New Eldorados?

[Busjack]

So much for the "express" Axesses using an entirely different block of numbers from the rest of the recent 40-foot fleet. (Although I still believe that the "express" Axesses will use 6385-6399 instead of simply picking up with 6377, which will instead be used for any pickup of options for the main Axess series, in which case the options for additional "regular" Axesses will use 6377-6384 then jump from 6384 straight to 6400.)

Given how 2379-2400 were handled, I'm not betting on that. The only time Pace jumped in the 2000s was that 2200 got a new series, but certainly not 2272, 2292, 2379 or 2401.

Only question is what they do if they get to 6599.

>

BTW here's an interior shot.

That's slightly different than other low floor surburbans I've seen, in that the steps are in the normal position, but that should have dawned on me when I saw the window arrangement. Often the steps are just back of the securement area, but I guess it doesn't matter since the only wheels well to clear are at the rear.

While I was expecting high back seats, I was expecting Pace fabric rather than leather (or fake leather).

Going back to BusHunter's 2010 windows point, clearly on the inside they are like 2010 and 2830-2831 that even if the glass extends to the outside, they are clearly in the rounded rectangle frames, as opposed to how RTS and Flxible windows were in squared frames.

[MetroShadow]

A photo of 6385 has appeared on another group. Sliding sedan door, no rear door, upholstered seats with overhead storage.

That honestly isn't a bad look. Unusual since we've not seen a door like that since the 7000/7100's, but I don't see what's the deal with the doors especially if the NABI-junk in DC and LA have the same set up with their BRT's (video shown here). You might have to have training to prevent interference with the doors; but in what circumstances would you have the wheel turned almost to 90 degree mark?

[Guest]

A photo of 6385 has appeared on another group. Sliding sedan door, no rear door, upholstered seats with overhead storage.

No Thanks!!! It looks nice brand new but the design, I dont like it!

[artthouwill]

• The picture wasn't clear enough for me to come to the conclusion about the windows. Too much reflection in the window area.
• As far as loading, if it goes on 877/888, it will load northbound only at the Harvey TC, Blue Island terminal, Homewood Park and Ride,or back lot of Pace South Holland. Only issue is how it would do on the return trip in DuPage County. Similarly, if it goes on 755/855, the only loading inbound would be at Park & Rides. It undoubtedly loads better than an MCI would, and probably unloads better than an MCI, too.
• Maybe it is more cumbersome if it has to be diverted to a local route, like the Nova Classics eventually were, but I don't know if I foresee that.

If the buses are used on 755/855, there is the issue of loading downtown Chicago. I specifically think of the stop at Monroe/Wabash if the 855 has to turn east on Monroe from Wabash and A. park behind a loading J14 artic or B. try to get to the curb after passing a car blocking the same area, where the bus has to cut in front of said car to get to the curb.

As far as sliding doors go, most MCI Communter coaches have the dual "sliding doors" , similar to what the original RTS buses had. If anything, that would've been the way to go other than the standard doors. Even Prevost has come up with a Commuter coach version of its X3-45 coach with the dual sliding doors.

[BusHunter]

Given how 2379-2400 were handled, I'm not betting on that. The only time Pace jumped in the 2000s was that 2200 got a new series, but certainly not 2272, 2292, 2379 or 2401.

Only question is what they do if they get to 6599.

That's slightly different than other low floor surburbans I've seen, in that the steps are in the normal position, but that should have dawned on me when I saw the window arrangement. Often the steps are just back of the securement area, but I guess it doesn't matter since the only wheels well to clear are at the rear.

While I was expecting high back seats, I was expecting Pace fabric rather than leather (or fake leather).

Going back to BusHunter's 2010 windows point, clearly on the inside they are like 2010 and 2830-2831 that even if the glass extends to the outside, they are clearly in the rounded rectangle frames, as opposed to how RTS and Flxible windows were in squared frames.

Those windows are really strange. It's like I'm looking at two different buses. What did they do put one kind of frame on the inside and a different one on the outside. The two frames look like their molded together. Also weird that there's two sets of stairs one before the back row and another at the mid point. The seats look like fake leather but on second glance appear to be cloth. How do they intend to keep that clean? At least they have the map lights like the Nova classics but the Novas look a little more comfortable.

