5000-series - Updates

[RJL6000]

Hi, well this may not be anything interesting... but I did hear that Brown Line is also another line that's not going to recieve them.

With the 5000s being equipped with only amber LED signs as delivered, there is less chance of confusion if the Purple Line but not the Brown Line gets them. This means that between the Clark Junction and the subway ramp, any southbound train of 5000s with "Loop" displayed would be a Purple Line train (although there might be a remote chance of a train of 5000s being one of the "Ravenston" runs). 5000s would also make up the Red Line's entire fleet by then - but a southbound 5000-series train assigned to a Red Line run would display "95th".

[sw4400]

With the 5000s being equipped with only amber LED signs as delivered, there is less chance of confusion if the Purple Line but not the Brown Line gets them. This means that between the Clark Junction and the subway ramp, any southbound train of 5000s with "Loop" displayed would be a Purple Line train (although there might be a remote chance of a train of 5000s being one of the "Ravenston" runs). 5000s would also make up the Red Line's entire fleet by then - but a southbound 5000-series train assigned to a Red Line run would display "95th".

There is no more 'Ravenston' trains, just 'Brownage' trains. And the amber LED issue must be dealt with soon, as the 3200's will probably start to be phased out at the beginning of the year 2020(yeah, it's still a long ways off, but look how quickly 2000-2009 passed). If the CTA wanted to do early retirements of the 3200's, then that could start in 2016(25th year min. service life).

[RJL6000]

There is no more 'Ravenston' trains, just 'Brownage' trains. And the amber LED issue must be dealt with soon, as the 3200's will probably start to be phased out at the beginning of the year 2020(yeah, it's still a long ways off, but look how quickly 2000-2009 passed). If the CTA wanted to do early retirements of the 3200's, then that could start in 2016(25th year min. service life).

If the "Ravenston" has gone by the wayside, then the "Brownage" might not last much longer if the Kimball Yard is expanded to handle the cars that it currently has.

Current CTA plans call for just under half of the 2600s to be retired by the time that the delivery of the 5000s is completed. This means that there will still be a lot of 2600s left on the system even after all of the 5000s are delivered.

[Mr.cta85]

There is no more 'Ravenston' trains, just 'Brownage' trains. And the amber LED issue must be dealt with soon, as the 3200's will probably start to be phased out at the beginning of the year 2020(yeah, it's still a long ways off, but look how quickly 2000-2009 passed). If the CTA wanted to do early retirements of the 3200's, then that could start in 2016(25th year min. service life).

I think unless cta has ordered another fleet of rail cars that are eletronically trainable with the 5000s(and have enough cars to replace the remaining 26000 as as well as the 3200's) I think the 3200 series will be here alittle longer than planned because if they started retirement on the series even though they would be of age to do so, cta would be short of rail cars cause if you add the 706 cars of 5000s plus 258 3200's that wouldnt be enough cars which is 964 to replace the current number of trains which is 1190, they would still be 226 short of cars espicially since cta said they wanted to add to the current 1190 cars in service to about 1400 I believe :)

[Busjack]

With the 5000s being equipped with only amber LED signs as delivered, there is less chance of confusion if the Purple Line but not the Brown Line gets them. This means that between the Clark Junction and the subway ramp, any southbound train of 5000s with "Loop" displayed would be a Purple Line train (although there might be a remote chance of a train of 5000s being one of the "Ravenston" runs). 5000s would also make up the Red Line's entire fleet by then - but a southbound 5000-series train assigned to a Red Line run would display "95th".

If the "Ravenston" has gone by the wayside, then the "Brownage" might not last much longer if the Kimball Yard is expanded to handle the cars that it currently has.

...

At least you are missing two things that can be easily verified:

Bus Hunter pointed out that the 2012 budget says on page 49:

The 3200‐series consists of 258 rail cars, which are projected to receive a mid‐life ("D") rehabilitation. ... The overhaul will update the passenger information system with new LED destination signs and will include a new public address system.

Second, there is no way to expand the Kimball Yard unless CTA is going to condemn a huge chunk of central Albany Park. Adam Kerman pointed out that CTA wasn't going to do it as part of the New Start, and they didn't.

[BusHunter]

At least you are missing two things that can be easily verified:

Bus Hunter pointed out that the 2012 budget says on page 49:

Second, there is no way to expand the Kimball Yard unless CTA is going to condemn a huge chunk of central Albany Park. Adam Kerman pointed out that CTA wasn't going to do it as part of the New Start, and they didn't.

