X4 Cottage Grove Express

[artthouwill]

6 minutes ago, Busjack said:

It's clear from the map that all CTA is doing is overlaying X4 on the current 4. It does not care about historic routes, and 4 never went to Chicago Ave., as do 3 and 26.

IIT must have had some demand for 1. 1 gets 548 boardings a day.

That's 274 per peak period divided  by 18 trips for about 15 riders per trip.  Deom my eye test, most of those boarding are north of Roosevelt.    And except for the Adams/Jackson portion, it's a duplicate route and now CTA is adding another duplicate with the addition of the X4 which will also serve IIT.

[Busjack]

11 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

That's 274 per peak period divided  by 18 trips for about 15 riders per trip.  Deom my eye test, most of those boarding are north of Roosevelt.    And except for the Adams/Jackson portion, it's a duplicate route and now CTA is adding another duplicate with the addition of the X4 which will also serve IIT.

Don't forget, we're dealing with COVID numbers. 2019, it was 1723, or 3 times as much.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Don't forget, we're dealing with COVID numbers. 2019, it was 1723, or 3 times as much.

Even then, the majority of the passenger boarding were north of Roosevelt regardless of direction or time of peak service.   This is from my riding the 1 from Roosevelt to Union Station  and sometimes intentionally riding the 1 to 35th letting 4s bypass me

  Therefore the numbers seem inflated.   I guess for the convenience of a few  and historically South Michigan Ave has had a route linking it to either Union Station and/or Northwestern Station  

  

 

[Busjack]

27 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Even then, the majority of the passenger boarding were north of Roosevelt regardless of direction or time of peak service.   This is from my riding the 1 from Roosevelt to Union Station  and sometimes intentionally riding the 1 to 35th letting 4s bypass me

The question isn't who boarded north of Roosevelt, but who was going to the vicinity of IIT.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

The question isn't who boarded north of Roosevelt, but who was going to the vicinity of IIT.

Whoever is lucky to get a 1 after missing a 4.  If they all catch a 4, then no one.

[YoungBusLover]

30 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Whoever is lucky to get a 1 after missing a 4.  If they all catch a 4, then no one.

The 1 could really use a restructure, Instead of terminating at 34th and Michigan have it extended and terminate at 51st/Drexel Square via 31st & LSD to 47th/Lake Park then have it follow the current routing of the 2 until it reaches 51st and Drexel. It would really be a nice alternate for the 2, 6 & 28. 

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, YoungBusLover said:

The 1 could really use a restructure, Instead of terminating at 34th and Michigan have it extended and terminate at 51st/Drexel Square via 31st & LSD to 47th/Lake Park then have it follow the current routing of the 2 until it reaches 51st and Drexel. It would really be a nice alternate for the 2, 6 & 28. 

That's really ancient history. 1 Drexel-Hyde Park used to go Mich/Indiana, Oakwood, Drexel, Hyde Park, and what is essentially 6 to South Shore/83. Around 1973, it was routed via Michael Reese and Lake Meadows, then Cottage, and ther above route to Stony/63rd. At a later point, it was combined with 38 Indiana, and then most recently, cut back to 35th.

What you proposed is essentially redundant to 2, and hence will not happen. 2 historically ended at Drexel Square.

 

[YoungBusLover]

14 minutes ago, Busjack said:

That's really ancient history. 1 Drexel-Hyde Park used to go Mich/Indiana, Oakwood, Drexel, Hyde Park, and what is essentially 6 to South Shore/83. Around 1973, it was routed via Michael Reese and Lake Meadows, then Cottage, and ther above route to Stony/63rd. At a later point, it was combined with 38 Indiana, and then most recently, cut back to 35th.

What you proposed is essentially redundant to 2, and hence will not happen. 2 historically ended at Drexel Square.

 

Anything's possible at this point I wouldn't necessarily say it's redundant to the 2 since it runs more local than express and depending on the time of day along with the direction it would really help out a lot because lets face it. The 2 has  Bi-Directional peak service so maybe the 1 could help with that because I've had several trips with no leader on the 2 and no 6s or 28s in front of me either, it's no mistake that the last few arctics we have popped up on the 2 in the last month or so It's getting that packed out there. The current 2/6/28 intervals have been a disaster since the pandemic and with ridership slowly creeping back up it would be nice for some type of change to a few of these under performing routes. 