[Busjack]

Those windows are really strange. It's like I'm looking at two different buses. What did they do put one kind of frame on the inside and a different one on the outside. The two frames look like their molded together. Also weird that there's two sets of stairs one before the back row and another at the mid point. The seats look like fake leather but on second glance appear to be cloth. How do they intend to keep that clean? At least they have the map lights like the Nova classics but the Novas look a little more comfortable.

On the seats. like the windows, we'll have to wait. But as I said, the windows are not the same as on an RTS or Flx Metro.

The two sets of steps are easier to explain, in that the second set is needed to get the forward facing seats over the rear wheel wells, while leaving some leg room. In a bus with a transit configuration, those seats would have been longitudinal.

____________

Which reminds me of an anecdote. Rochester NY had suburban New Looks, with the raised floor for the forward facing high back seats, and doors for under the floor luggage storage, similar to a motor coach. At some point, they put advertising frames on the buses, covering the doors, to which I reacted "how are you supposed to get your luggage out?"

[Railwaymodeler]

That door looks real easy to damage. New York has RTS buses with doors that opened in a similar way, but were halves, one opened forward, one backwards. This was shown on the Honeymooners at one point. Those doors looked much more heavy duty.

But if this were for BRT systems where curb appeal is more important than regular fixed route transit, and the stops are in a more controlled environment, then I can see how it works.

[Busjack]

That door looks real easy to damage. New York has RTS buses with doors that opened in a similar way, but were halves, one opened forward, one backwards. This was shown on the Honeymooners at one point. Those doors looked much more heavy duty.

...

I've ridden on RTS03s (you can guess where from the above) with the split clamshell doors, and they had problems. The main one was that if it lost air pressure the door popped open, instead of defaulted to closed. Then an interlock was activated and you went nowhere.

The other issue is that the mirror mount was funny, in that otherwise the front half would hit it. Somehow, its mount was connected to the mechanism that pulled the door into the open position. This design at least avoids that.

And, of course, that was in the days before front ramps. Those buses didn't have lifts, but standard for places like NY and Detroit was the lift at the much wider back door.

[jajuan]

• The picture wasn't clear enough for me to come to the conclusion about the windows. Too much reflection in the window area.
• As far as loading, if it goes on 877/888, it will load northbound only at the Harvey TC, Blue Island terminal, Homewood Park and Ride,or back lot of Pace South Holland. Only issue is how it would do on the return trip in DuPage County. Similarly, if it goes on 755/855, the only loading inbound would be at Park & Rides. It undoubtedly loads better than an MCI would, and probably unloads better than an MCI, too.
• Maybe it is more cumbersome if it has to be diverted to a local route, like the Nova Classics eventually were, but I don't know if I foresee that.

Actually Busjack that's not entirely correct about the 755 and 855. The 755 stops in Chicago are at the Pink Line, Damen/Roosevelt, Damen/Polk, Harrison/Paulina serving the new Rush Hospital complex(not shown on the posted stop brochure but 755 is listed on the shared 126 bus stop signs there), Harrison/Racine, Harrison/Halsted, and Jackson/Clinton serving Union Station. The 855 has limited stops in Chicago going NB along Clark (Cermak, Roosevelt and Polk), Dearborn (at the CTA stops serving 24, 36 and 62), Monroe (at the J14 bus stop locations) and Michigan Avenue (pretty much at all the stops where CTA's North Lake Shore express routes stop except the Grand/Michigan stop which 855 does not serve). SB in Chicago the 855 stops at each North Michigan CTA stop from Superior to Randolph (except Illinois) and at Monroe/Wabash (SE corner). So that sliding door probably isn't a good idea as others said and it does look rather ridiculous.

[Railwaymodeler]

I've ridden on RTS03s (you can guess where from the above) with the split clamshell doors, and they had problems. The main one was that if it lost air pressure the door popped open, instead of defaulted to closed. Then an interlock was activated and you went nowhere.

