And the next garage to get New Flyers is...

[CircleSeven]

Well, I live within a mile and some change from the Kedzie Garage and I was thrilled from last May when they received the New Flyer Buses after Archer had them. Since that process, they moved all of the Flx-6000s buses to 103rd with in 6 months after and I regret the CTA for doing that. But with a major overflow with those newer buses, the buses had to go somewhere, huh?

Anyway, like I said before I do not have anything against 74th Garage getting the newer buses, I'm just saying why wouldn't have one model bus garage? I still think that the Flx-6000s are still the best buses right now which will end up being the oldest buses in the fleet after they retire the other Flx Metro 5300 and those god-awful slow TMCs. The Glen has the last of the Nova's, like I said before why cant they be next after North Park to get the New Flyers and ship all of those 6000s south. The only bus route that cause the most problems over there is the 85 Central especially going south to the terminal at Columbus Park near Loretto Hospital. You go to the south side and you have the most problems with Vandalism and alot of littering including some drivers that eat on the buses. Why put some new buses to an area where people would litter and vandalize. I believe that the last Garage that should get the buses should be 103rd because of my example. And I mean come on, the service workers that work in the Garage can do so much to keep their buses on state of good repair but if you end up having people vandalize and break windows on buses and even those JC Decaux Shelters which CTA have spent millions with those things, why would you have them in those areas if passengers and residents who live in areas where they do that, have all of that good stuff. But that's up to your alderman.

But right now, I'm happy we have better buses around my area. Kedzie came a very long way to get newer buses and the better signs were when they became the 3rd Garage to received the NABI Buses in 2004. Once they replace those darn TMCs and those wraggety Flx-5300s, they will get the rest of the New Flyers and they will end up only having three-model buses. 2 New Flyers models including the one Hybrid model and the NABI's.

So overall, I'm hoping for the best for the CTA to manage to make the rest of those newer New Flyer Buses but overall I want to see 103rd being the last to get the New Flyers. And I really want the Glen to be next.

[rmadisonwi]

The upkeep of a bus has to do with maintenance.

You can find graffiti on any bus, in any part of the system. If it's caught right away and cleaned up quickly, the bus will look good. If it's left untouched, it will encourage others to add their mark, because it shows that nobody cares and nothing will be done.

As for the JC Decaux shelters, JC Decaux pays to maintain them in exchange for getting the advertising revenue. Even if they are vandalized, it's not CTA's responsibility to fix them.

I don't know why you hate the "south side" so much, but this isn't the forum for those kinds of rants.

[Busjack]

Anyway, like I said before I do not have anything against 74th Garage getting the newer buses, I'm just saying why wouldn't have one model bus garage?

Maybe if you read and understood my prior post.

Lke [sic] I said before why cant [sic] they be next after North Park to get the New Flyers and ship all of those 6000s south.

Busangel and Trainman explained that.

You go to the south side and you have the most problems with Vandalism and alot [sic] of littering including some drivers that eat on the buses. Why put some new buses to an area where people would litter and vandalize. I believe that the last Garage that should get the buses should be 103rd because of my example.

So overall, I'm hoping for the best for the CTA to manage to make the rest of those newer New Flyer Buses but overall I want to see 103rd being the last to get the New Flyers. And I really want the Glen to be next.

So what is your explanation for 77th, which is on the south side, usually getting new equipment first? (It received the first 4400s, first 6000s, and first 6400s in exchange for about 80 of its then 110 6000s, and also new 7500s and 1000s). The neighborhoods served by 103rd (such as Beverly, Morgan Park, Jeffrey Manor, and Pullman) are much better than where 77th is located. But, because 103rd didn't wear out their 5300s so fast, most of them in the 5300-5399 range were transferred to 77th, so 77th could get new buses under the theory that "we're replacing the 1991 Flxibles first" and then 103rd got all of the cast offs from Archer and Kedzie, which, now you say, 103rd should keep until last, while Forest Glen's buses have an much lower average age. You make no sense.

