6400-series Nova LFS - Updates & Retirements

[Busjack]

With BusHunter noting the showers inside 8100s, someone is noting something similar on a 6400 (seen via CTA Tattler):

[andrethebusman]

Last night at FG a person from maintenance was writing down mileage on every bus that came in. Apparently a bunch of high-mileage ones (over 525000) are about to go bye-bye.

[BusHunter]

Last night at FG a person from maintenance was writing down mileage on every bus that came in. Apparently a bunch of high-mileage ones (over 525000) are about to go bye-bye.

Wow, i didn't know some were that high, before when I was at the rodeo in Skokie, I believe that was a year ago (pictures are on here somewhere), I had seen #6814 was up to 415K and I had figured up that the buses were doing 30-40K a year. So that would put that same bus today around 460K and it is an option bus. So you can imagine the base order buses have to have another 40K at least and some more than that. That's an average 500K miles bus. I don't know how they keep them running. I once had a U-Haul truck with 400K miles on it and man that truck was a junk and kept dying out. It wasn't long after that that U-haul dealer upgraded it's fleet. When the vehicles go above 400K, they are basically fix or repair daily vehicles. I'd hate to see the bills for parts for these buses, CTA has to be hemorraging lots of money here.

[Busjack]

Last night at FG a person from maintenance was writing down mileage on every bus that came in. Apparently a bunch of high-mileage ones (over 525000) are about to go bye-bye.

Wow, i didn't know some were that high, before when I was at the rodeo in Skokie, I believe that was a year ago (pictures are on here somewhere), I had seen #6814 was up to 415K and I had figured up that the buses were doing 30-40K a year. So that would put that same bus today around 460K and it is an option bus. So you can imagine the base order buses have to have another 40K at least and some more than that. That's an average 500K miles bus. I don't know how they keep them running. I once had a U-Haul truck with 400K miles on it and man that truck was a junk and kept dying out. It wasn't long after that that U-haul dealer upgraded it's fleet. When the vehicles go above 400K, they are basically fix or repair daily vehicles. I'd hate to see the bills for parts for these buses, CTA has to be hemorraging lots of money here.

I would have thought the worst service histories would be axed first, but 525K is about what is indicated when a bus hits an auction site.

One would also think that a bus cycled FG/77th/FG would have a heck of a lot more mileage on it than one that stayed at FG.

[BusHunter]

 

I would have thought the worst service histories would be axed first, but 525K is about what is indicated when a bus hits an auction site.

One would also think that a bus cycled FG/77th/FG would have a heck of a lot more mileage on it than one that stayed at FG.

There's not many buses left that were at Fg for their whole service life. Just #6793 - #6756 and some buses in that lot are retired like #6789. I wonder what bus had the highest miles ever. One would think #8499, but the #300's ran for 20 years and #301 was still out after that although it's usage was basically limited to non revenue service. #3706 would also be interesting running for 22 years and non revenue service as well. One would think also Pace buses accumulate miles faster because the average speed of the bus is faster and some travel great distances like Plainfield to Downtown. That may be one reason they retire faster than CTA buses.

Edited September 24, 2015 by BusHunter

[Busjack]

There's not many buses left that were at Fg for their whole service life. Just #6793 - #6756 and some buses in that lot are retired like #6789. I wonder what bus had the highest miles ever. One would think #8499, but the #300's ran for 20 years and #301 was still out after that although it's usage was basically limited to non revenue service. #3706 would also be interesting running for 22 years and non revenue service as well. One would think also Pace buses accumulate miles faster because the average speed of the bus is faster and some travel great distances like Plainfield to Downtown. That may be one reason they retire faster than CTA buses.

The first question probably gets muddied by that service frequency was much higher way back (say before the 1973 cuts), and the average propane bus was around 20 years, but there were more buses. I don't think service on route 32 racked up that much more mileage on 8499, compared to what it got on 77th garage routes.

The Pace one also raises similar questions, in that except for divisions that are essentially urban (S and W), more Pace buses sit in the garage nonpeak than CTA buses do.Also, running at 55 mph puts less stress on a vehicle than stopping and starting every 2 blocks. I'm pretty sure that the Pace replacement schedule depends on the existence of funds, although the budget is not transparent with regard to that.

On the Pace one, it is interesting to look at the Downers' Grove-Lisle contract, which lists the buses assigned and their mileage. Compare 2602-2604, which were in service in Aurora for a couple of years, to 2699-2701, only in feeder service.

