More New Flyers

[Tcmetro]

AFAIK, Seattle has recieved DE60LF, DE60LFR, and DE60LFA buses off of this order. I would imagine the Chicago buses would be of the LFR variety.

[Busjack]

It's true. And, yes, Busjack, I have a link (Word Doc, see item A-3).

Thanks.

At least this is consistent with what I said before that there should be some sign of action on the Durbin grants, with options being the more obvious course than bidding it out.

But just as CTA didn't get BRTs even though it said it exercised WMATA options for the 58 stimulus buses, the only way I see CTA getting diesel buses is if someone suddenly figured out that the capital money that exists goes a bit further in buying $660K per bus than $900K per bus. The $80 million supposed price tag in the agenda only slightly indicates that.

And, like the WMATA scenario, the agenda only says "assignment," not "exercise." So, what gets ordered needs to be seen.

And King County Metro changed its mind about the artics in part because they are recently in litigation with New Flyer (which may still be ongoing). As such, King County Metro may change to a different manufacturer for future artics.

That don't sound gouda.

Also, I know where someone can pick up about 500 Compobus options. :lol:

[RJL6000]

That don't sound gouda.

Also, I know where someone can pick up about 500 Compobus options.

I take back some of what I stated in my previous post that you quoted. King County Metro actually placed an order for more than 800 of the New Flyers - but they decided that they didn't need more than 700-ish new buses.

[ChicagoNova]

I wonder if these new artics will have the same seating pattern as those of 2008.

[jajuan]

For 77th Garage, don't forget about #79.

No I didn't forget. I just used the 3 and 4 as just two examples of busy routes assigned to 77th. :lol:

[jajuan]

I could imagine a scenario where the.33 hybrids could go to NP, with NPs lowest numbered artics going to 103rd. The diesel artics would then possibly go to 77th. This current mayoral regime has been less than forthcoming about everything, so it remains to be seen what the city and CTA will do concerning gthe.south side Red Line. Since something must be done, I don't forsee an immediate retiring of.any Novas, save for the ones in an absolute deplorable condition until after the south side Red is repaired. 77th will certainty have the room after scrapping the 7500s. And is in a prime position to take over the 9 or 49 from 74th for any so called BRT service along Ashland or Western should that ever come to fruition. When the Novas do begin retirement, 77th has the oldest ones anyway. The only way I see Chicago Ave garage getting any artics is if.they get the last of the hybrids or hand me downs fron NP or 103rd. Yet we are still a ways off and.CTA has been known to surprise us, so we will wait amd see.

And let's remember this isn't necessarily set in stone. It was the CTA itself after all that was a main source of info regarding the infamous up to 900 articulated buses scenario and we know where that went.

[Busjack]

And let's remember this isn't necessarily set in stone. It was the CTA itself after all that was a main source of info regarding the infamous up to 900 articulated buses scenario and we know where that went.

Well not so much CTA as New Flyer. The only thing CTA posted (of which I know) was the RFP* and probably the agenda item. New Flyer was the one that claimed that they had the contract, then claimed they were going to start production, then stated that they didn't have the contract, and then revealed that there were some shells to sell.

My view on the "set in stone" is based on that CTA miraculously already had 58 options when ARRA passed, and then said they were from WMATA. On the other hand, Pace said from the original award of the ElDo contract that it already had options for up to 222, 57 of which apparently hadn't been exercised at the time of ARRA, and 223 were eventually acquired.**

________

*Talking about Seattle and LA peddling options, guess what would have happened if CTA actually had given Notice to Proceed on the first installment of the 900 .

**Close enough math for government work, although I'm still not sure of the status of 2766.

[See Tea Eh]

But just as CTA didn't get BRTs even though it said it exercised WMATA options for the 58 stimulus buses, the only way I see CTA getting diesel buses is if someone suddenly figured out that the capital money that exists goes a bit further in buying $660K per bus than $900K per bus. The $80 million supposed price tag in the agenda only slightly indicates that.

I'll go with CTA's press release from yesterday that says they're getting 67 diesel buses. Don't know why you feel the need to over-analyze everything when the answer is plainly presented right there.

[Sam92]

And let's remember this isn't necessarily set in stone. It was the CTA itself after all that was a main source of info regarding the infamous up to 900 articulated buses scenario and we know where that went.

I'm pretty sure I spotted #4225 on randolph a few weeks ago.... :P

[Busjack]

I'll go with CTA's press release from yesterday that says they're getting 67 diesel buses. Don't know why you feel the need to over-analyze everything when the answer is plainly presented right there.

Sorry, as a couple of my posts indicate that I didn't have the time to search the CTA site thoroughly, so thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Of course, various Press Releases and President's Reports don't prove that things are set in stone, either.

