5000-series - Updates

[buslist]

Looking at Addendum 1, at least they weren't at the prebid meeting and inspection.

Because they announced several years ago that they are exiting the business. I believe the last car build for them will be the Denver airport cars, (same as the Philly cars?).

[buslist]

OK let me get up on my soapbox here and ramble on about several of the issues that have been discussed.

First of all let me declare that Bombardier North America was not one of my favorite customers. Whenever a securement request went out that required testing at Pueblo we would prepare a generic cost estimate and make it available to any of the potential bidders. Bombardier would never request an estimate but put their own into the bid package. If they won the bid it was then up to us to figure out how to accomplish the testing at the price they had estimated. Didn't make us feel really good about them. given some of the commissioning problems we have had with Bombardier equipment every time I get on a CRJ I have to tell myself it's a different division, it's a different division.

It's also necessary to recognize that Bombardier is a very diverse non-centralized company. As of several years ago they were the largest passenger car builder in the world. They achieved that position by acquiring a number of car builders in Europe and elsewhere not by growth from their original car building organization. They have made very little attempts to consolidate or centralize the functions of the various car builders. Just as an example there is no center of excellence for truck/bogie design, each location does its own thing. Often the different divisions do little to cooperate. So experience with their rolling stock in Europe is not necessarily an indication of success here in North America. Several years ago we had both the Long Island M7 ( aa North American project) and the ALP 46 ( a German project) under test at the same time. The two test crews refused to talk to each other and asked us to be the intermediaries if one needed something from the other. What I'm trying to get at is that their experience in else where may have little to do with the quality of their product in North America.

There has been some discussion of CTAs taking on a new design. But remember the weld issue is not a design issue but an execution issue. It's the reason that transit agencies employ quality inspectors at their suppliers. On the roller bearing issue I believe that would have been avoided had the CTA insisted on AAR M 1003 certification of the roller bearing facility. It's remarkable when you think about it that the freight car supply industry produces roller bearings for anywhere between 50 to 100,000 new cars each year as well as replacement bearings with little or no quality issues. I can only think of one serious incident involving roller bearings in the last 15 years. the transit car builders, especially those in Europe, have their own QA program called Iris. It is primarily designed to ease assembly of the cars rather than the long-term safety performance that is a keystone of the AAR program. Several years ago I worked with the UIC to help them decide if they should set up a program similar to the AARs worldwide. It never happened as their chief in-house champion moved on to other employment.

There have been a couple of conflicting statements about the uniqueness of CTAs rolling stock. Someone pointed out that there is nothing else like CTAs and someone else suggested that if there was a massive recall of 5000s CTA could borrow stock from another agency. Although nothing out there is identical to CTAs configuration, the MBTA blue line, PATH and NYC TA IRT cars are of similar dimensions.

Another mention was made of clashes of cultures. One of the most interesting I observed was the Acela Consortium which consisted of Bombardier and Alstom. Although they were both French-speaking organizations they certainly did not know how to communicate with each other. The Atkanic is a big divide.

[buslist]

Because they announced several years ago that they are exiting the business. I believe the last car build for them will be the Denver airport cars, (same as the Philly cars?).

[Busjack]

Without quoting the above, a couple of quickies:

• In connection with the 7000s procurement, CTA has said that there are approved subcontractors, and if one bidder has qualified the subcontractor, the others do not have to. Thus, with regard to the wheel bearing journals, one wonders if the same procedure was in effect, and CTA approved that subcontractor. While I suppose that approval of subcontractors on extensive items (such as American Seating or Freedman on seats, or Vapor on door controls) is usual, I wonder about such things as Chinese foundries.
• The cultural point is interesting, in that the Bombardier Transportation page indicates that the headquarters are in Berlin, which is apparently Adtranz, while the Bombardier we know (and the corporate headquarters) is based in Quebec and the Plattsburgh plant is obviously affiliated with the latter. Sort of similar to Daimler and Orion, there wasn't any effort to consolidate product lines. And, unlike some companies I know, Dogbert and Catbert were not sent in to consolidate operations.