They could solve the loop destination sign issue by changing the destination signs to say brown loop or purple loop, although a 2 line display is harder to see/read from a distance. As far as anyone wanting to know what's happening lately on the #5000's, there's the #5000's in service and retirement dates thread. Everything I know of that's in service is in there and it's constantly being updated.

[sw4400]

That LED displays they are talking about is probably the one on the inside of the 5000-series railcars(e.g: Belmont Is Next. Doors Open On The Left At Belmont). They aren't going to replace 1,024 Roller Curtains on the 3200-series with LED Displays(4 on each car X 256 Units).

[Amtrak41]

I wonder if some fleet expansion will occur sooner rather than later (i.e. scrap 2200's and on slower than 5000's arrive) if large METRA fare hike rider causes shift to CTA.

[Busjack]

I wonder if some fleet expansion will occur sooner rather than later (i.e. scrap 2200's and on slower than 5000's arrive) if large METRA fare hike rider causes shift to CTA.

Basically, that would be relevant only on the UPN line between Ravenswood and Central St. in Evanston, but it appears that those commuters have already voted against CTA "with their feet." Most of the other Metra lines don't have that much in-city business. Might also be slightly relevant comparing Oak Park via Metra or Green Line, but I am sure those riders prefer the one-stop ride on Metra.

[Busjack]

That LED displays they are talking about is probably the one on the inside of the 5000-series railcars(e.g: Belmont Is Next. Doors Open On The Left At Belmont). They aren't going to replace 1,024 Roller Curtains on the 3200-series with LED Displays(4 on each car X 256 Units).

The budget says "Destination signs." Hence, you need proof that they don't mean their exact words. While possible at the CTA, it is unlikely that they meant ADA signs.

BTW, there are only 3 per car (front, left and right).

Note also that the budget referred to 258 cars, so they are including 3457-8.

[Amtrak41]

Basically, that would be relevant only on the UPN line between Ravenswood and Central St. in Evanston, but it appears that those commuters have already voted against CTA "with their feet." Most of the other Metra lines don't have that much in-city business. Might also be slightly relevant comparing Oak Park via Metra or Green Line, but I am sure those riders prefer the one-stop ride on Metra.

I was of thinking people living along the MILW-North driving down the Edens and parking at Dempster.

Also drive instead of taking the UP-NW and park at Jeff Park.

[sw4400]

The budget says "Destination signs." Hence, you need proof that they don't mean their exact words. While possible at the CTA, it is unlikely that they meant ADA signs.

BTW, there are only 3 per car (front, left and right).

Note also that the budget referred to 258 cars, so they are including 3457-8.

ok, so recalculating the math... 3 x 256= 768 Roller Curtains to be replaced with LED Displays on 20 year old equipment? I didn't see the CTA putting front LED Displays on the TMC's and Flxible 5300-Series when they did the 6000-Series, and they still had a few years of service life at the time, like the 3200's(about 10 years). The only thing they did was give them LED Automated Destination screens to display the next stops. Now 2 LED Destination Displays on the inside x 256 units= 512 LED Destination Displays which ultimately is less work & money for the CTA, as all they have to do is link those to Mr. CTA and the GPS Tracking Unit which announces stops. Those LED screens probably run about the price of a Laptop Computer. To do the Curtain/LED swap, they would probably have to take apart the unit in the cab that is used to changed the curtains and put in a computerized unit which will automatically do that, and those probably run about several thousand dollars per unit for railcars that are about 10 years away from retirement? Not to mention the actual LED Display Unit costs to replace the curtains. It doesn't make sense, Busjack. Nor would it be about my farfetched idea of making them A/C so they could train with the 5000's because as you said they would have to take off the trucks and put all new ones on that are A/C capable with regenative braking.

I'm not including 3457-3458 because you have a 1994 unit which is 18 years old and a 1985 unit which is 27 years ago. 3458 will probably be retired and scrapped, or perhaps re-mated with another 2600 unit that can re-enter service for whatever time remains for it(2701, 2721 and 2977 are sitting without mates right now) and 3457 will be rehabbed and be trained with whatever unit of 3351-3352 is fixable and able to re-enter service making a mismatched pair of 3457-3351 or 3457-3352.

[Busjack]

ok, so recalculating the math... 3 x 256= 768 Roller Curtains to be replaced with LED Displays on 20 year old equipment? I didn't see the CTA putting front LED Displays on the TMC's and Flxible 5300-Series when they did the 6000-Series, and they still had a few years of service life at the time, like the 3200's(about 10 years).

