4300/4330-series DE60LF/D60LF - Updates

[ChicagoNova]

Has anyone seen 4326 or 4345?

[renardo870]

4326 is on the #6 from 103rd.

[RJL6000]

4366 4349 & 4365 driving as 79th St going west.

4366 only this afternoon shows up on BusTracker - and (as I expected) on the #79.

[ChicagoNova]

4366 only this afternoon shows up on BusTracker - and (as I expected) on the #79.

Along with 4367.

[RJL6000]

During the first four days of 4300s being in service on the 77th Garage routes, it seems like the hybrids (4322 and 4332) are used exclusively on 79th Street thus far. All of the artics used on Cottage Grove so far have been the clean diesels.

[trainman8119]

My prediction of the artics being used on two of 77th's most heavily patronized routes came true.

For the record, the 4300s at 103rd are used primarily on the #6 although other types of buses (4000s and even 40-footers) are occasionally found on that route and a few 4300s found their way on some of 103rd's other routes. Kedzie's route assignment of the 4300s is less clear-cut.

Finally, add one more: 4332 is also on the #79.

Actually there are as many 4300s on the 14 as there are wrapped 4000s, I see them daily. Now there was a waste of time and money on that project...and they want to do more ! ho hum

[renardo870]

4332 was on the #4 Cottage Grove 7472 was the run number...4354 also was on the #4 run 7429...

[qwantae]

Actually there are as many 4300s on the 14 as there are wrapped 4000s, I see them daily. Now there was a waste of time and money on that project...and they want to do more ! ho hum

That tells me why yesterday late evening, I saw an unknown 4000 wrapped Jump bus working #28 at 47th/ Lake Park turnaround while I was on Electric Metra going Southbound.

[Sam92]

That tells me why yesterday late evening, I saw an unknown 4000 wrapped Jump bus working #28 at 47th/ Lake Park turnaround while I was on Electric Metra going Southbound.

Do they still plan on using 4300-4332 for the J14 as mentioned by others earlier? Cause maybe they are waiting till after the Dan Ryan project when the buses probably won't be constantly moving around so much and then they can put the wraps and other equipment on them. Cause as I mentioned earlier, the powerpoint I posted in the Dan Ryan forum mentioned focusing hybrids for bus service in the project area. So it could be possible that sometime between the Wells bridge project and tje Ryan that the clean diesel artics may get sent to NP and K in return for some 4000's. Plus a 103rd operator spotted a 900 pulling in so Kedzie may be sending its 800s and 900s as well.

[sw4400]

Do they still plan on using 4300-4332 for the J14 as mentioned by others earlier? Cause maybe they are waiting till after the Dan Ryan project when the buses probably won't be constantly moving around so much and then they can put the wraps and other equipment on them. Cause as I mentioned earlier, the powerpoint I posted in the Dan Ryan forum mentioned focusing hybrids for bus service in the project area. So it could be possible that sometime between the Wells bridge project and tje Ryan that the clean diesel artics may get sent to NP and K in return for some 4000's. Plus a 103rd operator spotted a 900 pulling in so Kedzie may be sending its 800s and 900s as well.

A 60" bus is a 60" bus, whether it's clean diesel or a hybrid. It doesn't make sense that the CTA is focusing a certain type of articulated bus for the Red Line Ryan shutdown and North Park and Kedzie will get some of the 4333-Series for some of their 4000-Series Hybrids. As long as it gets you from point A to point B, that should be good enough.

[Busjack]

A 60" bus is a 60" bus, whether it's clean diesel or a hybrid. It doesn't make sense that the CTA is focusing a certain type of articulated bus for the Red Line Ryan shutdown and North Park and Kedzie will get some of the 4333-Series for some of their 4000-Series Hybrids. As long as it gets you from point A to point B, that should be good enough.

I was thinking that there may be maintenance issues in the garages. On the other hand, no garage is entirely hybrid.

[Sam92]

I was thinking that there may be maintenance issues in the garages. On the other hand, no garage is entirely hybrid.

Am I the only one who actually read the powerpoint? I don't know how to move quotes from an outside source to here but, the powerpoint indeed mentioned use of hybrids for the service for environmental reasons (air quality). I didn't just wake up and pull this from my @$$ people for no reason. Thats why I went and posted the powerpoint on the Dan Ryan forum pointing out that this was mentioned along with the repairs on the connector. I have my concrete evidence to back up what I'm saying. I don't recall seeing any actual evidence to counter. :P

[Busjack]

Am I the only one who actually read the powerpoint?