[sw4400]

With CTA obsessed with all their railcars looking as close to each other so they match each other like in the past(2000's changed several times to match the schemes of the 2200's and 2400's, 2600's to match the 3200's, etc...), I would look for the 7000's to look not much different than the 5000's, which are almost identical to the 3200's.

[Busjack]

buslist:

Not sure what you were saying here with regard to power jumpers if that applied only to IRM trying to run third rail equipment with trolley poles, or ....

Does this shed light on the problem here that 5000s were getting stuck at Tower 18 when the lead car lost contact with the third rail and the stinger had to be used?

If, in fact, the first car had to contact 600 vDC to operate the rest of the train, how did CTA resolve this problem (do you think)?

[chicagopcclcar]

buslist:

Not sure what you were saying here with regard to power jumpers if that applied only to IRM trying to run third rail equipment with trolley poles, or ....

Does this shed light on the problem here that 5000s were getting stuck at Tower 18 when the lead car lost contact with the third rail and the stinger had to be used?

If, in fact, the first car had to contact 600 vDC to operate the rest of the train, how did CTA resolve this problem (do you think)?

The problem with the 5000s getting stuck at Tower 18 was not strictly because of the power loss or the use of stingers. This is shown by the fact that 5000s are no longer getting stuck there and there has been absolutely no change in the placement of the third rail or third rail gaps.

[joechicago]

The problem with the 5000s getting stuck at Tower 18 was not strictly because of the power loss or the use of stingers. This is shown by the fact that 5000s are no longer getting stuck there and there has been absolutely no change in the placement of the third rail or third rail gaps.

A few months ago someone posted in a Reddit thread a pretty good explanation for the problem at Tower 18. I should've seen if it was posted here too, and I can't find the thread now.

What it basically boiled down to though was a software issue where when the 5000's were not getting the ATC info from the third rail after a certain amount of time they would shut down as a safety precaution. Apparently whatever length of time that was set on the 5000's was shorter then what it was on the 3200's, 2600's, etc. Once they figured this out and the 5000's were reprogrammed, the issue went away.

Again, this is based on my memory from another thread, so I apologize if it is not 100% accurate, but it seemed liked a reasonable explanation to me, and the fact that it doesn't seem like there was any change in the configuration of Tower 18 and that they are now running 4 car trains again, leads me to believe it is correct.

[Busjack]

A few months ago someone posted in a Reddit thread a pretty good explanation for the problem at Tower 18. I should've seen if it was posted here too, and I can't find the thread now.

What it basically boiled down to though was a software issue where when the 5000's were not getting the ATC info from the third rail after a certain amount of time they would shut down as a safety precaution. Apparently whatever length of time that was set on the 5000's was shorter then what it was on the 3200's, 2600's, etc. Once they figured this out and the 5000's were reprogrammed, the issue went away.

Again, this is based on my memory from another thread, so I apologize if it is not 100% accurate, but it seemed liked a reasonable explanation to me, and the fact that it doesn't seem like there was any change in the configuration of Tower 18 and that they are now running 4 car trains again, leads me to believe it is correct.

The ATC would have come from the regular rail. Besides the high voltage messing up the signal, the Skokie Swift had cab signals while it still had overhead. See also the explanation here, indicating that the trains' wheels shunt the RF signal, resulting in a red.

Maybe a discontinuity in the rails making up the switch could have had some effect, but it is hard to see how connecting the stinger would have cured that.

[ctrabs74]

S-Denver-Eagle-project-sim-thumb.jpg

Yes, Denver's cars look almost exactly like SEPTA's Sliverliner V cars.

[chicagopcclcar]

The ATC would have come from the regular rail. Besides the high voltage messing up the signal, the Skokie Swift had cab signals while it still had overhead. See also the explanation here, indicating that the trains' wheels shunt the RF signal, resulting in a red.

Maybe a discontinuity in the rails making up the switch could have had some effect, but it is hard to see how connecting the stinger would have cured that.