[Busjack]

Probably would not be too hard to change the system to default to closed. I mean redesigning it for new units anyway.

...

Tell that to the guy who was trying to get a job with Millennium. but otherwise moot.

[Railwaymodeler]

Tell that to the guy who was trying to get a job with Millennium. but otherwise moot.

I don't mean just for the RTS buses, but for any bus that uses clamshell doors. Or is the default to open an RTS-specific issue?

[qwantae]

Did you guys notice it has the windows of prototype #2010. Seems to me like the bus is made more for an BRT/expressway intermodel type station dropoff/pickup that is a straight shot. I don't know how that door is going to work on a city street. Any type of guardrail or any obstruction like a fireplug is going to be in the way of the front door. Remember when CTA had the MAN artics #7100 series, those back doors would always get caught on stuff because they opened out. That's probably the reason why we don't see doors like that anymore on CTA artics.

That could be one of reasons why CTA didn't want the normal RTS models with the slide doors especially on front so they chose the WFDs instead.

[Busjack]

That could be one of reasons why CTA didn't want the normal RTS models with the slide doors especially on front so they chose the WFDs instead.

The reason on the record was that CTA wanted a front lift, FTA said that was permissible, and it appears that there was no way it would fit in those narrow doors. Go back and read this.

Aside from what people are speculating here, NYC was able to use the conventional RTSs for 20 years.

[artthouwill]

I've ridden on RTS03s (you can guess where from the above) with the split clamshell doors, and they had problems. The main one was that if it lost air pressure the door popped open, instead of defaulted to closed. Then an interlock was activated and you went nowhere.

The other issue is that the mirror mount was funny, in that otherwise the front half would hit it. Somehow, its mount was connected to the mechanism that pulled the door into the open position. This design at least avoids that.

And, of course, that was in the days before front ramps. Those buses didn't have lifts, but standard for places like NY and Detroit was the lift at the much wider back door.

Any bus that loses sufficient air pressure will have its doors open, or a better word would be "unlock". This tends to happen when the air pressure drops below 80 PSI. Without air pressure, you have no doors, and more importantly, braking ability is compromised.

I drove RTS buses with the clamshell doors and have never had an issue with the doors hitting the mirrors. Tthe door was too small to make contact with them (the big mirror AND the convex mirror)..

Again, as the single sliding door on these new Eldos go back, because it is a single unit (which has to be wide enough to accomodate a wheelchair), great care must be taken to make sure the front wheels are straight at best or worst case scenario turned slightly to the left to avoid the doors from hitting the wheels and knocking the door off track. VanHool C and T model coaches have these types of doors here. Setra does too here

[Busjack]

Any bus that loses sufficient air pressure will have its doors open, or a better word would be "unlock".

The distinction was, at least on the bus I rode, was that the doors flopped open.

On the type of doors typical of CTA and Pace buses, they would unlock, but wouldn't move.

And your SETRA link doesn't work.

[jajuan]

That could be one of reasons why CTA didn't want the normal RTS models with the slide doors especially on front so they chose the WFDs instead.

CTA didn't want the typical RTS slide door variant because they specifically mandated that the wheelchair lift be at the front of the bus rather than the rear like the other models. And the reason behind that was CTA didn't want to deviate from its policy that all passengers pay their fare at the farebox at the front of the bus when boarding.

[artthouwill]

The distinction was, at least on the bus I rode, was that the doors flopped open.

On the type of doors typical of CTA and Pace buses, they would unlock, but wouldn't move.

And your SETRA link doesn't work.

I've relinked it. It works now.

The "flopping" is the result of the design. On our CTA and Pace buses, the doors open inward, thus there is no place for the doors to go unless you push (from the inside) or pull (from the outside).. On the RTS, wnen the air is released, the doors swing out. There is even an "air dump" valve located near the driver whereas you can "dump" the air from the front doors even if the the bus has full PSI. This allows the driver to manually open and close the doors and renders the door service handle that opens both front and rear doors to be rendered useless while the air dump valve is engaged. On OTR buses, there are similar push or pull mechanisms to release the air for the luggage compartment doors.. On the buses with the single slide door, when the air is rerleased, the door will unlock and, in most cases as with the RTS doors, should only open slighlty. If they violently open, then either it is a windy day, or a malfunction in the system .

