5000-series - Updates

[BusHunter]

From the press release you can tell it's a problem with the raw metal pieces supplied to make the finished housings. Any reasonable quality management system would require that they stop using any similar parts (same supplier or process) until the root cause is found and fixed or a new supplier is found that can meet the quality requirements. I would agree that this is an indicator that QC is working and they are willing to address issues proactively.

If that were true most likely they would have to then retrofit the existing equipment. That probably would involve a return to Plattsburg. This would mean certain cars like the prototypes would have been sent to CTA from Bombardier 3 times. I wonder if this is the first time this defect has happened at Bombardier. With Bombardier making so many different rail vehicles across the world I'm surprised no one else has discovered such a problem. Unless CTA's rail vehicles are totally unique.

[Amtrak41]

If that were true most likely they would have to then retrofit the existing equipment. That probably would involve a return to Plattsburg. This would mean certain cars like the prototypes would have been sent to CTA from Bombardier 3 times. I wonder if this is the first time this defect has happened at Bombardier. With Bombardier making so many different rail vehicles across the world I'm surprised no one else has discovered such a problem. Unless CTA's rail vehicles are totally unique.

The should haul them on the rear of the Lake Shore Ltd and Adirondack if this is going to be a routine thing for 62 cars. :lol:

[cjk177]

If that were true most likely they would have to then retrofit the existing equipment. That probably would involve a return to Plattsburg. This would mean certain cars like the prototypes would have been sent to CTA from Bombardier 3 times. I wonder if this is the first time this defect has happened at Bombardier. With Bombardier making so many different rail vehicles across the world I'm surprised no one else has discovered such a problem. Unless CTA's rail vehicles are totally unique.

Yep, I'd imagine they will have to remove the trucks from the cars, even just to inspect them. Hard to tell where the castings come from, could be a new supplier or different specs than they are used to.

The should haul them on the rear of the Lake Shore Ltd and Adirondack if this is going to be a routine thing for 62 cars.

Hah, that would be good. Too bad they aren't legal for it!

[BusHunter]

Yep, I'd imagine they will have to remove the trucks from the cars, even just to inspect them. Hard to tell where the castings come from, could be a new supplier or different specs than they are used to.

Also the fact that it's warranty work would imply a return to plattsburg, it just depends on how easy it is to fix. I doubt Skokie Shops would do it, CTA would then have to pay their own employees to fix someone else's problem.

[Busjack]

.., CTA would then have to pay their own employees to fix someone else's problem.

They could also seek reimbursement in advance, or Bombardier could send a crew here. Of course, NABI promised to send their people here, too, but the docket indicates that that case has been continued to 1/24.

[See Tea Eh]

Also the fact that it's warranty work would imply a return to plattsburg, it just depends on how easy it is to fix. I doubt Skokie Shops would do it, CTA would then have to pay their own employees to fix someone else's problem.

Warranty work for large quantities of very expensive commercial equipment isn't the same as getting warranty work done on your $400 laptop at Best Buy.

Transit systems get warranty work done on buses all the time, and they are generally done in-house, or by someone local (representative of the manufacturer), but paid for by the manufacturer. Warranty work is rarely, if ever, done back at the manufacturer itself. (In fact, sometimes with buses, if a defect on a particular unit is caught during final inspection, the bus will be sent somewhere else for repairs.)

With trains, it's almost certainly the same way. Especially considering the costs and logistical issues associated with shipping equipment back to the plant (it's not like they still have the original box and FedEx return sticker), it would be far easier to ship whatever parts are needed, and have the work done on-site, then reimburse for the hours.

[Busjack]

...

Transit systems get warranty work done on buses all the time, and they are generally done in-house, or by someone local (representative of the manufacturer), but paid for by the manufacturer. Warranty work is rarely, if ever, done back at the manufacturer itself. (In fact, sometimes with buses, if a defect on a particular unit is caught during final inspection, the bus will be sent somewhere else for repairs.)

With trains, it's almost certainly the same way...

At least the CTA bus spec so provides, in that if a delivery is not accepted, repairs are to be made by the manufacturer or by the CTA, but if by the CTA, the manufacturer has to reimburse the CTA at the mechanic's current hourly rate (at the time of the aborted requisition, $50/hour) and either provide replacement parts or reimburse CTA for them plus handling costs. Similarly, the warranty provision says that to the extent practicable, CTA will allow the manufacturer or its representative to perform the work, but CTA has the discretion to do the work and the manufacturer will reimburse it, at the same rates as noted above.

One would have to consider the cost of hauling the cars back and forth, as opposed to whether Skokie Shops has the equipment to do the inspection.

[BusHunter]

At least the CTA bus spec so provides, in that if a delivery is not accepted, repairs are to be made by the manufacturer or by the CTA, but if by the CTA, the manufacturer has to reimburse the CTA at the mechanic's current hourly rate (at the time of the aborted requisition, $50/hour) and either provide replacement parts or reimburse CTA for them plus handling costs. Similarly, the warranty provision says that to the extent practicable, CTA will allow the manufacturer or its representative to perform the work, but CTA has the discretion to do the work and the manufacturer will reimburse it, at the same rates as noted above.