[trainman8119]

The only bus route that cause the most problems over there is the 85 Central especially going south to the terminal at Columbus Park near Loretto Hospital. You go to the south side and you have the most problems with Vandalism

The problem then was not buses running down Central and turning around at Loretto Hospital. In fact the majority of the problem, which was brought out in the article, was that a bunch of gang bangers got into the yard and went to town. It devistated the maintenance staff there, as at the time, Forest Glen was regarded as one of the cleaner garages in the system. Along with that, it was outlined that the school trips along Milwaukee ave were also a major target. From those incidents, along with a few from Curie HS (Archer Garage) came the cameras installed on buses, the first being on the Flxibles that were trashed. After that, more cameras were installed and are now used to ticket cars...along with some good things, like helping to track down stalkers and shooters on buses.

As for Forest Glen getting New Flyers. As I stated before, they got over 100 Novas and basically retrofitted the entire fleet there. They should be the last to get new buses, after 74 and 103.

[CircleSeven]

The upkeep of a bus has to do with maintenance.

You can find graffiti on any bus, in any part of the system. If it's caught right away and cleaned up quickly, the bus will look good. If it's left untouched, it will encourage others to add their mark, because it shows that nobody cares and nothing will be done.

As for the JC Decaux shelters, JC Decaux pays to maintain them in exchange for getting the advertising revenue. Even if they are vandalized, it's not CTA's responsibility to fix them.

I don't know why you hate the "south side" so much, but this isn't the forum for those kinds of rants.

First of all, I have abosolutely nothing against the south side. I have relatives that live on the south and far south side (The wild-wild hundreds to be exact). And I don't hate the south side. I can tell you a whole lot of stories about any buses & bus routes I rode on in this city and the suburbs as to come to passengers and drivers on these buses including the buses.

And I didn't know JC Decaux has to pay to get the shelters into those bus stops to get revenue. If that was the case, why not all of those shelters have the advertisements on them?

So what is your explanation for 77th, which is on the south side, usually getting new equipment first? (It received the first 4400s, first 6000s, and first 6400s in exchange for about 80 of its then 110 6000s, and also new 7500s and 1000s). The neighborhoods served by 103rd (such as Beverly, Morgan Park, Jeffrey Manor, and Pullman) are much better than where 77th is located. But, because 103rd didn't wear out their 5300s so fast, most of them in the 5300-5399 range were transferred to 77th, so 77th could get new buses under the theory that "we're replacing the 1991 Flxibles first" and then 103rd got all of the cast offs from Archer and Kedzie, which, now you say, 103rd should keep until last, while Forest Glen's buses have an much lower average age. You make no sense.

Well, if I'm not making any sense, that's your POV. But I'm not going to change what I said either. The Flxs move south, The Glen should be next after NP even though some of you want the Glen to be last because they have better buses over there with less maintenance problems. Let the south deal with the Flxs until '09. It ain't like they won't get the new buses. The Glen never had any sort of New Flyer buses. Maybe the old Flyers but not the New Flyers. What might happen will be this before the Glen gets it, Kedzie and Chicago has a bit left of Flx-5300s and Kedzie have the rest of the TMCs. Maybe NP would get at least 50 for now, Kedzie might get 20 more replacing all the rest of their old Flxs and Chicago might get a lil' bit more. And then North Park will get the rest of those buses to take most of their capacity. That would replace all of the older TMCs. Then what should happen after that, As the Glen get the New Flyers, send the Flx-6000s south to 103rd replacing the 5300s and some of their slow TMCs and to 74th replacing their TMCs. And what's left with the Glen's Flx's, they could send them to 77th. But I don't think the rest of the south side is ready for them right now. That's my POV.

[Busjack]

Well, if I'm not making any sense, that's your POV. ... That's my POV.