...

I'm not including 3457-3458 because you have a 1994 unit which is 18 years old and a 1985 unit which is 27 years ago. 3458 will probably be retired and scrapped, or perhaps re-mated with another 2600 unit that can re-enter service for whatever time remains for it(2701, 2721 and 2977 are sitting without mates right now) and 3457 will be rehabbed and be trained with whatever unit of 3351-3352 is fixable and able to re-enter service making a mismatched pair of 3457-3351 or 3457-3352.

Regardless of your assumptions, you have no basis for making them.

In addition, this is a mid-life rehab, so CTA must be expecting to get another 12 years service out of them. So, this is no bigger waste of money than replacing the flip dot with LED signs on the 6000s, or having Alstom rebuild the 2600s in 2000-2002 or so

I'll admit that there is enough of an ambiguity that they might have been referring to the ADA signs, but then they also have to install GPS into each car. That's much more expensive than replacing three electronic signs, even if (from the bus stop cost per sign) CTA overpays.

[See Tea Eh]

I don't have specific cost details, but I'm sure it would be far more expensive to wire up the 3200s to have the internal stop announcement displays than to replace the destination signs with LEDs. The number of pieces of equipment to buy is only part of the equation (and if you're buying them by the thousands, as they currently are with the 5000-series, you can get some good discounts).

The cars are already wired up to have destination signs changed from the cab (just swap out the sign changer and the signs). They are not wired up to have stop displays, so besides just buying the displays, you have to install an entirely new system of computers and wiring.

That said, if they're going to keep the cars for a while, it probably makes sense to redo everything at once.

[Busjack]

...

The cars are already wired up to have destination signs changed from the cab (just swap out the sign changer and the signs). They are not wired up to have stop displays, so besides just buying the displays, you have to install an entirely new system of computers and wiring.

That said, if they're going to keep the cars for a while, it probably makes sense to redo everything at once.

The question is how much work is being budgeted, comparing the 2200s and 2600s being taken off the property for work by New York Rail and Alstom, respectively, as opposed to chicago-l.org saying that the 2400s got some work at Skokie Shops.

If a 2600 type rehab is contemplated, changing the destination signs and even putting in an ADA system would be comparatively small potatoes (chicago-l.org stating that the base contract was for $169 million for 284 cars, or about $600K per car; probably half of what new cars would have cost then).

[artthouwill]

The question is how much work is being budgeted, comparing the 2200s and 2600s being taken off the property for work by New York Rail and Alstom, respectively, as opposed to chicago-l.org saying that the 2400s got some work at Skokie Shops.

If a 2600 type rehab is contemplated, changing the destination signs and even putting in an ADA system would be comparatively small potatoes (chicago-l.org stating that the base contract was for $169 million for 284 cars, or about $600K per car; probably half of what new cars would have cost then).

Would (could) that include reconfiguring seats to match the 5000s?

Other than extending the motorman cab across the front of each car and bolting the door switches at the end of some cars, the 2400s went untouched, save for the seat fabrics. The 2200s and 2600s sent out got new lighting along with some hopper windows at the end of each car (2600s). If all of the 3200s only need seat configuration and LED destination signs, I would imagine that could be done in-house at Skolie.

[Busjack]

Would (could) that include reconfiguring seats to match the 5000s?

Other than extending the motorman cab across the front of each car and bolting the door switches at the end of some cars, the 2400s went untouched, save for the seat fabrics. The 2200s and 2600s sent out got new lighting along with some hopper windows at the end of each car (2600s). If all of the 3200s only need seat configuration and LED destination signs, I would imagine that could be done in-house at Skolie.

The real question on all of these is how much undercar equipment was replaced. At $292K a 2200 car in 1992, and about $600K a 2600 car, it better have been most of it, especially the motors on the 2200s, which went through the blizzard of 79.

I'm sure it wouldn't be worth it to send the cars to Alstom in New York, just to put in hopper windows, the cab partition, stripping the decals, and let's not forget, moving the main door controls from the conductor's position to the cab, while doing more than just plating over the conductor's position.