One would have to consider the cost of hauling the cars back and forth, as opposed to whether Skokie Shops has the equipment to do the inspection.

Also it also depends on if Skokie Shops has the space or time to do a dual Bombardier repair and work on there own equipment side by side. Bombardier would also have to consider whether this would disrupt any present manufacturing at there own plant. Regardless, we're probably not going to see these cars for a while, and when we do they might be the newer cars being built now versus the repair ones.

[chitowndude84]

Hmmm I smell NABI part II .Can I speculate another "Conditional Acceptance" scenario with the manufacture to avoid bad press with the media ??

[jajuan]

Hmmm I smell NABI part II .Can I speculate another "Conditional Acceptance" scenario with the manufacture to avoid bad press with the media ??

Not quite the same thing as the NABI scenario in that there were initial tests that showed the NABI artic was a lemon but rather than stop deliveries and have NABI work out the joint failure problem, they went ahead and took all the buses anyway. Beyond that the NABI 60-LFW was an untested model from the standpoint that no other TA had ever used this model before, and as far as I know no other TA besides the CTA has since CTA's order. Essentially CTA are the only ones to use this model bus. This situation with the 5000s, they found a quality control issue with the wheel castings on the 5000s and are now erring on the side of caution and safety by putting further deliveries on hold on top of pulling what cars they received from service so that Bombardier can try to fix the problem. Considering this is what about the third time they sidelined these cars, I think bad press is far from their minds this time around. As I said before, it looks as if they're trying to do all possible to avoid having another NABI incident.

[qwantae]

Since 5000s are in jeopardy temporary means that most of or all remaining 2200s Budd will still be in service this summer 2012 or what? Hope so.

[MRCTA]

Well, at least we get a chance to see them in action. But, as you said, cell phone video is terrible... as close as you are, it looks like a 2600 or 3200 riding those rails. I guess I'll just have to wait for a more clearer pic/video of these new railcars(unless I happen to be on the Brown Line when they come there for testing, then I might just be able to catch a trial ride on them).

Did you hear that CTA's getting new articulated hybrid buses? I know they must have ordered a whole lot of rail cars(including the 5000s)

[Guest]

I was at Grayland Station Hobby today, I was told by a very reliable source that the 5000s will be maintained by engineers from Bombardier. He tells me the CTAs own rail wizards are not being trained to maintain the new cars. He says the rail mechanics will eventually lose their jobs over time as new the cars are brought in and begin the replacement of the 2600s. Also, he tells me that the 3200s in the future will be converted to ac propulsion. Has anyone else heard more about this?

[sw4400]

I was at Grayland Station Hobby today, I was told by a very reliable source that the 5000s will be maintained by engineers from Bombardier. He tells me the CTAs own rail wizards are not being trained to maintain the new cars. He says the rail mechanics will eventually lose their jobs over time as new the cars are brought in and begin the replacement of the 2600s. Also, he tells me that the 3200s in the future will be converted to ac propulsion. Has anyone else heard more about this?

That was my speculation, but given the cost, I thought it would be impracticable. Does that kinda give the 3200's a rebirth, since they're going from D/C trucks to A/C trucks(another 25-30 yrs. added to their life)?

[Busjack]

The CTA Tattler's Kevin found this Plattsburg story on the 5000 wheel bearing casting issue, including an indication of what else Bombardier is making.

[Mr.cta85]

Are the 5000's still around?? Im starting to think otherwise unless theyre still sitting at 54th and skokie. I sure hope they are getting the proper attention they need so they'll be up and running again soon.

[sw4400]

Are the 5000's still around?? Im starting to think otherwise unless theyre still sitting at 54th and skokie. I sure hope they are getting the proper attention they need so they'll be up and running again soon.

They are still around.... at least the 50-70 of them already here. They're just getting those wheel bearing castings examined and fixed. Hopefully they'll be back in service soon. If the CTA decides to drop the contract, that'll lead to a CTA v Bombardier lawsuit(faulty equipment) with a cross-suit of Bombardier v CTA(not paying for contract). And the CTA will then have to find a new manufacturer for the railcars, as the 2200's(1969-1970) and 2400's(1976-1978) can't remain in service too much longer. The 2600's(1981-1987) will be fine for a few more years, but we will definitely need about 330 railcars. In essence, it'll be like the NABI situation again, where the CTA needed new Articulateds, and went with New Flyer.

Let's hope this is the last kink, and the railcars will be running again and not sitting in Skokie Shops like the NABI 60-LFW Buses are at 77th/Perry.

[qwantae]

They are still around.... at least the 50-70 of them already here. They're just getting those wheel bearing castings examined and fixed. Hopefully they'll be back in service soon. If the CTA decides to drop the contract, that'll lead to a CTA v Bombardier lawsuit(faulty equipment) with a cross-suit of Bombardier v CTA(not paying for contract). And the CTA will then have to find a new manufacturer for the railcars, as the 2200's(1969-1970) and 2400's(1976-1978) can't remain in service too much longer. The 2600's(1981-1987) will be fine for a few more years, but we will definitely need about 330 railcars. In essence, it'll be like the NABI situation again, where the CTA needed new Articulateds, and went with New Flyer.