Well, I guess that anyone can dismiss an argument by saying it is opinion. As was previously discussed, an opinion can't be true or false, and you are entitled to believe what you want. However, as Roe Conn also said today, an opinion should be based on fact. (Roe said "Rosie just throws out her opinion, such as that steel can't melt, and there is nothing to back it up.") Also, an opinion can't be persuasive if it is based on inconsistent reasoning, and yours is. Your statement that you have nothing against the South Side is totally inconsistent with your prior view that the South Side shouldn't get new equipment because it vandalizes its buses, when trainman demonstrated that an adequate number were vandalized at Forest Glen, which you think should get new buses, even though some routes on the South Side have not seen a new bus for 12 years, and, as far as you are concerned, shouldn't see a new one for at least another three. Also, you didn't bother to answer the question why 77th should always get new buses, if it is on the South Side. If your scenario plays out, are you going to guarantee that 103rd and 74th will get the next 400 unordered buses, or would you say, if they are ordered in 2011, that "the Novas at FG are worn out; send them to the South Side and give us the new ones"?

Buslover88 keeps saying that I am mean, but I wonder about the current state of education, if the purpose of the Internet is to propagate misspelled, ungrammatical, and illogical discourse. That's my POV, and you may ask your English teacher about that.

[CircleSeven]

Well, I guess that anyone can dismiss an argument by saying it is opinion. As was previously discussed, an opinion can't be true or false, and you are entitled to believe what you want. However, as Roe Conn also said today, an opinion should be based on fact. (Roe said "Rosie just throws out her opinion, such as that steel can't melt, and there is nothing to back it up.") Also, an opinion can't be persuasive if it is based on inconsistent reasoning, and yours is. Your statement that you have nothing against the South Side is totally inconsistent with your prior view that the South Side shouldn't get new equipment because it vandalizes its buses, when trainman demonstrated that an adequate number were vandalized at Forest Glen, which you think should get new buses, even though some routes on the South Side have not seen a new bus for 12 years, and, as far as you are concerned, shouldn't see a new one for at least another three. Also, you didn't bother to answer the question why 77th should always get new buses, if it is on the South Side. If your scenario plays out, are you going to guarantee that 103rd and 74th will get the next 400 unordered buses, or would you say, if they are ordered in 2011, that "the Novas at FG are worn out; send them to the South Side and give us the new ones"?

Buslover88 keeps saying that I am mean, but I wonder about the current state of education, if the purpose of the Internet is to propagate misspelled, ungrammatical, and illogical discourse. That's my POV, and you may ask your English teacher about that.

Well, I can't answer that question about why 'The Big House' always gets the newer buses. They even debut the New Flyer 1000 series at 77th before moving that bus to Archer with the start of the delivery in early 2006. You should ask CTA about that. But I don't work for the CTA so again, you should ask the folks from the CTA about that. I'm not going to repeat what I said. But I'm not going to gaurantee that "one-0-three" and the Garage at 74th & Wood will get the 400 future buses. Hell, 103 could get a New Flyer bus tomorrow if all I care. But I'm sticking with everything I stated at this time. And I'm not backing down. Look at North Park, they were in "Hot Need" for those Buses for the longest. They have the earliest of the TMC buses. I wished they can retire the TNCs and send them to Cuba quick instead of the Flx 5300s even though they didn't have a mid life overhaul like the TMCs. CTA is so lucky that they don't have alot of 5300s left because I really wanted those TMCs to go first. Well that's only the tip of the iceberg of CTA problems. About you said about the second part of the question as to if the Nova's get worned out and those buses would moved south and the Glen get some new style buses? Yes that's is what I'm saying. The North Side should always get the Newer Buses and send the leftovers far South to 103.

The West Side which is the part of Chicago where I live at, in about a year or so or when they retire all of the old 1990-1991 buses, they will have their entire two fleets with Newer Buses. That's a good thing. And yes Kedzie also had alot of Vandalizm and alot of crime issues in the west side. But the newer buses have helped in the west side completely.

