New Eldorados?

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, rotjohns said:

67  new 30-footers makes sense, in reality, if a 30 footer retires (and as we now see, it isn't just the early 2600s at this point), Pace can just replace it at any location with a better running 2600.  I can visibly tell you that the Heritage ones are rusting pretty good, but it was pointed out a long while ago the next batch of 20300s was supposed to go to MV-Batavia (which I honestly never understood anyway), then River, then Heritage.  But obviously FV still has 2600s to replace although not as many as even 3 months ago.  

First, they aren't going to be 20300s, maybe 22300s. Again, I'm guessing, but the 44 seem about enough for Elgin and Niles, with maybe a couple more for Aurora. E;lgin and Niles are the only 2 places that are using 30 foot buses on a full time basis.  Only justification for MV would be 711 and 715, but MV has plenty of other buses sitting around for the feeder contract.

Highland Park only needs 2 or 3 buses, and Director Soto (from Lake County) says HP wants electrics. IMO, the service could be run with Rivians or Ford E-Transits.

The more interesting question is that (as indicated in the January agenda), Pace is going ahead with the CNG purchase for the Wheeling garage, what is Pace going to do with the approximately 95 40 foot buses there? Maybe 64 to West to replace the 6323s there, but what about the other 30 some? To Heritage after it presumably moves to Plainfield?

[Gil]

13 minutes ago, Busjack said:

First, they aren't going to be 20300s, maybe 22300s. Again, I'm guessing, but the 44 seem about enough for Elgin and Niles, with maybe a couple more for Aurora. E;lgin and Niles are the only 2 places that are using 30 foot buses on a full time basis.  Only justification for MV would be 711 and 715, but MV has plenty of other buses sitting around for the feeder contract.

Highland Park only needs 2 or 3 buses, and Director Soto (from Lake County) says HP wants electrics. IMO, the service could be run with Rivians or Ford E-Transits.

The more interesting question is that (as indicated in the January agenda), Pace is going ahead with the CNG purchase for the Wheeling garage, what is Pace going to do with the approximately 95 40 foot buses there? Maybe 64 to West to replace the 6323s there, but what about the other 30 some? To Heritage after it presumably moves to Plainfield?

Heritage was soon to be launched to have it's first electric buses and they have it's lion transit factory in Joliet 

[artthouwill]

13 minutes ago, Busjack said:

First, they aren't going to be 20300s, maybe 22300s. Again, I'm guessing, but the 44 seem about enough for Elgin and Niles, with maybe a couple more for Aurora. E;lgin and Niles are the only 2 places that are using 30 foot buses on a full time basis.  Only justification for MV would be 711 and 715, but MV has plenty of other buses sitting around for the feeder contract.

Highland Park only needs 2 or 3 buses, and Director Soto (from Lake County) says HP wants electrics. IMO, the service could be run with Rivians or Ford E-Transits.

The more interesting question is that (as indicated in the January agenda), Pace is going ahead with the CNG purchase for the Wheeling garage, what is Pace going to do with the approximately 95 40 foot buses there? Maybe 64 to West to replace the 6323s there, but what about the other 30 some? To Heritage after it presumably moves to Plainfield?

Is Plainfield an additional garage or a replacement for Heritage?  My impression was that Plainfield would be the new home for current as well as expanded I - 55 corridor service

  Heritage has space constraints and lising the I'55 Services would return that garage to normal.  Depending on how Pace plans to implement future I - e94 corridor service, Plainfield might be the better choice if Southwest is space constrained.

[Busjack]

6 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Booooooo. Last thing we need is more buses from ENC. XN40’a would’ve looked so good in the Pace scheme

Gillig bidding isn’t surprising. Chicago is one of the big markets they haven’t broken into, and with CNG probably not on the table as an option in the next 10 years, they want to get in where they can now

Giilig bidding is surprising, because on the last 2 contracts (20400s and 20300s) staff told the board that nobody other than ENC would bid on the 30 foot portion of the contract, and explicitly that Gillig would not bid on the 40 foot portion. Gillig can't break into a market if it doesn't bid.