If one wants to over analyze, and if one wants to believe a Durbin Press Release, the hybrids come from that money and the diesels are funded by something else.

[sw4400]

According to the Press Release, the 100 Artics being ordered will break down as such:

-33 Hybrid Diesel-Electric Buses

-67 Clean Diesel Buses

Looking at available number series for buses out there... this is what I think the numbers will be(speculation, nothing more)

-the DE60LF( R )'s: 4300-4332

-the D60LF( R )'s: 7900-7966

Now according to the CBS2Chicago story that says that these buses will be used to increase capacity on popular bus routes. I can think of several where these are badly needed...

#80 Irving Park: Westbound buses are jammed after buses pickup students at Ashland by Lakeview after dismissal-Forest Glen route

#152 Addison: Both Westbound and Eastbound buses are jammed at Western when Lane Tech lets out, also when the Cubs have home games.-Forest Glen route

#49 Western: Similar to Addison, these buses get jammed up during Lane Tech dismissals.-74th route

#77 Belmont: This route needs artics badly, especially at that Kimball Blue Line station. That or a skip Kimball Blue Line service where every OTHER bus stops at the station, then continues West/East.-Forest Glen route

There are definitely more, but these are the ones I know about that need relief. So I believe Forest Glen and 74th will definitely get some of these buses.

[Sam92]

According to the Press Release, the 100 Artics being ordered will break down as such:

-33 Hybrid Diesel-Electric Buses

-67 Clean Diesel Buses

Looking at available number series for buses out there... this is what I think the numbers will be(speculation, nothing more)

-the DE60LF( R )'s: 4300-4332

-the D60LF( R )'s: 7900-7966

Now according to the CBS2Chicago story that says that these buses will be used to increase capacity on popular bus routes. I can think of several where these are badly needed...

#80 Irving Park: Westbound buses are jammed after buses pickup students at Ashland by Lakeview after dismissal-Forest Glen route

#152 Addison: Both Westbound and Eastbound buses are jammed at Western when Lane Tech lets out, also when the Cubs have home games.-Forest Glen route

#49 Western: Similar to Addison, these buses get jammed up during Lane Tech dismissals.-74th route

#77 Belmont: This route needs artics badly, especially at that Kimball Blue Line station. That or a skip Kimball Blue Line service where every OTHER bus stops at the station, then continues West/East.-Forest Glen route

There are definitely more, but these are the ones I know about that need relief. So I believe Forest Glen and 74th will definitely get some of these buses.

Except 74th can't lift a 60ft Artic.... Just the 55ft ones that were around at the time it was built so that garage is out of the question. The 77 is in a position to get a few artics in the rush actually, I hear Kedzie does trips on that route that become 151's. Maybe having Kedzie take more runs on that route could solve that. North Park handles school trips on the 152 and I often see 4000's on that route along that time as well as 4000's during cubs games

[artthouwill]

According to the Press Release, the 100 Artics being ordered will break down as such:

-33 Hybrid Diesel-Electric Buses

-67 Clean Diesel Buses

Looking at available number series for buses out there... this is what I think the numbers will be(speculation, nothing more)

-the DE60LF( R )'s: 4300-4332

-the D60LF( R )'s: 7900-7966

Now according to the CBS2Chicago story that says that these buses will be used to increase capacity on popular bus routes. I can think of several where these are badly needed...

#80 Irving Park: Westbound buses are jammed after buses pickup students at Ashland by Lakeview after dismissal-Forest Glen route

#152 Addison: Both Westbound and Eastbound buses are jammed at Western when Lane Tech lets out, also when the Cubs have home games.-Forest Glen route

#49 Western: Similar to Addison, these buses get jammed up during Lane Tech dismissals.-74th route

#77 Belmont: This route needs artics badly, especially at that Kimball Blue Line station. That or a skip Kimball Blue Line service where every OTHER bus stops at the station, then continues West/East.-Forest Glen route

There are definitely more, but these are the ones I know about that need relief. So I believe Forest Glen and 74th will definitely get some of these buses.

[/quote

As mentioned in other posts, 74th doesn't have the proper lifts for 60ft buses, so scratch them. As for those aforementiined North side routes, certainly NP could possibly add school tripper runs using artics before sending the buses downtown for rush hour service. Certainly the greater need would be on the south side.l

[Sam92]

another thing....are the 30 hybrids announced last year going to be in the same series and model as the 33 hybrids coming from seattle this fall?

[RJL6000]

another thing....are the 30 hybrids announced last year going to be in the same series and model as the 33 hybrids coming from seattle this fall?

That is an unknown at this point.

[Guest]

So it looks as if Nova 6400 to 6500 will be pulled from service by this time next year.