[Busjack]

"worned" out "alot of Vandalizm and alot" "abosolutely"

See what I mean about grammar and spelling.

... The North Side should always get the Newer Buses and send the leftovers far South to 103.

The West Side which is the part of Chicago where I live at, in about a year or so or when they retire all of the old 1990-1991 buses, they will have their entire two fleets with Newer Buses. That's a good thing. And yes Kedzie also had of crime issues in the west side. But the newer buses have helped in the west side completely.

So, essentially, your statements that "I have abosolutely [sic] nothing against the south side." and "First of all, I have nothing against having those New Flyers at 74th" are insincere, if not total fabrications. I was absolutely right about your hypocritical stance and that you really believe that the south side should only have junk.

You say that you live on the west side. Then what is your interest in whatever buses Forest Glen has, especially since you said "The only bus route that cause [sic] the most problems over there is the 85 Central especially going south to the terminal at Columbus Park near Loretto Hospital," which is apparently closer to where you live than to the south side? I thought Kedzie got the shaft with the forced swap of 6000s with Forest Glen, but with people like you living on the west side, maybe Kedzie should have been the last to get anything new. "But the newer buses have helped in the west side completely." Either the south side is entitled to be helped, or did they help the west side by giving your neighbors "fresh canvases" to draw graffiti?

And what goes around comes around. With the prior bus swapping between FG and K, don't be surprised that if FG gets New Flyers, Kedzie gets back the 6000s it originally had and traded to FG. I don't know that that will happen, but don't sit there smug thinking the west side will get all new equipment. Kedzie has no greater entitlement to have its TMCs exchanged for new equipment than 103 or 74 (in fact, less, since you already have maybe 160 new buses, between the 7600s and 1100s, and they have none of the 1000s).

Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. should also come after you, like he did against Metra. He represents the south side, you know, and his official home is in an area where the buses come from 74th and 103rd. Your possible next President, Barak Obama, is from the south side, too. Be careful who you alienate.

Finally, do you work for Channel 7? You sure aren't Ron Magers or Karen Jordan. ABC should sue you for infringing their trademark.

[CircleSeven]

Well like I stated before, I can't speculate where the buses will go at this point. That's up to the CTA to decide on whether the newer buses go. I'm just staying my opinion just like you have yours. That's all. What's really important now is whether if they will follow through with the last options to get the rest of the New Flyers. And whether if lawmakers in Springfield will bail out the CTA with new funding so we can finally see some improvements here in the City of Chicago. And if another garage gets the newer buses, you know very well that they will be doing a whole lot of bus swapping all around the city anyway. And if 103rd be the next one to get them, good for them. But I'm not a psychic and know in the top of my head which next garage will get them. I'm just suggesting. I'm not making a big hypothesis on this either. I'm just stating my POV. That is it. Yeah we could've been last too. Kedzie is not all that good either with maintaining the proper maintenance either. I mean, before they even brought the New Flyers to Kedzie, most of their buses were broken down at an average of 3 a day on various streets that Kedzie is served including Roosevelt, Kedzie, Kimball-homan, 26th & Cermak among other streets. I rode alot of routes from the 103rd Garage including Jeffery and the 95E along with their nightcar and I had experience buses getting broken down almost frequently at 103rd. But how about it they hault further delivery of the newer buses for now and maybe for the next two or three years. You can't replace the TMCs or even what's left of the 5300s. So what I'm trying to say that a bus is a bus. And if 103rd gets the 1000s Tomorrow, then that will be a giant plus for them.

[rmadisonwi]

First of all, please use paragraphs (hit the "Enter" key twice to insert a blank line). It makes messages much easier to read.

Secondly, if poor maintenance meant a garage shouldn't get new buses, then North Park and 77th should be the last two garages to get any new buses. Those garages have breakdowns far more often than Kedzie and some of the other garages do (even when comparing the same model amongst different garages, such as artics at North Park vs. Kedzie).