What's surprising is that NF was competitive on both 40 ft bids, being underbid only by a few bucks on this order, and winning the 20400 order despite numerous objections to the specifications (such as to the rear destination sign, which it eventually provided).

IMO, Pace is now over-specing buses, such as specifications for the 30 foot buses being essentially for a Pulse bus. On this solicitation, the main difference between the standard and Pulse buses is that the Pulse ones will have more greeen and purple.

[BusHunter]

19 hours ago, Busjack said:

First, they aren't going to be 20300s, maybe 22300s. Again, I'm guessing, but the 44 seem about enough for Elgin and Niles, with maybe a couple more for Aurora. E;lgin and Niles are the only 2 places that are using 30 foot buses on a full time basis.  Only justification for MV would be 711 and 715, but MV has plenty of other buses sitting around for the feeder contract.

Highland Park only needs 2 or 3 buses, and Director Soto (from Lake County) says HP wants electrics. IMO, the service could be run with Rivians or Ford E-Transits.

The more interesting question is that (as indicated in the January agenda), Pace is going ahead with the CNG purchase for the Wheeling garage, what is Pace going to do with the approximately 95 40 foot buses there? Maybe 64 to West to replace the 6323s there, but what about the other 30 some? To Heritage after it presumably moves to Plainfield?

Well the #20300's only had a base order for 25 buses I believe (its in that neighborhood) they dont seem to be exercising the options, so the #6400's will take the majority of whats left for 2600s. I expect sw, ns and possibly river to get those buses. Nw will just lose its eldorkos to cngs. River is supposed to be expanding, possibly for bigger buses a few or alot remains to be seen. Really only Aurora and Joliet need 20300s so they might get a small option exercised. I think it would be smart to let highland pk be a testbed for small electric bus pilots. Possibly even niles. 

Its been stated dempster pulse will run out of ns so all those #6512's will be headed there. Whether it exclusively runs out of there remains to be seen. Possibly the first cngs could be milwaukee pulse buses. Depends on the dempster timetable but it supposed to be this year the service starts, pulse islands or no pulse islands. 

Plainfield merging with heritage is news to me. I was under the impression that is an mci/highway bus division garage only. It will be open way before wheeling. I just hope there is a wheeling when the new cngs arrive or it will get interesting. 

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Well the #20300's only had a base order for 25 buses I believe (its in that neighborhood) they dont seem to be exercising the options...

Someone else posted a transit magazine article on the 44, and the official Rev Group announcement is here. Pace Inventory topic has 20300-20312, 20314-20323, which is 23 buses. So my prior count is correct.

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

 River is supposed to be expanding, possibly for bigger buses a few or alot remains to be seen.

The main reason is for I-90 service and get out of the rented garage in East Dundee. It once had 6500s and 6700s mostly for Schaumburg work, but now is running 6385s on that, which proves (1) anything can happen and probably will, and (2) Pace doesn't need specialized buses as much as it thought it did.

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Its been stated dempster pulse will run out of ns so all those #6512's will be headed there. Whether it exclusively runs out of there remains to be seen.

Essentially true, but Pace is ambiguous. In various construction announcements.   Pace listed Dempster under both Wheeling garage and NS expansion, but NS expansion isn't scheduled (as opposed to solicitations for River and Wheeling, even though the Wheeling one was cancelled, for currently undisclosed reasons).

The thing I can't figure out is that if Des Plaines is so overcrowded, why hadn't 208 and/or 250 been transferred to NS? Inertia or because NS is represented by the ATU and NW by the Teamsters?

On your other points, staff said that the new bus deliveries are supposed to be coordinated with the garage openings. For instance, the Inventory topic says 6980-6986 are at Acceptance, and Plainfield is supposed to open soon. FWIW, the current specs say that Pace may designate 20 CNG buses as Pulse. 6511-6521 probably will go to the 95th project.