[artthouwill]

31 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

The 1 could really use a restructure, Instead of terminating at 34th and Michigan have it extended and terminate at 51st/Drexel Square via 31st & LSD to 47th/Lake Park then have it follow the current routing of the 2 until it reaches 51st and Drexel. It would really be a nice alternate for the 2, 6 & 28. 

No one would take that.  Why ride a local to 31st them  express to 57th when I can ride from downtown express to 47th?  The 1 as presently constructed isn't useful and adding the X4 along that route doesn't make it better.  I'd rather renamed the nonpeak direction 2 as a 1. Ir make the 1 a S Hyde Park Express to supplement the 6 and not send the 28 downtown at all.  

[Busjack]

9 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

Anything's possible at this point I wouldn't necessarily say it's redundant to the 2 since it runs more local than express and depending on the time of day along with the direction it would really help out a lot because lets face it. The 2 has  Bi-Directional peak service so maybe the 1 could help with that because I've had several trips with no leader on the 2 and no 6s or 28s in front of me either, it's no mistake that the last few arctics we have popped up on the 2 in the last month or so It's getting that packed out there. The current 2/6/28 intervals have been a disaster since the pandemic and with ridership slowly creeping back up it would be nice for some type of change to a few of these under performing routes. 

But essentially the problems are that this would be a route with only a short express segment, it bypasses IIT, which, presumably is the service point, and there isn't any evidence that there is demand between 31st and Hyde Park, especially that couldn't be covered by 4/X4.

If there is an interval problem on 2/6/28 (and, since you list all 3, it must be on Lake Park between 47th and Hyde Park), put more resources into those routes.For instance, at one time there were 6s to 63rd-Stony Island, but not now.

[NewFlyerMCI]

5 hours ago, Busjack said:

It's clear from the map that all CTA is doing is overlaying X4 on the current 4. It does not care about historic routes, and 4 never went to Chicago Ave., as do 3 and 26.

IIT must have had some demand for 1. 1 gets 548 boardings a day.

Reverse commute from union? You’d think it serve the campus a bit more directly

EDIT: I must get in the habit of scrolling down on mobile before replying

[Busjack]

4 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Ir make the 1 a S Hyde Park Express to supplement the 6 and not send the 28 downtown at all.

The whole point of sending 28 downtown was to take passengers off cross-town routes to Jeffery. If anything should be done to 28, it would be the 1950s to about 2000 routing to 47th-Indiana L connection, but that isn't going to happen, either

[Busjack]

2 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Reverse commute from union? You’d think it serve the campus a bit more directly

That's where the campus is (unless you are suggesting Dan Ryan to 35th, including the horrendous traffic jam on the overpass between 31st and Roosevelt).

[YoungBusLover]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

No one would take that.  Why ride a local to 31st them  express to 57th when I can ride from downtown express to 47th?  The 1 as presently constructed isn't useful and adding the X4 along that route doesn't make it better.  I'd rather renamed the nonpeak direction 2 as a 1. Ir make the 1 a S Hyde Park Express to supplement the 6 and not send the 28 downtown at all.  

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

But essentially the problems are that this would be a route with only a short express segment, it bypasses IIT, which, presumably is the service point, and there isn't any evidence that there is demand between 31st and Hyde Park, especially that couldn't be covered by 4/X4.

If there is an interval problem on 2/6/28 (and, since you list all 3, it must be on Lake Park between 47th and Hyde Park), put more resources into those routes.For instance, at one time there were 6s to 63rd-Stony Island, but not now.

I get what you're saying but I'm just telling you what I've experienced over the past several months, it's ugly out here and the only alternative people have had outside of those 3 routes are the 3/4 and 26 which also have been terrible interval wise as well.  You'll either get a convoy of 3 buses or 1 bus at capacity where you will more than likely get passed up and have to wait another 20-30 minutes at times.  Giving people a new alternative to get to Bronzeville/Lake Meadows/Kenwood/and Hyde Park in under 40 minutes during peak times is something I'd look into because the demand would definitely be there.