Let's hope this is the last kink, and the railcars will be running again and not sitting in Skokie Shops like the NABI 60-LFW Buses are at 77th/Perry.

Got a feeling that at least over half or nearly 70% fleet of 2200s will remain this Summer 2012, and some 2400s will still be around next year. We'll see I guess.

[BusHunter]

Got a feeling that at least over half or nearly 70% fleet of 2200s will remain this Summer 2012, and some 2400s will still be around next year. We'll see I guess.

CTA has stated they will not retire railcars for at least a year, and that was before the #5000's were withdrawn from service. So the #2200's should still be all around by the start of 2013. I think some #2200's may still be around for 2014. It all depends on if the #5000's will behave or not. The fact that Bombardier is laying off employees shows they don't anticipate work there (as far as Chicago's order) in the near future. They most likely are waiting for their order, for the new parts needed to fix the cars, to be processed. Hopefully that will be sooner rather than later.

[qwantae]

CTA has stated they will not retire railcars for at least a year, and that was before the #5000's were withdrawn from service. So the #2200's should still be all around by the start of 2013. I think some #2200's may still be around for 2014. It all depends on if the #5000's will behave or not. The fact that Bombardier is laying off employees shows they don't anticipate work there (as far as Chicago's order) in the near future. They most likely are waiting for their order, for the new parts needed to fix the cars, to be processed. Hopefully that will be sooner rather than later.

I'm hoping for 2014 for 2200s (my favorite rail fleet). Seems that they're doing a little better so far for over last year or two. I could care less for 2400s but at least they'll still be around. Glad I still get to ride 2200s for this spring/ summer coming up.

[sw4400]

According to the CBS2Chicago website (Link), the CTA has 92 5000-Series Railcars on-site. 40 of which have been in service, 52 that have yet to see service. When(or if) they will remains up in the air. The press has asked Forrest Claypool if he thinks the Bombardier Railcars are lemons, he said he doesn't. Although the article does mention that Bombardier has had issues with the orders of railcars being delivered overseas for the German, French and Swedish state railroads.

On an interesting note in the article, the 2200's had a similar issue when first delivered, only that was concerned with the shoe that collects power from the third rail.

I hope this is fixable, not the NABI equivalent of railcars. If so, maybe the CTA should stop taking lowest bidders. NABI was the lowest bidder in 2003, and we know what started happening just one year later(poor suspension, cracks in articulation joint, faulty rear doors).

[RJL6000]

On an interesting note in the article, the 2200's had a similar issue when first delivered, only that was concerned with the shoe that collects power from the third rail.

Perhaps that was why a few 6000-series cars (mainly those from the original 1950-51 deliveries, with numbers between 6001 and 6200) were temporarily assigned to the West-South (Lake-Dan Ryan) Route. Otherwise, while the issues with the 2200s were being fixed, the Lake-Dan Ryan ran mostly with 2000-series cars delivered from Pullman in 1964. And again during 1977-78, some 6000s numbered in the 6001-6200 group were also temporarily assigned to the Lake-Dan Ryan route (this situation lasted only until enough 2400-series cars were delivered from Boeing-Vertol to cover base service on all of the lines that they were assigned to at the time).

The West-Northwest (Congress-Douglas-Milwaukee) Route was not as adversely affected since that line had enough 6000s (the later ones, numbered from 6511-6720) to cover most service on that line, supplemented by a handful of single-unit 1-50 series double-ended cars (which were delivered simultaneously with the last 50 6000s in 1959-60).

[Busjack]

On an interesting note in the article, the 2200's had a similar issue when first delivered, only that was concerned with the shoe that collects power from the third rail.

The 2200s involved a simpler issue. They had a paddle third rail pickup instead of the drop shoe on most other cars, and it wasn't insulated well enough from the rest of the truck, so there was some arcing and a few fires. They added some insulation and it took care of it. As the article indicates, that was resolved quickly.

The bigger giggle was:

Trains of the new 'L' cars were seen on the Red Line last week, but Claypool said they were out of service and merely going to and from X-ray sessions.

So, they had to go to St. Francis or Evanston Hospital? They couldn't X-ray them at Mt. Sinai?:lol:

[airportrocket]

Anyone know when these series of cars will be back in service? I am planning to visit Chicago soon and I want to be certain they are in service before I come.

[Busjack]

Anyone know when these series of cars will be back in service? I am planning to visit Chicago soon and I want to be certain they are in service before I come.

That question sounds similar to asking when the MRI says that Brian Urlacher's sprained knee will be fit enough to play again. Except here we have 720 or so truck parts that have to be X-rayed and diagnosed.

So, just like you don't plan your Hawaii vacation to see Urlacher in the Pro Bowl, treat this in the same manner.