 

[Busjack]

On 1/19/2022 at 10:49 AM, Railguy said:

CNG bus order approved for Wheeling.  

Other details are that the base order is for 20 Pulse buses and 27 replacement buses, and the delivery schedule is to be coordinated with the opening of the Wheeling garage, start of Dempster Pulse service, and retirement schedule (YouTube reference). So, it sounds like South, which started out with only 20 CNGs, not that the whole NW fleet will be replaced at once.

 

BTW, D'Angelo Hartley said on YouTube that 20500s look like they are supposed to be for Halsted Pulse.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Other details are that the base order is for 20 Pulse buses and 27 replacement buses, and the delivery schedule is to be coordinated with the opening of the Wheeling garage, start of Dempster Pulse service, and retirement schedule (YouTube reference). So, it sounds like South, which started out with only 20 CNGs, not that the whole NW fleet will be replaced at once.

 

BTW, some YouTuber said that 20500s look like they are supposed to be for Halsted Pulse.

It looks like Pace is prioritizing Pulse 95th before Halsted  or at the very least moving very quickly.

ENC ( unfortunately) won the bid for the new Wheeling buses.  Fortunately for me I can look Forward to riding the New Flyers at Pace West.  Rhe future looks bleak for the other garages.  I wonder how close or far the other bidders came.

They talked about the FTA 12 year minimum life span of buses purchased with federal funds 

  The oldest buses are the 6323s ( at least for 40ft transits) which aren't due for retirement until 2025.  Couple that with Wheeling's insistence that there is no diesel buses allowed at the new Wheeling garage,  how Pace intends to work out the timing of delivering to make the Wheeling garage effective upon opening,  close the Des Plaines garage, and retire the oldest 6323s?

[Busjack]

35 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

 I wonder how close or far the other bidders came.
 

The bid tabulation is here. In case the linked document disappears, the file is attached.

35 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Couple that with Wheeling's insistence that there is no diesel buses allowed at the new Wheeling garage,  how Pace intends to work out the timing of delivering to make the Wheeling garage effective upon opening,  close the Des Plaines garage, and retire the oldest 6323s?

As my reference to South indicates, I'm not expecting that Wheeling will be all CNG on day one. Only official statement was that Pace would not buy any more diesel buses.

BTS-420982.pdf

[artthouwill]

13 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The bid tabulation is here. In case the linked document disappears, the file is attached.

As my reference to South indicates, I'm not expecting that Wheeling will be all CNG on day one. Only official statement was that Pace would not buy any more diesel buses.

BTS-420982.pdf 121.98 kB · 2 downloads

Thanks for the bid tabulation.  They all were in the ballpark with only a few dollars separating Eldorado and New Flyer. They literally went lowest bidder.   I still would have liked to see New Flyer get that bod for diversity of fleet 

  

[BusHunter]

5 hours ago, artthouwill said:

It looks like Pace is prioritizing Pulse 95th before Halsted  or at the very least moving very quickly.

ENC ( unfortunately) won the bid for the new Wheeling buses.  Fortunately for me I can look Forward to riding the New Flyers at Pace West.  Rhe future looks bleak for the other garages.  I wonder how close or far the other bidders came.

They talked about the FTA 12 year minimum life span of buses purchased with federal funds 

  The oldest buses are the 6323s ( at least for 40ft transits) which aren't due for retirement until 2025.  Couple that with Wheeling's insistence that there is no diesel buses allowed at the new Wheeling garage,  how Pace intends to work out the timing of delivering to make the Wheeling garage effective upon opening,  close the Des Plaines garage, and retire the oldest 6323s?

I was thinking what they could do is while they receive the cngs is just ship them to wheeling dont open the garage and dont use the new buses just store them until the official opening because I see the buses arriving first. This way they could just do one big transfer of garages and its done. 

