure in place to facilitate more routes beyond the two routes some use of electric buses squashed that.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

If only they were smart enough to realize that Hybrids are the way to go

Actually, I don't think so. Unless the technology has really improved, they increased mieage from about 3.4 to 3.9 mpg (they weren't Toyotas) and some of them (at least the Pace ones) didn't turn off when stopped. While NF still makes them, there were also notations in this forum that San Francisco didn't like them.

In the meantime, the activists are still bitching about the 8350s, which, BTW, is this topic.

 

[YoungBusLover]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Actually, I don't think so. Unless the technology has really improved, they increased mieage from about 3.4 to 3.9 mpg (they weren't Toyotas) and some of them (at least the Pace ones) didn't turn off when stopped. While NF still makes them, there were also notations in this forum that San Francisco didn't like them.

In the meantime, the activists are still bitching about the 8350s, which, BTW, is this topic.

 

Oh don't get me wrong I get that aspect of the mileage being saved wasn't major but from a P/R standpoint, Hybrids would shut a lot of people up especially when the money isn't there to fully support this pipe dream that they're selling to the public via the federal government.  

[Busjack]

58 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

Hybrids would shut a lot of people up

From the link in my post, it obviously wouldn't, and hasn't. But I'll discuss the article in the proper topic.

[YoungBusLover]

#8588 and #8593 are at SS.

[Javi75]

With Nova planning to close bus manufacturing operations for the American transit agencies, what is the likelihood of CTA going through with all options for 8350s? Are the 8350s a slow rollout like the 7900s and would every garage eventually get them? They’re at five garages and there’s not even 300 in service, I also don’t think mandating transit agencies to go all electric is a wise decision. If diesel buses have been working all this time just keep it that way especially when we’ve seen what brutally cold weather can do to electric vehicles looks at Tesla. I don’t mean to go on a little tangent but activists aren’t the smartest people and use emotions and ideas over logic and common sense. If CTA struggled this hard on Sunday and Monday what is it going to do with an all electric bus fleet? 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Javi75 said:

With Nova planning to close bus manufacturing operations for the American transit agencies, what is the likelihood of CTA going through with all options for 8350s? Are the 8350s a slow rollout like the 7900s and would every garage eventually get them? They’re at five garages and there’s not even 300 in service, I also don’t think mandating transit agencies to go all electric is a wise decision. If diesel buses have been working all this time just keep it that way especially when we’ve seen what brutally cold weather can do to electric vehicles looks at Tesla. I don’t mean to go on a little tangent but activists aren’t the smartest people and use emotions and ideas over logic and common sense. If CTA struggled this hard on Sunday and Monday what is it going to do with an all electric bus fleet? 

I believe CTA will exercise all 5 options for the 8350s.  I think CTA is trying to have these buses spread out among six garages with the line exception being North Park.   If the 1630-2029 and the 4000s continue to fall apart at a high rate,  CTA may be forced to allocate some Novas to North Park.

I've already shared my views on electric buses and I won't repeat them again.  

[YoungBusLover]

#8590 and #8625 are at SS. 

[YoungBusLover]

#8601 is at SS.

[Rhys Pate]

On 1/12/2024 at 2:48 PM, artthouwill said:

I would agree with that.  I believe that Option 3 and possibly option 4 will go to south side garages.  There's still a possibility for North Park to get in on the action if too many 1630 and up New Flyers bite the rust.   I don't think CTA wants to send any Novas to North Park,  but it may be forced to.  

There's still the unanswered questions about the 208 buses CTA is planning to purchase.  Assuming that they will all be electric ( which still doesn't make sense), how many will be artics since 4000 - 4207 have the same problems as 1630 - 2029?  CTA can't keep the current Proterras running consistently.   How long does CTA think they can keep 1000 - 1629 running?  The oldest of these are about to enter their 19th year of service.   

Why does the CTA not want any Novas at North Park? I am curious what the reason is. The 1630-2029 and 4000s rust problem is serious, and the CTA may have to have Novas at North Park (new 8350s, reassigning 7900s, or some of both). Over a quarter of the 1630-2029 buses are out of service.

[Erin Mishkin Jr.]

5 minutes ago, Rhys Pate said:

Why does the CTA not want any Novas at North Park? I am curious what the reason is. The 1630-2029 and 4000s rust problem is serious, and the CTA may have to have Novas at North Park (new 8350s, reassigning 7900s, or some of both). Over a quarter of the 1630-2029 buses are out of service.

There’s remaining buses that have run out of 103rd that have not been put in service yet, 1065 1067 1090 1092 and a lot of 1100s awaiting service

[Rhys Pate]

Why are those 1000s out of service? Also, would those buses be enough to replace all of the carbon steel-frame buses at North Park (or at least a lot of them)?

[Rhys Pate]

Is it possible that the CTA will give North Park both Novas (8350s and/or 7900s) and more stainless steel-frame 1000s?

[YoungBusLover]

11 minutes ago, Rhys Pate said:

Is it possible that the CTA will give North Park both Novas (8350s and/or 7900s) and more stainless steel-frame 1000s?

That would be everyone's wish but that's not how things work. 

[Rhys Pate]

I get it. How long have those 1000s and 1100s been sitting out of service? Would those be enough to replace North Park’s carbon steel-frame buses without North Park getting Novas?

[RJL6000]

Right now it looks like not all of the newly (within the past few weeks) delivered upper 8500s and lower 8600s are going to K. For example, 8600 and 8603 are currently at C.

And some of those 8600s are going to C to take out many of its remaining carbon-steel-framed 1000s (which C currently still has many).

And NP will end up being the lowest priority even though it has about as many carbon-steel-framed 1000s as C does. Those 1000s still at NP will likely be replaced with either life-extending-rehabbed stainless-steel-framed 1000s transferred from the South Side garages and/or some of the 7900-series Novas also transferred from other garages.

[Bus1883]

5 hours ago, RJL6000 said:

Right now it looks like not all of the newly (within the past few weeks) delivered upper 8500s and lower 8600s are going to K. For example, 8600 and 8603 are currently at C.

And some of those 8600s are going to C to take out many of its remaining carbon-steel-framed 1000s (which C currently still has many).

And NP will end up being the lowest priority even though it has about as many carbon-steel-framed 1000s as C does. Those 1000s still at NP will likely be replaced with either life-extending-rehabbed stainless-steel-framed 1000s transferred from the South Side garages and/or some of the 7900-series Novas also transferred from other garages.

It’ll be weird to see the older 1000s remain and the newer 1000s get retired because of this rusting issue. If you inspect a 1630+ bus take the body piece I guarantee you the frames are badly rusted.

[Rhys Pate]

There are also smaller numbers of carbon steel-frame 1000s at F and at K.

It would make sense for P to be the highest priority instead of the lowest priority because P has so many of the carbon steel-frame 1000s. P also has a lot of 4000s, which have the same problem as the carbon steel-frame 1000s. I am thinking that the CTA will have to assign Novas to P (new 8350s and/or reassigning 7900s). The CTA may do that and assign more stainless steel-frame 1000s to P.