[Busjack]

I've relinked it. It works now.

Jawohl.

It looks as though the door doesn't open completely flat against the side of the bus; there might be enough clearance from that point to the tire. I would also guess that there would be an interlock if the door were to hit the tire.

...

The "flopping" is the result of the design. ....

That was the point I was trying to make. I assume that there was some sort of malfunction on the particular bus.

[artthouwill]

Probably would not be too hard to change the system to default to closed. I mean redesigning it for new units anyway.

May be my imagination, but it looks as though there is more space between the doorframe and the windshield than on an RTS. Clamshell doors may not be as big of a problem for mirror mount then.

True. This being a lowfloor, that should not be as much of a problem. If the doors break and default to closed, I would assume there is a manual opener, so if a wheelchair passenger is aboard, the ramp can still be deployed. Wonder how this unit handles door closing in the event of a mechanical failure?

Being a low floor, it would be as simple as dumping the air to manually open the door, then manually pulling up and folding out the ramp.

It appears Pace buses have an interlock feature that prevents the bus from moving with the front doors open, and will stop the bus on a dime (if bus is moving at a slow speed) if the door opens. I would imagine these new Eldos will have the same feature. I don't know if the interlock can be bypassed if the doors are in manual mode, but I would imagine that it could be if for no other reason than to be able to get the bus somewhere safely in an emergency situation. Other than that, driving a bus with those type doors on manual mode would be quite dangerous and unwise.

[Busjack]

Here's the link to the Vapor page describing the 4 kinds of doors.

And a picture of a NABI BRT with this type of door.

[twyztdmynd]

Jawohl.

It looks as though the door doesn't open completely flat against the side of the bus; there might be enough clearance from that point to the tire. I would also guess that there would be an interlock if the door were to hit the tire.

That was the point I was trying to make. I assume that there was some sort of malfunction on the particular bus.

My experience with driving VanHool OTR's (C2045) is the door, while remaining parallel, swings out/rearward leaving about an 8" gap to frame. I, Once, rubbed the tire on the door while swinging closer to the curb for Seniors at Hollywood Casino. No interlock. No damage. Just a brief lesson in common sense.

[artthouwill]

Did you guys notice it has the windows of prototype #2010. Seems to me like the bus is made more for an BRT/expressway intermodel type station dropoff/pickup that is a straight shot. I don't know how that door is going to work on a city street. Any type of guardrail or any obstruction like a fireplug is going to be in the way of the front door. Remember when CTA had the MAN artics #7100 series, those back doors would always get caught on stuff because they opened out. That's probably the reason why we don't see doors like that anymore on CTA artics.

Upon further review, it does look like the flush mount windows from Pace 2010. What I find interesting was the bus #6385. I know that sometimes buses arrive here out of sequential order, but it is very possible that the expresses will be numbered #6385 - 6399, and any subsequent deliveries of Eldos could start at 6400.

[Busjack]

Upon further review, it does look like the flush mount windows from Pace 2010. What I find interesting was the bus #6385. I know that sometimes buses arrive here out of sequential order, but it is very possible that the expresses will be numbered #6385 - 6399, and any subsequent deliveries of Eldos could start at 6400.

Just because some bus showed up on tour somewhere doesn't mean anything about all the numbering.

What about this series starting at 6325? Remember that?

[artthouwill]

Just because some bus showed up on tour somewhere doesn't mean anything about all the numbering.

What about this series starting at 6325? Remember that?

I said it was possible. I also said that I know that buses can arrive out of sequence.

Upon further review, it does look like the flush mount windows from Pace 2010. What I find interesting was the bus #6385. I know that sometimes buses arrive here out of sequential order, but it is very possible that the expresses will be numbered #6385 - 6399, and any subsequent deliveries of Eldos could start at 6400.

That leaves open the possibility that the Expresses could start at 6377 through 6391. I stand by my post.