I had originally posted something here about other PowerPoints with misinformation, but now I'm not sue to what you are referring.

Is it the pdf in this post? That seems to be the environmental impact statement, but the usual perfunctory CTA showing that it minimally met certain requirements. It appears to be a searchable pdf, but search for the term "hybrid" comes up empty.

Since I only quickly scanned that one before for the point you made about the ramp to the Orange Line being rehabilitated,* maybe I missed something. If so, point it out directly. Thanks.

P.S. Since most of it appears to be text (there are a few scans in there, such as of the comment cards), you can simply select, copy, and paste, like any other word processing document. I confirmed that that works on that pdf.

_

*A search for "orange" came up with two matches, so that point definitely is there, and searchable.

[jajuan]

Do they still plan on using 4300-4332 for the J14 as mentioned by others earlier? Cause maybe they are waiting till after the Dan Ryan project when the buses probably won't be constantly moving around so much and then they can put the wraps and other equipment on them. Cause as I mentioned earlier, the powerpoint I posted in the Dan Ryan forum mentioned focusing hybrids for bus service in the project area. So it could be possible that sometime between the Wells bridge project and tje Ryan that the clean diesel artics may get sent to NP and K in return for some 4000's. Plus a 103rd operator spotted a 900 pulling in so Kedzie may be sending its 800s and 900s as well.

It's doubtful that anything other than hybrid artics will be used as someone else made the point that CTA specifically wants to use articulated buses for the shuttles. As I mentioned before the 900 in question was likely a loan, nothing more as both 800s and 900s still appear regularly on the 12 among other Kedzie routes.

[sw4400]

Am I the only one who actually read the powerpoint? I don't know how to move quotes from an outside source to here but, the powerpoint indeed mentioned use of hybrids for the service for environmental reasons (air quality). I didn't just wake up and pull this from my @$$ people for no reason. Thats why I went and posted the powerpoint on the Dan Ryan forum pointing out that this was mentioned along with the repairs on the connector. I have my concrete evidence to back up what I'm saying. I don't recall seeing any actual evidence to counter.

Well, I don't have Powerpoint to read these documents. I'm not knocking what you're saying, Sam92, you read the Powerpoint document, I didn't. What puzzles me is the CTA's decision to make this an all-Hybrid Shuttle service rather than just use whatever 77th and 103rd has in stock(which is where I would guess these Shuttles will come from). A bus is a bus, IMO. Whether it's a Hybrid or one that runs on ULSD like all the Diesel buses do. It's just a waste of moving buses from North Park and Kedzie to 77th and 103rd just because of the powertrains.

If they were so against the Clean Diesel Articulateds, why order them? Why not just 100 DE60LFR rather than 33 DE60LFR and 67 D60LFR?

[renardo870]

4313, 4319, 4345, 4369, 4371, 4372, 4373, 4374, and 4376 sitting along the fence on 79th St.

[Busjack]

Well, I don't have Powerpoint to read these documents. ...

If they were so against the Clean Diesel Articulateds, why order them? Why not just 100 DE60LFR rather than 33 DE60LFR and 67 D60LFR?

You don't need Powerpoint if the documents were saved as pdf.

However, as I noted above, it is not clear to me to what Sam was referring. Sam....

The other question has been answered before. I assume now that it is rhetorical.

[BusHunter]

You don't need Powerpoint if the documents were saved as pdf.

However, as I noted above, it is not clear to me to what Sam was referring. Sam....

The other question has been answered before. I assume now that it is rhetorical.

I don't see anything either. Can Sam92 give us a page number where this info exists. I still say someone at CTA goofed. I doubt CTA is going to say oops we pulled out a clean diesel, take that back to the garage. Like sw4400 says a bus is a bus. It's like when they stated the #J14 was going to be ran with all hybrids. Well the buses they have ran so far says to the contrary.

[Sam92]

I don't see anything either. Can Sam92 give us a page number where this info exists. I still say someone at CTA goofed. I doubt CTA is going to say oops we pulled out a clean diesel, take that back to the garage. Like sw4400 says a bus is a bus. It's like when they stated the #J14 was going to be ran with all hybrids. Well the buses they have ran so far says to the contrary.

Towards the bottom of page 20 continuing into page 21.

" improvements. The proposed action only includes construction activities that would be expected to increase air emissions temporarily and the additional buses that will be providing shuttle service are Green Buses with reduced emissions. Air emissions generated by these sources would have minimal impacts on overall air quality and would be negligible".