The only use for the stinger was to power the head car and move the train off the section gap. The stinger had no relationship to the problem being experienced. You keep bringing this up over and over, just like Granville incidents. If you are not satisfied with answers you receive on the internet why don't you go and ask the CTA directly...stop harping on this over and over. They have paid staff who will explain it to you if you just ask. How do you think I get my questions answered.

[chgofan78]

Saw 5251-5252 and 5257-5258 in Howard yard yesterday.

[ChicagoNova]

Saw 5251-5252 and 5257-5258 in Howard yard yesterday.

Are they still delivering cars or has that been temporarily halted?

[Busjack]

Are they still delivering cars or has that been temporarily halted?

According to the news media, the deliveries restarted once the new bracket was welded. The numbers that chgofam78 has indicate indicate that the delivery process may now be underway, since the stories talked about 250 cars having previously been delivered, 240 with the defect, but you can't expect absolute precision in such stories.

Go back to the original Tribune story.

[sw4400]

Let's do a quick review here:

• Brake issues which might've caused loss of braking
• Wheel defect from Chinese Manufacturer which might've caused a derailment
• Weld defect which posed no safety issue, but needed to be repaired and will be done so on the 240 out of 250 with it.

Are we done with the defects now, Bombardier? I don't think you're scoring major points with the CTA in the defect regard here. I personally hope this is it and all defect-issues are over with now.

[chicagopcclcar]

Let's do a quick review here:

• Brake issues which might've caused loss of braking
• Wheel defect from Chinese Manufacturer which might've caused a derailment
• Weld defect which posed no safety issue, but needed to be repaired and will be done so on the 240 out of 250 with it.

Are we done with the defects now, Bombardier? I don't think you're scoring major points with the CTA in the defect regard here. I personally hope this is it and all defect-issues are over with now.

Good summary, but in addition, a comparison with other transit cars produced by Bombardier elsewhere would be needed to really gauge should more defects be expected or has the CTA project exceeded their norm.

[See Tea Eh]

Good summary, but in addition, a comparison with other transit cars produced by Bombardier elsewhere would be needed to really gauge should more defects be expected or has the CTA project exceeded their norm.

As well as cars produced by other manufacturers for different systems. Defects in all-new designs are not new. Heck, defects in existing designs happens.

I remember one case, about 7 or 8 years ago where a new fleet of New Flyer low-floor buses at an agency in Canada had to be sidelined because of problems with the wheelchair ramp. This despite the fact that New Flyer had been building low-floor buses with wheelchair ramps for over 10 years by that point. So, are we done with production defects NOW, New Flyer? Apparently not, because I was also told of another case just this year where a fleet of brand-new buses was delayed in entry into service, and then only with restrictions on using the kneeling feature because of some issue that could potentially cause a serious problem in service (I don't know the specifics, but I think it has to do with the brake interlock not working when the bus is kneeled, potentially allowing the bus to move while kneeled). This, of course, despite New Flyer now having 20+ years of experience building low-floor buses with kneeling features.

People aren't perfect. Processes aren't perfect. Problems occur. You deal with it and you move on. That's what's happening here. It seems those not familiar with how the industry works expect there to be such thing as a perfect, defect-free vehicle. It's not going to happen, no matter what manufacturer you choose, and no matter how mature the design.

[jajuan]

Good summary, but in addition, a comparison with other transit cars produced by Bombardier elsewhere would be needed to really gauge should more defects be expected or has the CTA project exceeded their norm.

Good point. Even with each TA being pretty much a custom customer with each order a rail company gets, we still want take care we're not unknowingly making apples and oranges comparisons or putting our own exaggerated spin on what's been found or is going on here.

[Busjack]

...

People aren't perfect. Processes aren't perfect. Problems occur. You deal with it and you move on. That's what's happening here. It seems those not familiar with how the industry works expect there to be such thing as a perfect, defect-free vehicle. It's not going to happen, no matter what manufacturer you choose, and no matter how mature the design.