Third, if delivery of new buses was halted, the 5300s and 4400s would just continue to fall apart and the fleet would basically shrink. Most of those buses are at the end of their lives and really can't last much longer.

In all, whatever your position is (opinion, suggestion, hope, whatever you want to call it), it's inconsistent and doesn't really make any sense.

[busangel]

FYI: FG will not get flyers because they have no TMCs or 5300s. They won't get any more new buses until the 6000s retire.

FYI: NP will recieve the next batch of flyers because their 5800 flyers are burning up and their TMCs are the oldest.

FYI: 103rd will recieve flyers by the end of the year and then 74th will recieve the first option 2 flyers after 103rd.

Note: All this info. is true and real because I have family members and friends working for the CTA

[Busjack]

Note: All this info. is true and real because I have family members and friends working for the CTA

Since we've discussed before how garage banter is not necessarily reliable (a driver at NP incorrectly said that they would get them in January, apparently before C), do you mind telling us their positions with the CTA, so we can tell if they are "in the know?"

However, given how things have gone up to now, this at least appears credible.

[qwantae]

I Know I've Asked This Too many times before but will 103 get the new flyers

Now I've rode 6018 Flxible on #67 which appears from 74th garage, so what, the 74th garage is now getting more Flxibles especially from Kedzie and Forest Glen, its crazy. So, Forest Glen is probably next for New Flyers, then part of North Park.

[qwantae]

My only concern is that I don't think many 4400's will retire, at least anytime soon. Since the high brass explained for "fleet expansion", they probably meant additional buses used for brown line expansion.

With that being said, I will say that NP will get new buses to add on to their fleet, followed by 74. They'll get rid of whatever 5300's are remaining (or at least the bad ones), but the 4400's they'll keep for awhile (until the brown line construction is over).

Well, I hope they'll keep 4400's because they are my favorite ones and they have newest A/C.

[rmadisonwi]

Some Forest Glen 6000s (the ex-Kedzies) have gone down to 74th Garage, to replace a few 4400s. Forest Glen no longer needs those extra buses because of a reduction in three-track extra service (in fact, there are no more extras out of Forest Glen).

[Busjack]

Well, I hope they'll keep 4400's because they are my favorite ones and they have newest A/C.

We get the point. You have an unnatural attraction to RTSs and you can't spell. And apparently you share the fantasy with whomever it is on the WLS-TV team that FG is the next to get 1000s.

[Busjack]

Forest Glen no longer needs those extra buses because of a reduction in three-track extra service (in fact, there are no more extras out of Forest Glen).

We can extrapolate a few things from this that even put doubt in the Board Presentation, no less the "sage prognostications" here. The Press Release says: "Since 1999, the CTA bus fleet has grown 18 percent, from 1,877 buses to its current total of 2,212." However, a good chunk of this increase was in anticipation of bus ridership demand based on Dan Ryan and Brown Line construction. If the goal were only to replace the 5300s, that would have been completed a long time ago (since from when the replacements started with the last of the NABIs, CTA has received about 550 buses, and there were only 470 5300s). Thus, one can concur that the fleet has grown. On the other hand, the two construction projects mentioned above will be done by or in 2009, when the last of the New Flyers should be delivered. Unless there are plans to shut down the North Side Main or O'Hare Extensions for maintenance work that was discovered to be necessary for the first time last August, CTA will not need a fleet that large. Hence, I wouldn't concur with the statement in the presentation that "even after award of options, CTA will still have 400 buses with an average age of 14 yrs." Karnak the Magnificent says maybe 200.

Also, if we take the statement in the presentation at face value, CTA staff does not now contemplate replacing 5800s, as busangel implied, as there were originally only a total of 395 buses received in 1995 (330 6000s and 65 5800s; maybe you can throw in the 3 5900s, but RIPTA had them on the scrap line). But, as you note, I have questioned the presentation.