Pace has said it wants to go back to short buses at the outlying garages, so that statement in itself would mean they will have less eldorkos on the property. 

Pace wants to increase the service on the I-55 corridor, stating that they will be buying more mcis. Somewhere I heard 30 more buses. So that will just about fill that garage. I thought to they might want to run the flex service on I-294 out of Plainfield, so its strictly going to be a highway garage. The capacity heritage has lost should be regained with the loss of the 6900s. 

[Busjack]

36 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I was thinking what they could do is while they receive the cngs is just ship them to wheeling dont open the garage and dont use the new buses just store them until the official opening because I see the buses arriving first. This way they could just do one big transfer of garages and its done.

Apparently you know something Melinda Mettzger doesn't or think she was lying. Not unprecedented, but I don't think so.

 

[artthouwill]

33 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I was thinking what they could do is while they receive the cngs is just ship them to wheeling dont open the garage and dont use the new buses just store them until the official opening because I see the buses arriving first. This way they could just do one big transfer of garages and its done. 

Pace has said it wants to go back to short buses at the outlying garages, so that statement in itself would mean they will have less eldorkos on the property. 

Pace wants to increase the service on the I-55 corridor, stating that they will be buying more mcis. Somewhere I heard 30 more buses. So that will just about fill that garage. I thought to they might want to run the flex service on I-294 out of Plainfield, so its strictly going to be a highway garage. The capacity heritage has lost should be regained with the loss of the 6900s. 

@Busjack  and I were discussing whether Plainfield was in addition to or a replacement of Heritage 

  I was under the impression that it was in addition to and he seemed to think it may replace Heritage

  I also thought Plainfield would be the I -294 series garage as SW doesn't have the capacity. 

As far as storage goes at Wheeling,  I believe 20 of the first 47 CNGs are earmarked for Pulse service 

  Evidently Pulse Dempster will be opening when tho initial delivery starts.   Like Busjack said,  it may be impossible to open Wheeling garage with all CNG buses,  so Pace can just shut Desplaines completely and shift everything to Wheeling.  

Pace also seems to be flirting with closing a garage.

  While closing Evanston seems to be the logical choice,  deadhead may be an issue for some routes .  Pace West could be a viable option for a couple of routes.  I would float closing SW where South and West could split up those routes.  However,  since SW is a newer facility,  I don't know if that's under consideration. 

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Pace also seems to be flirting with closing a garage.

  While closing Evanston seems to be the logical choice,  deadhead may be an issue for some routes .  Pace West could be a viable option for a couple of routes.  I would float closing SW where South and West could split up those routes.  However,  since SW is a newer facility,  I don't know if that's under consideration. 

Not as hard as one would think.

One terminal of 626 is Lincolnshire, which is closer to Wheeling than Evanston.

Although NS was basically built for Wilbus, Wheeling to Wilmette is a straight shot down Willow Road.

That essentially leaves 213 and 215, which were Nortran.

The main flies in the ointment may be all the school trips and that the NS buses might put Wheeling over its storage limit.

[BusHunter]

9 hours ago, Busjack said:

Not as hard as one would think.

One terminal of 626 is Lincolnshire, which is closer to Wheeling than Evanston.

Although NS was basically built for Wilbus, Wheeling to Wilmette is a straight shot down Willow Road.

That essentially leaves 213 and 215, which were Nortran.

The main flies in the ointment may be all the school trips and that the NS buses might put Wheeling over its storage limit.

It all boils down to the cngs they are buying and that total is close to the 130 that are at nw now. So I dont see anyone else closing. West has no more space it runs alot now. 

I dont see wheeling running diesels because no diesel tank will be built there and I dont see them stopping at shell. If that has to happen wheeling and nw will run together for a short period. 

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

....

I dont see wheeling running diesels because no diesel tank will be built there and I dont see them stopping at shell. If that has to happen wheeling and nw will run together for a short period. 