[greenstreet]

ok, so recalculating the math... 3 x 256= 768 Roller Curtains to be replaced with LED Displays on 20 year old equipment? I didn't see the CTA putting front LED Displays on the TMC's and Flxible 5300-Series when they did the 6000-Series, and they still had a few years of service life at the time, like the 3200's(about 10 years). The only thing they did was give them LED Automated Destination screens to display the next stops. Now 2 LED Destination Displays on the inside x 256 units= 512 LED Destination Displays which ultimately is less work & money for the CTA, as all they have to do is link those to Mr. CTA and the GPS Tracking Unit which announces stops. Those LED screens probably run about the price of a Laptop Computer. To do the Curtain/LED swap, they would probably have to take apart the unit in the cab that is used to changed the curtains and put in a computerized unit which will automatically do that, and those probably run about several thousand dollars per unit for railcars that are about 10 years away from retirement? Not to mention the actual LED Display Unit costs to replace the curtains. It doesn't make sense, Busjack. Nor would it be about my farfetched idea of making them A/C so they could train with the 5000's because as you said they would have to take off the trucks and put all new ones on that are A/C capable with regenative braking.

I'm not including 3457-3458 because you have a 1994 unit which is 18 years old and a 1985 unit which is 27 years ago. 3458 will probably be retired and scrapped, or perhaps re-mated with another 2600 unit that can re-enter service for whatever time remains for it(2701, 2721 and 2977 are sitting without mates right now) and 3457 will be rehabbed and be trained with whatever unit of 3351-3352 is fixable and able to re-enter service making a mismatched pair of 3457-3351 or 3457-3352.

The 2012 budget proposal clearly and explicitly says:

The 2012-2016 CIP will provide funding for a multi-year overhaul program to the

3200-series

rail cars. The

3200-series consists of 258 rail cars

, which are projected to receive a mid-life (“D”) rehabilitation. Work will consist of some of overhaul of propulsion systems, trucks and couplers, and replacement of other major systems such as auxiliary power supply, door operators and air comfort. The overhaul will update the passenger information system with new

LED destination signs

and will include a new public address system. A new Automatic Vehicle Maintenance system will be installed that will transmit odometer and fault information via WiFi at the rail yards. Interior panels, lighting, flooring, and seats will be replaced and/or refurbished to enhance customer comfort.

The costs projected for this project are identified in the budget:

2012: $82,353,000

2013-2016: $165,687,000

5-Yr. Funding: $248,040,000

It clearly is not talking about the 5000s and is very clear about what will be done. Dismissing work because it will cost "several thousand dollars per unit" is unsupported, considering the total expected cost over 5 years.

But to bring this post back to the topic of the 5000s, look for an announcement next week that the CTA is entering the design process necessary to lead to the ultimate installation of color LED destination signs in the 5000-series cars.

[sw4400]

The 2012 budget proposal clearly and explicitly says:

The 2012-2016 CIP will provide funding for a multi-year overhaul program to the

3200-series

rail cars. The

3200-series consists of 258 rail cars

, which are projected to receive a mid-life (“D”) rehabilitation. Work will consist of some of overhaul of propulsion systems, trucks and couplers, and replacement of other major systems such as auxiliary power supply, door operators and air comfort. The overhaul will update the passenger information system with new

LED destination signs

and will include a new public address system. A new Automatic Vehicle Maintenance system will be installed that will transmit odometer and fault information via WiFi at the rail yards. Interior panels, lighting, flooring, and seats will be replaced and/or refurbished to enhance customer comfort.

The costs projected for this project are identified in the budget:

2012: $82,353,000

2013-2016: $165,687,000

5-Yr. Funding: $248,040,000

It clearly is not talking about the 5000s and is very clear about what will be done. Dismissing work because it will cost "several thousand dollars per unit" is unsupported, considering the total expected cost over 5 years.

But to bring this post back to the topic of the 5000s, look for an announcement next week that the CTA is entering the design process necessary to lead to the ultimate installation of color LED destination signs in the 5000-series cars.

This supports my thought that all the 3200-Series railcars are getting is those LED Display Screens seen inside the 5000-Series railcars, as supported by the following line....

The overhaul will update the passenger information system with new LED Destination Signs and will include a new Public Address System.

Nothing was mentioned about a roller curtain to LED Sign swap. They're talking about those screens on the inside of the 5000-series cars.

[BusHunter]

The 2012 budget proposal clearly and explicitly says:

The 2012-2016 CIP will provide funding for a multi-year overhaul program to the

3200-series

rail cars. The

3200-series consists of 258 rail cars

, which are projected to receive a mid-life (“D”) rehabilitation. Work will consist of some of overhaul of propulsion systems, trucks and couplers, and replacement of other major systems such as auxiliary power supply, door operators and air comfort. The overhaul will update the passenger information system with new

LED destination signs

and will include a new public address system. A new Automatic Vehicle Maintenance system will be installed that will transmit odometer and fault information via WiFi at the rail yards. Interior panels, lighting, flooring, and seats will be replaced and/or refurbished to enhance customer comfort.