 

 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, YoungBusLover said:

I get what you're saying but I'm just telling you what I've experienced over the past several months, it's ugly out here and the only alternative people have had outside of those 3 routes are the 3/4 and 26 which also have been terrible interval wise as well.  You'll either get a convoy of 3 buses or 1 bus at capacity where you will more than likely get passed up and have to wait another 20-30 minutes at times.  Giving people a new alternative to get to Bronzeville/Lake Meadows/Kenwood/and Hyde Park in under 40 minutes during peak times is something I'd look into because the demand would definitely be there.

 

 

I think increasing frequency on the 2 or adding attics on the 2 is a better solution.  Also, replace the 28 between downtown and 59th with a rerouted 1 South Hyde Park Express which would be  bidirectional if you incorporate the south leg (nonpeak direction) of the 2

  Since Hyde Park is the heavy ridership area, that's where the resources should go. 

[renardo870]

Will the 4/X4 still be operated out of 77th Street Garage or will it be shared with 103rd Street Garage? 103rd could help out.

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

I get what you're saying but I'm just telling you what I've experienced over the past several months, it's ugly out here and the only alternative people have had outside of those 3 routes are the 3/4 and 26 which also have been terrible interval wise as well.  You'll either get a convoy of 3 buses or 1 bus at capacity where you will more than likely get passed up and have to wait another 20-30 minutes at times.  Giving people a new alternative to get to Bronzeville/Lake Meadows/Kenwood/and Hyde Park in under 40 minutes during peak times is something I'd look into because the demand would definitely be there.

 

 

All you are essentially saying is that while CTA claimed to have fixed  bus bunching 10 years ago, it hasn't.

If there werre any demand to Lake Meadows (which is south of 31st), CTA wouldn't have yanked 1, and then 31/35.

As for demand to Hyde Park, they used to ride the ME, and now it's half fare.

[BusHunter]

Probably what they should have done is make the #X4 go on LSD at Pershing to either Roosevelt or Balbo. There's alot of service on Michigan between Cermak and Downtown. They would still have the service they have today there. I would have ran the X4 all the way south to the south terminal instead of 95th. This way they give the south of 95th ridership a taste of express service they'll be getting with 130th red line service. 

What would be smart is run the X4 out of 103rd especially if #4's are cut down like the old X express corridors did. That's a very troubled corner at 79th and Cottage to do a relief. Before something happens to someone try to put the majority of service out of 103rd. Plus they could use the #8350's on it. Don't know when 77th gets a cut of new buses. If 103rd is first it could be awhile, this is a multi year order. 

[YoungBusLover]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Probably what they should have done is make the #X4 go on LSD at Pershing to either Roosevelt or Balbo. There's alot of service on Michigan between Cermak and Downtown. They would still have the service they have today there. I would have ran the X4 all the way south to the south terminal instead of 95th. This way they give the south of 95th ridership a taste of express service they'll be getting with 130th red line service. 

What would be smart is run the X4 out of 103rd especially if #4's are cut down like the old X express corridors did. That's a very troubled corner at 79th and Cottage to do a relief. Before something happens to someone try to put the majority of service out of 103rd. Plus they could use the #8350's on it. Don't know when 77th gets a cut of new buses. If 103rd is first it could be awhile, this is a multi year order. 

Well they moved the relief point to 71st and Cottage now but I do agree with potentially moving/sharing the 4 with 103rd , An express route like that would serve its purpose as far as artics are concerned. 

 

[YoungBusLover]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

All you are essentially saying is that while CTA claimed to have fixed  bus bunching 10 years ago, it hasn't.

If there werre any demand to Lake Meadows (which is south of 31st), CTA wouldn't have yanked 1, and then 31/35.

As for demand to Hyde Park, they used to ride the ME, and now it's half fare.

ME is a nice alternative but tell that to the riders that would rather take the 2/4/6 & 28 to and from Downtown via Hyde Park/Kenwood/Lake Meadows & Bronzeville. The 1 doesn't serve much of anything and stays fairly empty during the current time frame it runs on. You'll maybe get 1 1/2 trips that is semi full but that's about it. The proposal I gave would help give commuters a new quicker alternative to get to these locations quicker without having to wait a long period of time. 