Considering that Pace hasn't yet awarded a design contract, you don't know that. Again, unless Metzger was lying, Pace isn't going to run 47 buses in NW, when it needs twice as many,

I suppose you also believed the sign in front of South Garage that it was an all CNG facility when it had 20 15500s, but I guess they had a diesel tank to fuel the 80 or so NABIs and 7 highway buses S still had.

[artthouwill]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

It all boils down to the cngs they are buying and that total is close to the 130 that are at nw now. So I dont see anyone else closing. West has no more space it runs alot now. 

I dont see wheeling running diesels because no diesel tank will be built there and I dont see them stopping at shell. If that has to happen wheeling and nw will run together for a short period. 

 

46 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Considering that Pace hasn't yet awarded a design contract, you don't know that. Again, unless Metzger was lying, Pace isn't going to run 47 buses in NW, when it needs twice as many,

I suppose you also believed the sign in front of South Garage that it was an all CNG facility when it had 20 15500s, but I guess they had a diesel tank to fuel the 80 or so NABIs and 7 highway buses S still had.

While this point is well taken, the issue seems to lie in the original agreement Pace signed with Wheeling in regards to the new facility.  It was reported that Wheeling insisted,  and Pace agreed,  there wouldn't be ANY DIESEL bus operations from the Wheeling garage   PACE South didn't have to operate under those parameters since the garage was already operational with diesel buses before Pace transitioned it to CNG.  

IF Wheeling is insisting that NO diesel buses operate from Wheeling  and Pace can't convince them that it needs a transition period, then Pace may have to operate 47 buses out of Wheeling.   They could close Evanston in that process.  As options are filled  Wheeling would take on more routes until all 135 buses show up.

  

[BusHunter]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

Considering that Pace hasn't yet awarded a design contract, you don't know that. Again, unless Metzger was lying, Pace isn't going to run 47 buses in NW, when it needs twice as many,

I suppose you also believed the sign in front of South Garage that it was an all CNG facility when it had 20 15500s, but I guess they had a diesel tank to fuel the 80 or so NABIs and 7 highway buses S still had.

Why I mention that wheeling with be a ghost garage for a little bit is that the same thing has been done before with the dundee outstation division. For a long time they had the I-90 buses but they were not using them. They were training operators and setting up the facility. Its the same concept here. Operators need to be trained in using cng whats dangerous about it and whats not. I see a great migration happening from nw to there. They may have to run both garages though because the cng order goes over multiple years, but they could always just run the Pulse buses out of there and thats all. If Dempster Pulse gets delayed they wont even have to do that.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

 

While this point is well taken, the issue seems to lie in the original agreement Pace signed with Wheeling in regards to the new facility.  It was reported that Wheeling insisted,  and Pace agreed,  there wouldn't be ANY DIESEL bus operations from the Wheeling garage   PACE South didn't have to operate under those parameters since the garage was already operational with diesel buses before Pace transitioned it to CNG.  

IF Wheeling is insisting that NO diesel buses operate from Wheeling  and Pace can't convince them that it needs a transition period, then Pace may have to operate 47 buses out of Wheeling.   They could close Evanston in that process.  As options are filled  Wheeling would take on more routes until all 135 buses show up.

  

 

11 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Why I mention that wheeling with be a ghost garage for a little bit is that the same thing has been done before with the dundee outstation division. For a long time they had the I-90 buses but they were not using them. They were training operators and setting up the facility. Its the same concept here. Operators need to be trained in using cng whats dangerous about it and whats not. I see a great migration happening from nw to there. They may have to run both garages though because the cng order goes over multiple years, but they could always just run the Pulse buses out of there and thats all. If Dempster Pulse gets delayed they wont even have to do that.

The only logical conclusion from these two is that Pace would be operating 2 NW garages for about 3 years, even if that would be inefficient. Evanston possibly c;losing would have nothing to do with it, because Pace would have to have some place to put its approx. 50 diesel buses (maybe 40 if restructuring is severe).