[BusHunter]

Wow that is interesting, #2699 only has done 90K in 8 years? That's less than most cars at that age. The #2800's aren't doing to bad either 60K in 5 years. They actually stand to drive less by their 8th year, around 75-80K. I guess it all depends where they are used, like you said. The MCI's if doing a morning and afternoon trip out to Plainfield are doing around 160 miles a day as a comparison or 40-45K worst case scenario a year. So they would be in league with the higher mileage vehicles.

[Busjack]

Wow that is interesting, #2699 only has done 90K in 8 years? That's less than most cars at that age. The #2800's aren't doing to bad either 60K in 5 years. They actually stand to drive less by their 8th year, around 75-80K. I guess it all depends where they are used, like you said. The MCI's if doing a morning and afternoon trip out to Plainfield are doing around 160 miles a day as a comparison or 40-45K worst case scenario a year. So they would be in league with the higher mileage vehicles.

It basically comes down to the former Aurora buses, and 2650 which was used at NS and HP before, while 2699-2701 were basically only used in Hinsdale/Burr Ridge. Compare 2767, which was used at NW until 465 was established, to 2793-up, solely used in Lisle.

 

The only real analogies to this topic (besides the 77th one) is how often a FG bus was assigned to 77 or 81 compared to some of the routes northwest of Jefferson Park.

[sw4400]

Wow, i didn't know some were that high, before when I was at the rodeo in Skokie, I believe that was a year ago (pictures are on here somewhere), I had seen #6814 was up to 415K and I had figured up that the buses were doing 30-40K a year. So that would put that same bus today around 460K and it is an option bus. So you can imagine the base order buses have to have another 40K at least and some more than that. That's an average 500K miles bus. I don't know how they keep them running. I once had a U-Haul truck with 400K miles on it and man that truck was a junk and kept dying out. It wasn't long after that that U-haul dealer upgraded it's fleet. When the vehicles go above 400K, they are basically fix or repair daily vehicles. I'd hate to see the bills for parts for these buses, CTA has to be hemorraging lots of money here.

 

I would have thought the worst service histories would be axed first, but 525K is about what is indicated when a bus hits an auction site.

One would also think that a bus cycled FG/77th/FG would have a heck of a lot more mileage on it than one that stayed at FG.

That's very interesting..... I thought with the vehicles of the past(TMC's, Flxibles-both series, New Flyer D40LF-5800's and Novas) that they typically kept the buses closer to the 750,000 mile marker before retirement.

[Busjack]

 

That's very interesting..... I thought with the vehicles of the past(TMC's, Flxibles-both series, New Flyer D40LF-5800's and Novas) that they typically kept the buses closer to the 750,000 mile marker before retirement.

I don't know the mileages, but the 4400s and 5300s were kept well beyond the normal service life, maybe 16-17 years (1991-2008) and they were pretty shot at that point. These Novas would have been about 14 years (2001 deliveries).

The 5800s probably not, as they were delivered in 1995 and gone by 2008. Only argument would be whether NP put more mileage on them than 74th put on the 6000s, which lasted from 1995 to 2010 (and most of them were taken out of service only because of Rodriguez's 20% cut to the system).

[garmon757]

#6503 #6511 and #6777 are officially retired. 

[BusHunter]

#6503 #6511 and #6777 are officially retired. 

Now that the Yellow line no longer needs shuttles, this would be a good time to do a double switch and send over the Chicago #6400's to Fg and retire buses replaced by those and the shuttles no longer being needed. They could probably retire up to 40 buses if they wish, maybe more. So far with no buses retiring makes me skeptical that they need those extra buses for the #X9 and #X49 coming soon. They could always pull a fast one and send 74th 30 #1000's from Chicago and either blank FG or squeeze over the remaining #6400's, but I don't see that happening without a full set of 100 #8100's at Chicago.

[garmon757]

Now that the Yellow line no longer needs shuttles, this would be a good time to do a double switch and send over the Chicago #6400's to Fg and retire buses replaced by those and the shuttles no longer being needed. They could probably retire up to 40 buses if they wish, maybe more. So far with no buses retiring makes me skeptical that they need those extra buses for the #X9 and #X49 coming soon. They could always pull a fast one and send 74th 30 #1000's from Chicago and either blank FG or squeeze over the remaining #6400's, but I don't see that happening without a full set of 100 #8100's at Chicago.

The slow retirement isn't helping with most garages though but you're right; the rest should be at Forest Glen in order to space the fleet out. 74th don't need anymore 1000s. However, 77th really needs to stop hogging 1000s and manipulating other garages fleet.