[Erin Mishkin Jr.]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/6/8/23160158/cta-approves-new-monthly-pass-brings-back-the-cottage-grove-express-route?_amp=true

[NewFlyerMCI]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Probably what they should have done is make the #X4 go on LSD at Pershing to either Roosevelt or Balbo. There's alot of service on Michigan between Cermak and Downtown. They would still have the service they have today there. I would have ran the X4 all the way south to the south terminal instead of 95th. This way they give the south of 95th ridership a taste of express service they'll be getting with 130th red line service. 

And then you've left people going to Lake Meadows & Mercy Hospital (and I guess IIT?) consigned to the local, only for the X4 to then sit in the traffic that crops up near Soldier Field. There's no point, just let it stay on the street. Sure, there's more service than typical along that corridor (north of Cermak) with both the 3 & 4, but those buses are also crowded by that point, going or south, they could use the extra buses.

I can see your point for service to 115th, but with extra stops probably only going at 98th, 103rd, 111th and maybe 107th, I don't see a real need. With the 115 to 95th, and apparently, a good portion of trips being <2 mile intra-corridor rides, the 4 can handle that just fine.

[BusHunter]

5 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

And then you've left people going to Lake Meadows & Mercy Hospital (and I guess IIT?) consigned to the local, only for the X4 to then sit in the traffic that crops up near Soldier Field. There's no point, just let it stay on the street. Sure, there's more service than typical along that corridor (north of Cermak) with both the 3 & 4, but those buses are also crowded by that point, going or south, they could use the extra buses.

I can see your point for service to 115th, but with extra stops probably only going at 98th, 103rd, 111th and maybe 107th, I don't see a real need. With the 115 to 95th, and apparently, a good portion of trips being <2 mile intra-corridor rides, the 4 can handle that just fine.

By doing what I said it gives the #x4 a sense of speed. The idea being an outlying customer could have the same commute time as a inner city rider. As far as soldier field when would they play on the weekday. It's not many games that are here plus they are moving to Arlington Park. Would the meadows gain from a skip stop routing? I don't know why cta doesn't try an lsd express bus that gets off at Pershing. The north side has a route that gets off at Fullerton. Does nobody ride north of 47th? 

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

By doing what I said it gives the #x4 a sense of speed. The idea being an outlying customer could have the same commute time as a inner city rider. As far as soldier field when would they play on the weekday. It's not many games that are here plus they are moving to Arlington Park. Would the meadows gain from a skip stop routing? I don't know why cta doesn't try an lsd express bus that gets off at Pershing. The north side has a route that gets off at Fullerton. Does nobody ride north of 47th? 

Stopping every 4 blocks isn’t already a sense of speed? 

When I mentioned traffic at soldier field, it wasn’t due to the Bears, but b/c it’s a natural chokepoint. There’s usually a slowdown right by the stadium during peak, the bears could leave right now and it would still exist. 

Sure, two buses get off at Fullerton, but one of those buses starts at Wacker. Now in fairness, trying to get off LSD at Delaware probably means the 143 isn’t all together faster than the 151, but the density is there that the relief is needed. I’m not sure that’s the same scenario for North Kenwood. I’m all for new LSD South express buses, but where would a bus go that gets off at Pershing? You’d basically be relying on North Kenwood alone to support the ridership for that route, and during rush hour, which is likely the only time such a route would run, it’s probably not going to be faster than the 4 and if you go further south enough, there’s the 2

[artthouwill]

At one time I would have supported an X4 routing via Pershing and LSD.  But the City, in its infinite wisdom reduced NB Lake Shore Drive from four lanes to three at the I 55 ramp.  That alone creates a backup    while two lanes appear when NB I55 traffic merges with NB LSD, those two lanes are carrying three lanes worth of traffic.  So in essence  LSD has five lanes carrying seven lanes worth if traffic.  Therefore whatever savings this routing would have possibly achieved is mostly negated by the daily rush hour snarl near Soldier Field.   Part of that backup is also traffic trying to exit on the left for Roosevelt and Columbus, nor to mention the traffic light to access the Museum Campus, plus another light at Roosevelt for EB Roosevelt traffic to access NB LSD.  Thus the savings is negligible at best