The costs projected for this project are identified in the budget:

2012: $82,353,000

2013-2016: $165,687,000

5-Yr. Funding: $248,040,000

It clearly is not talking about the 5000s and is very clear about what will be done. Dismissing work because it will cost "several thousand dollars per unit" is unsupported, considering the total expected cost over 5 years.

But to bring this post back to the topic of the 5000s, look for an announcement next week that the CTA is entering the design process necessary to lead to the ultimate installation of color LED destination signs in the 5000-series cars.

So, it sounds like possibly the #3200's may be wifi equipped in the future as far as for customer use. I know the #5000's already have wifi installed, but CTA has not yet turned that on for the public to use. As far as the color LED destinations, I wonder when (like around what car) do they expect to start this. Do they plan on changing the existing #5000 equipment over or not. They could always just send the cars they have already to the Orange line and they wouldn't need to fix those, but as they continue to receive cars that prospect would seem unlikely. They would have to change some over anyway. I highly doubt this would get implemented by the 94th car anyway.

[Busjack]

The 2012 budget proposal clearly and explicitly says:

The 2012-2016 CIP will provide funding for a multi-year overhaul program to the

3200-series

rail cars. The

3200-series consists of 258 rail cars

, which are projected to receive a mid-life ("D") rehabilitation. Work will consist of some of overhaul of propulsion systems, trucks and couplers, and replacement of other major systems such as auxiliary power supply, door operators and air comfort. The overhaul will update the passenger information system with new

LED destination signs

and will include a new public address system. A new Automatic Vehicle Maintenance system will be installed that will transmit odometer and fault information via WiFi at the rail yards. Interior panels, lighting, flooring, and seats will be replaced and/or refurbished to enhance customer comfort.

The costs projected for this project are identified in the budget:

2012: $82,353,000

2013-2016: $165,687,000

5-Yr. Funding: $248,040,000

...

I was too lazy to pull the line item, so thanks. The budget calls for $961K per car, so they are talking major work, compared to either the $1.4m per 5000 or even the $811K Krambles said they paid for each 3200 18 years ago. Maybe even enough to put in AC traction.

But there is no point in putting LED Destination Signs in red for sw, for two reasons, one of which is similar to him being convinced that there is a scrapper at 77th or that I want to buy a gutted bus. As I said before, CTA frequently doesn't mean what it says, but LED Destination Signs seems pretty clear.

As for BusHunter's comment, I take the wifi reference to mean that it will be about as available for customer use as the cell phone link used for Bus Tracker information is--i.e. not, since CTA would then be negating the contracts for cell phone companies to use the communications system in the subway. Of course, one can go to the CTA Tattler and decide whether one wants to show one's smartphone on the L.

[sw4400]

But there is no point in putting LED Destination Signs in red for sw, for two reasons, one of which is similar to him being convinced that there is a scrapper at 77th or that I want to buy a gutted bus. As I said before, CTA frequently doesn't mean what it says, but LED Destination Signs seems pretty clear.

Yeah, Busjack... way to bring up an older post that has no relevancy here!!! I have seen scrapped buses photographed at 77th and Perry, and as far as you buying a gutted bus, I already told you that was just as an example to prove a point about the CTA selling scrap buses to the public, but this is for another forum, and has been discussed and resolved there, at least by me... I guess you can't let it go, however!!!

BTW, way to pick on someone who is color blind!!! You must feel really proud for doing that, huh??? I pray you don't have this issue someday, then you'll know what I go through when it's difficult to distinguish colors!!!

[sw4400]

Getting back on the topic here.... ^__^

So much for the kneeling/raising function on the 5000-Series railcars(a function that I think is silly and will just be more money to maintain when broken, as I guess it is here)....

cta5055 gap filler.bmp

[Busjack]

Getting back on the topic here.... ^__^

So much for the kneeling/raising function on the 5000-Series railcars(a function that I think is silly and will just be more money to maintain when broken, as I guess it is here)....

The height doesn't eliminate the horizontal gap.

[ryanbytes]

I hope the kneeling function is tweaked so it matches platform heights. When I rode on the test trains they always kneeled as the doors opened. It was a mishmash of heights relative to the platform. The worst was when the kneeling function created a step up out of the train onto the platform. Yes people should be aware of where they step but I think the usual unexpected step is a step down which is compensated for more easily than a toe caught on a platform edge from an unexpected step up.