[BusHunter]

Actually, what would be the point of sending a training bus to FG?  With the current management and political scene, FG just might get the 7900's (the actual buses) while 77th would get the 8200's.  Management could probably give the excuse that 77th puts more mileage on their buses, especially if the 7900's are run mostly on their longer routes like the 3, 4, and 8. 

Yeah, i understand the pessimism. You would think Fg would have something by now. We thought maybe they would get #1000's by now, but no CTA seems to be hoarding those. You would think that FG wouldn't be all old buses, but no CTA goes out of their way again to make this a possibility. Remember how the #6800's, as old as they already were, went to 74th!! So maybe I am dreaming of #8200's, but why send #7900's at all. If they want to maintain the status quo all they have to do is give them a fleet of #1000's. I don't know why CTA is stuck in the 60's when there was rampant discrimination and segregation, we have moved into modern times here. Frankly I'm surprised this is allowed to happen in our present times and no one has lost their job because of this. Can't anyone see the NW side is not getting a fair shake.

All I can say for the NW side is at least we have Pace which is not scared to put new buses here. Maybe one day they will take over more service on the nw side. If CTA continues to neglect and cut service here, that's what will happen. Usually when someone neglects something they eventually lose it. Really though the long term solution is a parent agency with new people making decisions uniformly as a unit instead of a couple people from the south side. There needs to be divisions of authority all around the city so everyone gets a fair shake, then you might solve this once and for all.

Edited November 4, 2015 by BusHunter

[Guest]

Someone please remind CTA5750 that Forest Park yard  in the WEST suburb of Forest Park has the same equipment and that is also on the Blue Line that runs through the WEST SIDE of the city.  Forest Glen also operates the 85 and 91 routes which run through the WEST SIDE of the city.  Also the Orange Line now runs majority 2600 series equipment through the SOUTHWEST SIDE of the city.

As the ARcher garage was once all 6400s before its closing, and 74th along with FG was all 6000 Flxs before receiving 1000s that were initially not slated for that garage, this says more about management intentions concerning fleet management rather than political or discriminatory practices. 

Besides, these "new" buses are still Novas.  I promise you you're not missing much, but next year, which is only 2 months away, you will start getting your wish.

Im aware what FP yard has!  But and those residents have an alternative not too far away! The Green Line!!!  Yes!!! Orange has 2600s  but they also....have 3200s and or 5000s!!!  Why cant CTA do something similar with the Blue Line??? It doesnt have to be 5000s! Id be happy seeing 3200s!  Just asomething to show the residents that CTA continues to update its equipment and residents in all areas CTA serves get their fair share! There is enough new or rehabbed equipment to serve all areas of the city!  Ahh!!! see the difference???  Routes 85 and 91 out of FG are only a pinprick on the west side!!! Count how many routes on the south and west sides that run new buses and the garages they operate out of!!!  The amount of new buses delivered over the past twenty years have mostly gone to south and west side garages with 77th always in the front of the line!  Im just stating facts!  Its not that "Im not missing anything"  my issue is the practice by CTAs unfairness to provide updated, good looking, safe, reliable equipment to ALL areas of the city!  Not just some! The simple fact the NW side has negelcted by CTA! This is evident with the Blue Line!  The stations and rail equipment are so outdated! Time has literally frozen on the Blue!  It has been for 30+ plus years!!!  No replacements scheduled for another 5 to 7 years! That IMO is totally unacceptable!  Believe you me, if this situation were reversed and all new equipment were sent up north and all older equipment were sent south, Im sure there would outrage and it would end up on the news! The bus deliveries in the last twenty years, Dont get me started on that!!! So the arguments your making in contrary to mine couldnt possibly stand! 

[andrethebusman]

If you want to get into history, consider this:

5000-5499 Twin Coaches - North Park, North Ave, Lawndale, 77th as new, though Lawndale and 77th groups within 5 years to Kedzie. When FG opened, most of their fleet was ex North Park and North Av 5000's with some older 1700 Twins (from 1948) thrown in

5500-5999 Flxibles - new to 69th and 77th, large number to Archer late 50's, then 5800's to NP mid 60's 5900's to FG 1970

8000-8149 Flxibles - new to North Park, stayed there until about 1966, when some to FG to replace 5000's, Kedzie to replace Kedzie-Cal TT's

7200-7299 Macks - 69th and 77th until 1969, when a bunch to FG for a few months 1969-70

8200-8349 Flxibles - Originally all to 77th, but very soon most to Archer, by mid 60's a large group to North Av for 66-Chicago TT replacements

8400-8498 short Flxibles - Originally North Park, 77th, Kedzie, by early 60's to FG and Kedzie

100-249, 8500-8650 originally split evenly Keeler, 52nd, Beverly, Lawndale, Limits, then after a couple of years 100's Lawndale and Beverly, 8500's Keeler and 52nd.

