jajuan Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Just saw Kevin's reporting that they're going NOVA so we can just scratch what I was pondering on Axxess and D40LFRs. And most of us were indeed right that it was going to be either NOVA or New Flyer, and this time it was NOVA that one out. That's quite a setup that they're replacing NOVAs for NOVAs. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Oh no I don't mean they pulled the plug. I was thinking maybe they're considering staying very close to that 50 minimum. And, after reading both posts, I realize I made an error in metaphor. I meant to say that they didn't pull the "on switch." In short what I meant was that CTA could have given someone the minimum order for 50 buses today, too, but did not. Whether it is because CTA doesn't have the garage space, it doesn't know how many hybrids or diesels it wants, or there are still unresolved issues with Nova's and NF's bids is not disclosed at the moment. I bet, though, the wait isn't for the Millennium RTS Extreme artic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 And, after reading both posts, I realize I made an error in metaphor. I meant to say that they didn't pull the "on switch." In short what I meant was that CTA could have given someone the minimum order for 50 buses today, too, but did not. Whether it is because CTA doesn't have the garage space, it doesn't know how many hybrids or diesels it wants, or there are still unresolved issues with Nova's and NF's bids is not disclosed at the moment. I bet, though, the wait isn't for the Millennium RTS Extreme artic. As if Millenium had a chance for reasons that both you and I pointed out to Mr. East. All it took was correctly reading the RFPs and stipulations of what CTA was saying it wanted outside of the RFP documentation, not to mention the big NABI fiasco with having gone with an unproven bus model and have that blow up in their faces, to know it would have been wishful thinking on Millenium's part despite CTA having had RTS buses under TMC's construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 , if NOVA Bus, LFS(the ones with the fin on the end of the bus) Since Nova got the contract, I looked and finally found what I didn't on the past two trips, i.e. that Nova has redesigned the rear of their bus. So, while they'll still have a rear window, the vent will not be as pronounced as before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 So, while they'll still have a rear window, the vent will not be as pronounced as before. The latest interior design allows for the option of no rear window. TTMG's blog has a photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 The latest interior design allows for the option of no rear window. TTMG's blog has a photo. Your link to blog triggered my memory that I did see online that NOVA had built a NOVA artic with no rear window for NYC's MTA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.cta85 Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Lol wow cta went with nova I see quite surprising I must say but I think that's cool to do its good to know there will still be Novas around after the originals are retired. Even cooler the new versions don't look that different from our current versions good job cta! But I would still like to see the D40LFR buses roaming the city lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 The latest interior design allows for the option of no rear window. TTMG's blog has a photo. Ewww. It is hard to tell from the photo how many step ups it takes to get to the rear seats. Now the question comes back to the 1990 one, i.e. does CTA still want a rear window if it can get one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 The CTA will probably keep the bus stock flush with each other, so I would look for them to order LFS buses with no rear window. Powertrains for the NOVA LFS 40' diesel models is the Cummins ISL 8.9 280 HP Engine paired with a ZF Ecolife(6 Sp.), Allison B400R(6 Sp.) or Voith D864.5E(4 Sp.) Transmission. If they go with NOVA Bus for the articulated buses, they'll be the longest in CTA history as bumper to bumper, they are measured at 62' long. I would guess the NOVA LFS prototype would be delivered to CTA between October, 2013 and January, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 ... Powertrains for the NOVA LFS 40' diesel models is the Cummins ISL 8.9 280 HP Engine paired with a ZF Ecolife(6 Sp.), Allison B400R(6 Sp.) or Voith D864.5E(4 Sp.) Transmission. ... I would guess the NOVA LFS prototype would be delivered to CTA between October, 2013 and January, 2014 Nova has on its site that they were working with Cummins on an EPA 2013 ISL9 engine for a 40 foot diesel bus. As far as ZF, there were the prior Q&A, at least involving NF, that the ZF didn't meet specs. And, as I pointed out earlier, the Press Release said "following delivery of a prototype in December with full-production expected to begin in February 2014." So you don't have to speculate about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Nova has on its site that they were working with Cummins on an EPA 2013 ISL9 engine for a 40 foot diesel bus. As far as ZF, there were the prior Q&A, at least involving NF, that the ZF didn't meet specs. Well it's a transmission option for the NOVA LFS, along with the Allison and Voith transmissions. As far as New Flyer and ZF, pace2322 said the D60LFR's have ZF transmissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 And, as I pointed out earlier, the Press Release said "following delivery of a prototype in December with full-production expected to begin in February 2014." So you don't have to speculate about that. What a treat for people who like buses, like our chicagobus.org slogan says... :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Since we can now turn to speculation about the 60 foot bus component of the program, I found this video of a Nova artic's traction in the snow interesting. At least it reminded me of a TV story (I guess now 9 years ago) about one NABI artic stuck in the snow on Michigan Ave. at Grant Park being pushed by another, not that I thought it was possible. And I thought the bus was going to whack the car backing out of the driveway. Et pardonnez mon français. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artthouwill Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Not sure how I feel about Nova winning this bid other than the fleet not being totally vanilla with all NFs. When I was in the Twin Cities, the thing I hated about Metro was it was all Gillig.Phantoms, save some NF artics. Would be nice if RTA could bid buses for both CTA and Pace...we know the story. Now that Archer garage property has been sold, is there really a need to bid for any more artics? Maybe they can house some at 123 N Racine or the CTA property near Lake and Pulaski or the facility on Division near Goose Island. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 ... Now that Archer garage property has been sold, is there really a need to bid for any more artics? Maybe they can house some at 123 N Racine or the CTA property near Lake and Pulaski or the facility on Division near Goose Island. I would think that the need for them is independent of whether there currently is a garage for them. Obviously, Archer wasn't going to be it. Goose Island would seem to make sense from a downtown deadhead angle, but there has been nothing official said about any new garage. It doesn't look like any would be coming before 2015, for the reason jajuan said or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geneking7320 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Does anyone know if these Novas will have rear facing seats? Imagine rear facing seats and no rear window. Gene King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.cta85 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Does anyone know if these Novas will have rear facing seats? Imagine rear facing seats and no rear window. Gene King According to the press release article cta said there will be no rear facing seats on the new order. "Nova Bus has made several changes to their LFS bus model since CTA’s original order over twelve years ago. Most significantly, an updated engine placement eliminates the awkward interior layout at the rear of the bus. Unlike the current Nova models, the new buses will not contain any rear-facing seats. CTA explicitly prohibited rear-facing seats during the procurement process". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geneking7320 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 According to the press release article cta said there will be no rear facing seats on the new order. "Nova Bus has made several changes to their LFS bus model since CTA’s original order over twelve years ago. Most significantly, an updated engine placement eliminates the awkward interior layout at the rear of the bus. Unlike the current Nova models, the new buses will not contain any rear-facing seats. CTA explicitly prohibited rear-facing seats during the procurement process". Great! Thanks for the update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.cta85 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Great! Thanks for the update. No problem lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I am really surprised they went with Nova. (That must have been one h@ll of a sales job) I am really impressed with how the NF's age. I am concerned these Novas will age just like the rest, and become slow dinosaurs. I think they took a step backwards today. They'll probably see the older NF's outperforming, the newer nova buses. But maybe there was an incentive to use Nova because parts off the older buses may be compatible with the new ones. That will save money. I guess we're going to find out if Nova has improved on their product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoNova Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I am really surprised they went with Nova. (That must have been one h@ll of a sales job) I am really impressed with how the NF's age. I am concerned these Novas will age just like the rest, and become slow dinosaurs. I think they took a step backwards today. They'll probably see the older NF's outperforming, the newer nova buses. But maybe there was an incentive to use Nova because parts off the older buses may be compatible with the new ones. That will save money. I guess we're going to find out if Nova has improved on their product. My heart was kinda jumping when I found out that CTA decided to go with Nova for the 40' buses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I am really surprised they went with Nova. (That must have been one h@ll of a sales job) I am really impressed with how the NF's age. I am concerned these Novas will age just like the rest, and become slow dinosaurs. I think they took a step backwards today. They'll probably see the older NF's outperforming, the newer nova buses. But maybe there was an incentive to use Nova because parts off the older buses may be compatible with the new ones. That will save money. I guess we're going to find out if Nova has improved on their product. Mechanically and cosmetically, no. The buses do differ in both categories(the 6400-Series has Cummins ISC engines and the TBD-Series will have Cummins ISL9 engines theoretically according to the article Busjack linked to in an earlier post, although if that can't be ironed out by the time the order starts to be built which I would guess would be late Summer/early Fall 2013, they'll probably have the paired Cummins ISL 8.9 280 HP engines, as what it listed in the LFS diesel spec sheet on the NOVA Bus website currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I am really surprised they went with Nova. (That must have been one h@ll of a sales job) I am really impressed with how the NF's age. I am concerned these Novas will age just like the rest, and become slow dinosaurs. I haven't noticed any difference with the NOVA LFS speed since I first started riding them when they first came to Forest Glen in 2001-2002. They seem to have the same pickup as back then. What might seem different between the New Flyer D40LF's and the current NOVA LFS is most likely powertrains... let's look at them... Cummins ISC(NOVA LFS 6400-Series) HP: 240-330 Peak Torque lb-ft @ RPM: 660-950 @ 1300 Governed Speed RPM: 2200-2600 Cummins ISM(New Flyer D40LF 1000-Series)(1000-1629) HP: 280-500 Peak Torque lb-ft @ RPM: 1150-1550 @ 1200 Governed Speed RPM: 2100 Cummins ISL(New Flyer D40LF 1000-Series)(1630-2029) HP: 350-400 Peak Torque lb-ft @ RPM: 1050-1200 @ 1300 Governed Speed RPM: 2200 Source As you see, the ISM and ISL series Cummins engines have more HP and torque than the ISC series Cummins, although the governed speed can top out more on the ISC than the ISM or ISL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 They are horribly slow when you turn on the AC. Some of the older ones like at 77th and 74th are slower than the FG ones. The FG ones to me seem better maintained. Some FG operators have told me FG has the best day to day maintenance for Novas, at least that's the rumor. It's no wonder some went to 77th recently. If 40 foot Novas have this problem, I'd hate to see what the 60 footers do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Subchat has some sales/demonstration videos via youtube, which shows off the Nova redesign interior and all of it's optional interior appointments. This will be similar to what arrives here. It does address the seating issues mentioned above as well as new innovations not seen in a transit bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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