East Dundee is an example of a split division, but that happened because River (Elgin) did not have room for an additional 27 buses and some more paratransits. That's the reason there is a plan to expand the Elgin garage to 150 buses.

 

I'm not aware of all the intergovernmental agreements between Wheeling and Pace (for instance Willow Road and the intersection with Wolf Road have been reconstructed), but the Evanston v. RTA case demonstrates that Pace doesn't have to accede to the municipality with regard to garage zoning.

The other question, which comes up here and in the Plainfield  case is how much additional managerial overhead it takes to operate an additional location.

[NewFlyerMCI]

18 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Pace also seems to be flirting with closing a garage.

  While closing Evanston seems to be the logical choice,  deadhead may be an issue for some routes .  Pace West could be a viable option for a couple of routes.  I would float closing SW where South and West could split up those routes.  However,  since SW is a newer facility,  I don't know if that's under consideration. 

Idk how new SW is, but I don't think that's one that would be under consideration for closing. That's a huge amount of deadhead for W and S to pickup and I'm sure Pace likes having all the Midway routes out of one garage.

[artthouwill]

4 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Idk how new SW is, but I don't think that's one that would be under consideration for closing. That's a huge amount of deadhead for W and S to pickup and I'm sure Pace likes having all the Midway routes out of one garage.

I'm not saying Pace will close SW.  Like I said. Evanston seems like the logical choice, but I was floating an alternative 

  Pace West does all of the UPS routes. So deadheading up the Tri-State to 95th isn't unreasonable

  The same thing with South as it was once a 395 operator, so depending on space, it could operates of the SW routes as the Tri State is near to that garage as well.  Again. Not a likely scenario,  but not necessarily out of the range of possibilities. 

[MetroShadow]

On 1/19/2022 at 6:51 PM, Busjack said:

Not as hard as one would think.

One terminal of 626 is Lincolnshire, which is closer to Wheeling than Evanston.

Although NS was basically built for Wilbus, Wheeling to Wilmette is a straight shot down Willow Road.

That essentially leaves 213 and 215, which were Nortran.

The main flies in the ointment may be all the school trips and that the NS buses might put Wheeling over its storage limit.

I still contend with NS not closing since it's a newer garage. And a 6-day a week one at that. 

Plus depending on the 420s (and 290 if that wasn't split already), I think NW would be the target 

[artthouwill]

9 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

I still contend with NS not closing since it's a newer garage. And a 6-day a week one at that. 

Plus depending on the 420s (and 290 if that wasn't split already), I think NW would be the target 

O think you misunderstood the context.  During the Pace Planning z committee meeting the idea was floated about operating out of 5 garages instead of 6 ( S, SW, W, Nzw, NS, and N).  Assuming Wheeling replaces NW, that means one of the other garages would have to close if Pace decides to go that route.  N will be an electric fleet garage.  S is a CNG garage.  W is a very heavy garage, so that only leaves NS and SW.  THE odds on favorite to close between the two would be NS. though I floated a scenario where SW could be closed.  But in all likelihood nothing closes because closing either one poses certain operational challenges.

 

[Sam92]

14 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

O think you misunderstood the context.  During the Pace Planning z committee meeting the idea was floated about operating out of 5 garages instead of 6 ( S, SW, W, Nzw, NS, and N).  Assuming Wheeling replaces NW, that means one of the other garages would have to close if Pace decides to go that route.  N will be an electric fleet garage.  S is a CNG garage.  W is a very heavy garage, so that only leaves NS and SW.  THE odds on favorite to close between the two would be NS. though I floated a scenario where SW could be closed.  But in all likelihood nothing closes because closing either one poses certain operational challenges.

 

Hmm I don't know too much about NS but I feel SW has a few heavy hitters that I doubt anothr garage could handle. Like the 380's. 

[Railguy]

3 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Hmm I don't know too much about NS but I feel SW has a few heavy hitters that I doubt anothr garage could handle. Like the 380's. 

And Pulse 95th is funded for construction