300-449 - Most always at Limits, but a few at first at Lawndale, 52nd, Beverly, Keeler for a very short time

3000-3239 - Originally mostly Archer, Kedzie, some at Beverly. Archer group to 77th when 3500's came.

3300-3449 - 77th, Beverly, Archer, Lawndale, Limits, all used on specific routes with tight turns for years

3500-3699 - Archer and 52nd

3730-3875 - New at North Park and 77th, most to North Ave 1973 as TT killers 

North Ave did not get a single new bus 1960 to 1968, and then only 3700-3739 for Lake St

FG never got anything new AT ALL until 1000 5307's. Everything was second hand from some other garage

77th almost always got a chunk of each order. And funny thing, also, was that the first route you could count on seeing a new bus on was South Chicago-Ewing!

[sw4400]

If you want to get into history, consider this:

5000-5499 Twin Coaches - North Park, North Ave, Lawndale, 77th as new, though Lawndale and 77th groups within 5 years to Kedzie. When FG opened, most of their fleet was ex North Park and North Av 5000's with some older 1700 Twins (from 1948) thrown in

5500-5999 Flxibles - new to 69th and 77th, large number to Archer late 50's, then 5800's to NP mid 60's 5900's to FG 1970

8000-8149 Flxibles - new to North Park, stayed there until about 1966, when some to FG to replace 5000's, Kedzie to replace Kedzie-Cal TT's

7200-7299 Macks - 69th and 77th until 1969, when a bunch to FG for a few months 1969-70

8200-8349 Flxibles - Originally all to 77th, but very soon most to Archer, by mid 60's a large group to North Av for 66-Chicago TT replacements

8400-8498 short Flxibles - Originally North Park, 77th, Kedzie, by early 60's to FG and Kedzie

100-249, 8500-8650 originally split evenly Keeler, 52nd, Beverly, Lawndale, Limits, then after a couple of years 100's Lawndale and Beverly, 8500's Keeler and 52nd.

300-449 - Most always at Limits, but a few at first at Lawndale, 52nd, Beverly, Keeler for a very short time

3000-3239 - Originally mostly Archer, Kedzie, some at Beverly. Archer group to 77th when 3500's came.

3300-3449 - 77th, Beverly, Archer, Lawndale, Limits, all used on specific routes with tight turns for years

3500-3699 - Archer and 52nd

3730-3875 - New at North Park and 77th, most to North Ave 1973 as TT killers 

North Ave did not get a single new bus 1960 to 1968, and then only 3700-3739 for Lake St

FG never got anything new AT ALL until 1000 5307's. Everything was second hand from some other garage

77th almost always got a chunk of each order. And funny thing, also, was that the first route you could count on seeing a new bus on was South Chicago-Ewing!

Maybe true back then, but not always.... some of the Flyers I think were delivered from factory to FG, but not sure on that..... but one thing I am sure of is the Novas they currently have..... they got some of those brand new from the factory. Let me list them courtesy of BusHunter's list

6757-6883 for the most part debuted from factory to FG, making them brand new at the time they hit the streets in 2002. The only exception I see in the roster is 6820, which debuted on the #54A.

Question of the new year to come is will FG be getting 8200-8324, or will those be given to garage TBD for some New Flyers to be shipped to FG? If a 7900-Series Nova Instruction bus appears at FG sometime next year, that'll be our answer(6712 was the FG training bus in 2002 before 6757-6883 arrived).

[BusHunter]

If you want to get into history, consider this:

    North Ave did not get a single new bus 1960 to 1968, and then only 3700-3739 for Lake St

FG never got anything new AT ALL until 1000 5307's. Everything was second hand from some other garage

77th almost always got a chunk of each order. And funny thing, also, was that the first route you could count on seeing a new bus on was South Chicago-Ewing!

Do you think the reason the south side gets new buses first is because south shops is on the south side? Or is it simply just more demand for buses out at 77th?