[cta5658]

hows about 74 send their 6300s to 103 to replace their tmc buses

[trainman8119]

hows about 74 send their 6300s to 103 to replace their tmc buses

I have a novel idea !!! How about instead of running buses all over the city, wasting money, fuel, time and manpower, 74th keeps their 6300's. New Flyers, when the time comes, could replace 103's TMC's and also 74th's TMC's when the time comes. Why is it that eveyone has to move buses from point a to point b. Replace the oldest with the newest !!!! No wonder the CTA is broke !!!!!!! With all the fuel wasted moving this stuff around all the time you could probably afford actually run a rush hour route !!!!

[Busjack]

hows about 74 send their 6300s to 103 to replace their tmc buses

Here I sort of agree, in that 103rd should have its share of 1000s, and some 6000s. Since buses are delivered to a garage about 112 at a time, there would be a few.

What I don't agree with is the current line of thought that because 74th, 103rd, and North Park got screwed when the 4000 series MANs that they had were replaced [by Novas being assigned to other garages and 74, 103, and NP getting the overflow 4400s], let's change the rules and screw those neighborhoods again (as certain FG supporters advocated above).

The one thing I do not want to hear is that Archer and Chicago are entitled to any new buses until 2013 (when their Novas have reached their life expectancy). So now that apparently those garages will have only 6400s and 1000s, they should not be moved around so that those two garages can get new buses until what they have is ready to be replaced in place. What I would consider equitable is that (excluding NP because it has the 1995 5800s), since there are about 300 or so 6000s and 7 garages, each should get about 45 (about how the 1600s, 9800s, and 4000s) were handled. However, since A and C are or soon will be all low floor, that won't happen.

Also, note that if the contingency plan (or scare tactic) goes into effect, about 400 buses will not be needed, so if the TMCs are replaced, there would be no need for the 1995 buses, rendering all of this academic.

[RIPTA42]

Well, I can't answer that question about why 'The Big House' always gets the newer buses. They even debut the New Flyer 1000 series at 77th before moving that bus to Archer with the start of the delivery in early 2006.

Wild guess: in the event of a fleet defect, they're conveniently located next to the heavy maintenance shop.

[Busjack]

Wild guess: in the event of a fleet defect, they're conveniently located next to the heavy maintenance shop.

That theory didn't work so well with the 7500s, which is the only fleet that seems to have massive defects, but was first assigned to 103rd and North Park to replace 7300s.

All I know is that when they announce new buses (for 77th) they always say that King Drive gets them first. Was Dorothy Tillman or the Stroger 8th Ward machine steering them (and I don't mean driving )? Like I have previously mentioned, is it coincidence that Archer serves the 11th and 14th Ward?

Seriously, with 77th there is the possibility that it is a large barn and wears its equipment out first.

[sw4400]

The one thing I do not want to hear is that Archer and Chicago are entitled to any new buses until 2013 (when their Novas have reached their life expectancy).

The NOVA's should be getting a mid-life overhaul somtime around there, they shouldn't be retired until about 2019(18th service year). The CTA has retired all of it's buses around the 18 year mark, the Americanas, D901's, and soon to be 5300's Metros and the TMC RTS's.

[Busjack]

The NOVA's should be getting a mid-life overhaul somtime around there, they shouldn't be retired until about 2019(18th service year). The CTA has retired all of it's buses around the 18 year mark, the Americanas, D901's, and soon to be 5300's Metros and the TMC RTS's.

True. I was referring to the FTA life expectancy. But, if you want to put it off, fine with me.

[sw4400]

True. I was referring to the FTA life expectancy. But, if you want to put it off, fine with me.

Busjack,

You are a very knowledgeable person, and I respect the knowledge you bring to this board. There are some articles or comments you put up that I disagree with. Most of the time, the reason I disagree it's because of the way an article or comment is worded. Take this most recent one for example...

The one thing I do not want to hear is that Archer and Chicago are entitled to any new buses until 2013 (when their Novas have reached their life expectancy).

Reading this, it didn't say anything about the FTA life expectancy, which made me think you were referring to when the CTA would retire them.