Besides that, all contracts have provisions re fleet defects, which wouldn't be necessary if there weren't any.

The distinguishing features here are (1) Bombardier doesn't seem to have the level of defects that NABI did nor Hyundai-Rotem reportedly did and (2) inspectors are on this job, and reportedly Bombardier is complying with its warranty obligations, as opposed to the NABI situation where prior CTA management messed up by conditionally accepting the buses and sending the inspectors late, and NABI lied in its press release about intending to inspect and fix the buses.

[chicagopcclcar]

I don't know how many have access to Railway Age, the time honored publication for persons in the field, but in their June 11, 2013, issue they covered the Bombardier "welds" story.

Bombardier resumes CTA car delivery

Written by Douglas John Bowen

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2

Bombardier Transportation

Delivery of Chicago Transit Authority's 5000 Series transit cars resumed last week after being suspended this spring, reportedly due to quality control issues at Bombardier Transportation's facilities in Plattsburgh, N.Y.

"During a quality assurance audit, we discovered that the welding work on the end frames of the CTA 5000 Series cars did not fully conform to the provisions of our 'assembly book' for those cars," Bombardier Transportation spokeswoman Maryanne Roberts told Railway Age Tuesday, June 11.

"We inspected the cars at our manufacturing plant in Plattsburgh, N.Y., as well as cars already delivered to Chicago, and determined that many of the approximately 275 cars already manufactured were nonconforming," Roberts said.

Bombardier inspectors discovered the problem last month, according to CTA officials interviewed by the Chicago Tribune. Bombardier and CTA already have agreed on a plan to correct the problem Regular shipments will total 20 cars per month, officials from both entities have said. CTA has ordered 706 Series 500 cars from Bombardier.

"Bombardier and CTA (have) worked closely together to establish a corrective action plan," Roberts said. "Car shipments resumed on June 5th. Bombardier will repair the cars already in Chicago beginning on or about July 8th."

CTA officials told the Tribune incomplete welds were found in 240 of the 250 rail cars delivered so far. Those cars will remain in service as the fleet is repaired; CTA said safety was not an issue, according to CTA and engineering consultant Parsons Brinckerhoff on the 5000 Series procurement, Parsons Brinckerhoff, determined.

Both CTA and Bombardier stressed that passenger safety was not at risk. "As the nonconformity would not result in a failure under the collision load cases described in the CTA 5000 Series Technical Specification and did not pose a risk to passenger safety, CTA kept the cars in service. However, car deliveries were halted while the production-related issue was fully investigated" Bombardier's Roberts said, adding, "The cars were 'over-designed' to ensure many years of reliable service at CTA, and the cars have been performing well in revenue service. "

Said CTA spokesman Brian Steele, "Computerized stress analysis verified that all the existing welds are sufficient to ensure the integrity of the rail cars under various load and collision test scenarios."

The fix mutually agreed to involves removing part of the rail car interior wall and installing a second bracket with welds, instead of fully disassembling the corners of the cars and adding a third set of welds to the existing brackets, Steele said. The result will be even greater structural protection, he said.

CTA and Bombardier unveiled the first new 5000-series car in November 2009, putting it into service on CTA’s Pink Line.

[New Flyer]

5245-46, 5249-50, 5251-52, 5253-54, 5257-58 all on the Red Line today

[BusHunter]

#5255-56 was on the Red line today. At Skokie Shops there's only 2 cars both singles waiting to be mated.

[eyetube21]

#5255-56 was on the Red line today. At Skokie Shops there's only 2 cars both singles waiting to be mated.

Does the Green Line will get some more 5000s from the Red Line, while the Red Line get more 5000s?

[chgofan78]

#5255-56 was on the Red line today. At Skokie Shops there's only 2 cars both singles waiting to be mated.

5259-5260 were sitting in Howard yard today.

[BusHunter]

Does the Green Line will get some more 5000s from the Red Line, while the Red Line get more 5000s?

There probably just rotating a few cars over so they can work on the defective welds.