[Guest]

Maybe true back then, but not always.... some of the Flyers I think were delivered from factory to FG, but not sure on that..... but one thing I am sure of is the Novas they currently have..... they got some of those brand new from the factory. Let me list them courtesy of BusHunter's list

6757-6883 for the most part debuted from factory to FG, making them brand new at the time they hit the streets in 2002. The only exception I see in the roster is 6820, which debuted on the #54A.

Question of the new year to come is will FG be getting 8200-8324, or will those be given to garage TBD for some New Flyers to be shipped to FG? If a 7900-Series Nova Instruction bus appears at FG sometime next year, that'll be our answer(6712 was the FG training bus in 2002 before 6757-6883 arrived).

FG got brand new Flyer D901 9930-9974/1600-1624s   9800-9849 Beverly,  9850-9929 went to North Ave. Those later went to FG to join the remainders when North ave closed in 1986  2002 Novas I was there when they arrived. I remember driving #6712 on the 54A prior to the FG delivery.  So Andre's list clearly shows a trend in how FG has been the short end of the stick for many years!!!    

[Busjack]

FG got brand new Flyer D901 9930-9974/1600-1624s   9800-9849 Beverly,  9850-9929 went to North Ave. Those later went to FG to join the remainders when North ave closed in 1986  2002 Novas I was there when they arrived. I remember driving #6712 on the 54A prior to the FG delivery.  So Andre's list clearly shows a trend in how FG has been the short end of the stick for many years!!!    

I saw 6712 as an instruction bus, maybe you were on it?

But since FG got Kedzie's 6000s in return for 5500s that didn't have preheaters, theoretically 675- something to 6883 should have gone to K instead of FG. This (and the discussion of Pace NW and 74th until 2010) indicates what happens when they want to keep certain series exclusive to certain garages.

As BusHunter points out in connection with the 2600s, one has to wonder why CTA is hoarding junk at the moment, if the purpose of getting new equipment is to reduce maintenance costs.

[BusHunter]

Could be they are stocking the extras for the #X9 and #X49. I sincerely doubt they will be using the same buses for that. I plan to do a bus count when that happens to confirm my suspicion or debunk it.

BTW, #8175 is out on the #53 today.

[Busjack]

Could be they are stocking the extras for the #X9 and #X49. I sincerely doubt they will be using the same buses for that. I plan to do a bus count when that happens to confirm my suspicion or debunk it.

BTW, #8175 is out on the #53 today.

As I indicated before (comparing ridership before and after the Xs were killed) can't be that many.Also doesn't appear to be the space to store them. Bus ridership, generally speaking, is down.

[BusHunter]

As I indicated before (comparing ridership before and after the Xs were killed) can't be that many.Also doesn't appear to be the space to store them. Bus ridership, generally speaking, is down.

74th don't have the space? Well if they don't guess who is next door, 77th with it's mammoth space. Routes like #75 or #67 could be transferred over to 77th and they would have a possible interline at Ford City. They can't do interlines with two different garages. Why else would they be hoarding #1000's and not transferring the last #6400's over from Chicago? I believe the thinking is why send #1000's to Fg when they will go right back to 74th in December. That's the only explanation for this that seems logical to me.

To challenge your statement, if 74th doesn't have space now, how did they run #X9 and #X55 out of 74th before. There must be space somewhere. Also if this X service tanks, which I doubt Ashland BRT is sunk for sure, so I would think they would even go the extra mile, even more than necessary to show yes we can run a high speed corridor on ashland. Ashland with it's high ridership should be a banquet of buses!!

Edited November 5, 2015 by BusHunter

[Busjack]

...Why else would they be hoarding #1000's and not transferring the last #6400's over from Chicago?...

That seems to be the $50 million question (except for why are they not crushing the last 6400s from Chicago).

...

To challenge your statement, if 74th doesn't have space now, how did they run #X9 and #X55 out of 74th before....

As I said before, the locals were cut down to once every 12 or 15 minutes. Also, X49 was stationed at Archer, which, the last I was informed, is an Xsport.

[BusHunter]

That seems to be the $50 million question.

As I said before, the locals were cut down to once every 12 or 15 minutes. Also, X49 was stationed at Archer, which, the last I was informed, is an Xsport.

Yeah but if you are saying the locals were in addition to the express fleet which was using the old standard service fleet, that still comes up to 5 buses an hour and #9 can be 2 hrs one way in the rush. So that right there is 20 buses and you still have the #X55 left and the locals. I will grant you that the express service will be faster 10-20 minutes saved per hour of riding, so then you can cut that down from 20 buses to maybe 13-14 buses extra, but 15 here and 15 there is 30 buses, so that sounds right to me for what they would need.