[ChicagoNova]

So it looks as if Nova 6400 to 6500 will be pulled from service by this time next year.

I can imagine that already.

[Busjack]

So it looks as if Nova 6400 to 6500 will be pulled from service by this time next year.

As past history indicates, not necessarily in that order.

As BusHunter documented, and was the case, they were not received in fleet number order, and basically all up through 6708 were received in the same time frame.

Update: Plus, of course, whether any of the wrecks listed by him can go off their financial leasebacks and can be considered disposed under the 12 year FTA useful life guideline. If not, several buses that otherwise can be retired won't be.

One might guess that the worse ones will be pulled first. However, one probably can also assume that the ones that were at 77th are the worst, at least mileage wise.

[MRCTA]

I think this is a major step for the CTA, Seattle Metro & New Flyer, don't you think so?

[Busjack]

I think this is a major step for the CTA, Seattle Metro & New Flyer, don't you think so?

No, if anything, more of the same (cf. 7300s and especially 4000s). Especially not for Seattle, which could have just refused to exercise the 100 options, or New Flyer, which probably could have charged more if the 100 buses were put out to bid.

Now, it would be a big deal if tomorrow CTA had a definitive announcement about replacing the other 375 or so Novas, as well as to build at least two new garages to hold the same number fleet of bigger buses.

[trainman8119]

... as well as to build at least two new garages to hold the same number fleet of bigger buses.

I'd be willing to bet the geniuses at Lake Street don't realize you need more room to store bigger buses.

I realized another faux pas with the artics and that is after being on them a couple of times this week is the fact that when you exit through the back doors, you are exiting with a hazard since the back end doesn't get to the curb. So, you are jumping down and then jumping back up. Also, quite often you are dodging some kind of car or truck being cut off to get to the curb.

[artthouwill]

According to New Flyers website the CTA purchased these buses for fleet expansion, though it did mention some of the buses would replace some Novas.

[MRCTA]

This was on the news recently

[BusHunter]

As past history indicates, not necessarily in that order.

As BusHunter documented, and was the case, they were not received in fleet number order, and basically all up through 6708 were received in the same time frame.

Update: Plus, of course, whether any of the wrecks listed by him can go off their financial leasebacks and can be considered disposed under the 12 year FTA useful life guideline. If not, several buses that otherwise can be retired won't be.

One might guess that the worse ones will be pulled first. However, one probably can also assume that the ones that were at 77th are the worst, at least mileage wise.

This list I put up leads me to a question. If the first Novas were received in Dec 2000 and as stated by the CTA the new artics arrive in the fall, then technically wouldn't there be a problem retiring buses that are not yet 12 years old. (unless they are counting from date of manufacture) For that matter post #6708 buses cannot be retired yet at all as those came in around 4/2002. As far as NF's comment that this is for fleet expansion, I don't see how that can be done without a new garage unless it is a small expansion. Maybe that conclusion is based on CTA not being able to retire buses maybe.

[See Tea Eh]

This list I put up leads me to a question. If the first Novas were received in Dec 2000 and as stated by the CTA the new artics arrive in the fall, then technically wouldn't there be a problem retiring buses that are not yet 12 years old. (unless they are counting from date of manufacture) For that matter post #6708 buses cannot be retired yet at all as those came in around 4/2002. As far as NF's comment that this is for fleet expansion, I don't see how that can be done without a new garage unless it is a small expansion. Maybe that conclusion is based on CTA not being able to retire buses maybe.

Given that there are almost 500 Novas in the fleet, (470-something, if you take out the few that have been wrecked), an order for 100 buses won't come close to replacing the fleet, so I don't think we need to worry about the 6700s/6800s not being old enough to retire yet.

Given that the buses are part of an existing option contract, New Flyer probably had the delivery positions already slotted, so it makes more sense for CTA to get the buses then (even if a few months early), rather than renegotiate the deal with New Flyer, possibly at a higher cost, just so they can arrive a few months later and be technically after the Novas turn 12.

On a different note, I read this press release from the New Flyer website, and it contains a curious misstatement at the end:

The 33 new hybrids will expand the number of diesel-electric buses to 328. The CTA operates 1,780 buses.

The actual number of hybrids in the CTA fleet will be 261 (208 existing artics + 20 40-footers + 33 new ones). I'm sure some of the usual conspiracy theorists on here will try to read more into that statement than is there (with everything from speculating that CTA has 67 other hybrids on order somewhere that they're keeping secret from us, to accusations that everybody involved is incompetent and doesn't know what the inside of a bus looks like, to it being Obama's fault somehow). I think whatever press agent wrote the release probably took the 228 existing fleet, and added 100 for the total order rather than the 33 that were just hybrids. However, if anyone has their own speculation, I'll be entertained to read it.