Thats the direct quote

[Busjack]

Towards the bottom of page 20 continuing into page 21.

" improvements. The proposed action only includes construction activities that would be expected to increase air emissions temporarily and the additional buses that will be providing shuttle service are Green Buses with reduced emissions. Air emissions generated by these sources would have minimal impacts on overall air quality and would be negligible".

Thats the direct quote

Thanks.

At least that explains why Control-F "hybrid" had no results.

However, this is all perfunctory. Aside from that CTA is not going to bring back the "Big Green" Twin Coach propanes, the new diesels are also denoted as "clean." And since I have noted the amazing coincidence that CTA says it needs 100 buses for this project and is getting 100 buses at least meeting 2013 EPA requirements, it is probably not retiring much (including the NF smokestack that supposedly had to meet 2007 EPA requirements), so while emissions overall might not be going up much, they aren't going to be reduced, either.

In short, CTA had to tell the feds something.*

___________

*Including that they held the 3 community meetings and gave nonanswers at them, Apparently, though, that was the source of their "answer" to "what did you do in 2005?" And the source of "we're talking to Metra." We now know how that came out.

[artthouwill]

Towards the bottom of page 20 continuing into page 21.

" improvements. The proposed action only includes construction activities that would be expected to increase air emissions temporarily and the additional buses that will be providing shuttle service are Green Buses with reduced emissions. Air emissions generated by these sources would have minimal impacts on overall air quality and would be negligible".

Thats the direct quote

So a cleam diesel is not a "green bus?" I infer that all series of artics and possibly the 800s and 900s are candidates for the shuttles.

[BusHunter]

Towards the bottom of page 20 continuing into page 21.

" improvements. The proposed action only includes construction activities that would be expected to increase air emissions temporarily and the additional buses that will be providing shuttle service are Green Buses with reduced emissions. Air emissions generated by these sources would have minimal impacts on overall air quality and would be negligible".

Thats the direct quote

I'd say I'd have to agree with Artthouwill and Busjack. The clean diesels are labeled as "green buses" even though their not really green. It's just how New Flyer and the CTA are spinning it. Let's just say the buses are greener than there predecessor's. It's one way a company gets you to buy it's product and it makes everyone look better. There not going to sell a product that is called a belching gas consuming high emission vehicle are they?

[Busjack]

I'd say I'd have to agree with Artthouwill and Busjack. The clean diesels are labeled as "green buses" even though their not really green. (0 emissions).

The hybrids aren't either, so long as they have diesel engines. The 3 hydrogen buses have been sitting in the dead lot for about 15 years, the two battery buses haven't arrived yet, and there is still the debate about how clean the electric generation is that either splits the water to make hydrogen or charges the batteries (although the coal fired plants are apparently going out of business).

[sw4400]

The hybrids aren't either, so long as they have diesel engines. The 3 hydrogen buses have been sitting in the dead lot for about 15 years, the two battery buses haven't arrived yet, and there is still the debate about how clean the electric generation is that either splits the water to make hydrogen or charges the batteries (although the coal fired plants are apparently going out of business).

And even the Electric New Flyer Buses coming this Fall/Winter 2013 won't be 100% clean. They are supposed to have two have small diesel engines to provide heat during the winter, and who knows if this engine will also run the A/C during the summer. The exhaust needs to come out of somewhere on the bus.

[BusHunter]

The hybrids aren't either, so long as they have diesel engines. The 3 hydrogen buses have been sitting in the dead lot for about 15 years, the two battery buses haven't arrived yet, and there is still the debate about how clean the electric generation is that either splits the water to make hydrogen or charges the batteries (although the coal fired plants are apparently going out of business).

Actually If you look at the definition of "Green Vehicle", Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_vehicle it is a vehicle that achieves better emission standards than a vehicle of the same type or a vehicle that uses alternative fuels. So in stating that, with the CTA using bio fuels in their vehicles technically all vehicles are green in CTA's fleet. A zero emissions vehicle is called just that a zero emissions vehicle and is somewhat of a myth in our current technological state. Link:http://reason.com/blog/2013/03/11/the-zero-emissions-car-remains-a-myth Like the article states even though some cars are electric or hydrogen, the manufacture of electricity to power the vehicle burns more fossil fuels and in turn creates more greenhouse gases. More carbon dioxide is put into the air than a typical vehicle. So i guess it depends how you look at things.