The Breakdown Thread

[Bridgeportbus]

On 1549 now on #62 archer. The transmission is shot. Terrible grinding sound between gear shifts. Doubt this bus is going to finish it's run today.

[ethan2226]

Last Thursday on #6733 on the #76 Diversey, it was hot in the bus at the Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum around 11:10 AM. We switched buses to #8277

[BusHunter]

8 minutes ago, ethan2226 said:

Last Thursday on #6733 on the #76 Diversey, it was hot in the bus at the Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum around 11:10 AM. We switched buses to #8277

Those #8200's are so hot I fear you didn't do much better. There's a good seat by the back door though as the back door area has the best passenger AC.

BTW, #1755 had a problem yesterday. The destination on Addison said Harlem but the bus was going to Cumberland. Being I was the only rider at Harlem I asked the operator is he going to Cumberland which he said yes. The Clever devices said Cumberland but not the sign. Looked like he was trying to fix it but it was no dice.

[ethan2226]

13 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Those #8200's are so hot I fear you didn't do much better. There's a good seat by the back door though as the back door area has the best passenger AC.

BTW, #1755 had a problem yesterday. The destination on Addison said Harlem but the bus was going to Cumberland. Being I was the only rider at Harlem I asked the operator is he going to Cumberland which he said yes. The Clever devices said Cumberland but not the sign. Looked like he was trying to fix it but it was no dice.

AC was broken on #6733

[pudgym29]

While zipping around on the south side Thursday, northbound on the route #X9 Ashland Express bus, we pulled up to this #9 Ashland bus out of service at 74th St.

[jajuan]

12 hours ago, pudgym29 said:

While zipping around on the south side Thursday, northbound on the route #X9 Ashland Express bus, we pulled up to this #9 Ashland bus out of service at 74th St.

Since it was sitting at 74th, it's possible that it was waiting for a relief driver that was late or never showed and not actually broken down. That is the relief point for the 9/X9 after all with 74th Garage being just two blocks to the west.

[transit kid 12]

So I dropped by South Shops today to take a look at some old Novas, Opuses (Opi?), etc, and what do I find? 700, one of the two all-electric buses, sitting (possibly stored) with some fire damage. Anyone know what happened, and when it did? I don't think it's been too long since I've seen it in service, next thing I know it's deep into the storage lot, even near the two old Flxibles...I got some shots, take a look:

[Busjack]

No, but it's too far back to be a brake or tire fire. However, your second picture indicates that it is more than superficial damage.

[Busjack]

I'll throw out some bits of pure speculation, though:

From what @transit kid 12  said, this was in the dead lot on the Stewart side, not the Heavy Maintenance building at 79th and Vincennes.

It could have been a fire in an electric motor or some other expensive electrical component.

If that's the case, CTA again showed its talent at blowing $1.1 million of taxpayers' money.

[sw4400]

14 hours ago, transit kid 12 said:

So I dropped by South Shops today to take a look at some old Novas, Opuses (Opi?), etc, and what do I find? 700, one of the two all-electric buses, sitting (possibly stored) with some fire damage. Anyone know what happened, and when it did? I don't think it's been too long since I've seen it in service, next thing I know it's deep into the storage lot, even near the two old Flxibles...I got some shots, take a look:

Looks like possibly a fire in one of those Lithium batteries. Probably swelled up and popped, sparking a fire. That's the downside to the electric buses, and why they are in their infancy still.... reliability and safety years past their batteries' useful life. These buses are 3 years old and a Lithium batteries' lifespan is 2-3 years. My battery on my S4 was running great before I retired it(phone wasn't making calls, kept dropping them). I pulled the battery and found it rather swollen.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, sw4400 said:

Looks like possibly a fire in one of those Lithium batteries. Probably swelled up and popped, sparking a fire. That's the downside to the electric buses, and why they are in their infancy still.... reliability and safety years past their batteries' useful life. These buses are 3 years old and a Lithium batteries' lifespan is 2-3 years. My battery on my S4 was running great before I retired it(phone wasn't making calls, kept dropping them). I pulled the battery and found it rather swollen.

They are volatile, but the queation is whether the are there in addition to on the roof.

[garmon757]

The burning of #700 will be in this topic. Carry on. 

[BusHunter]

On 9/24/2017 at 0:13 AM, transit kid 12 said:

So I dropped by South Shops today to take a look at some old Novas, Opuses (Opi?), etc, and what do I find? 700, one of the two all-electric buses, sitting (possibly stored) with some fire damage. Anyone know what happened, and when it did? I don't think it's been too long since I've seen it in service, next thing I know it's deep into the storage lot, even near the two old Flxibles...I got some shots, take a look:

Hmm... very interesting. You guys sound right with your detective work. Too far back for a brake fire too far forward for an engine, but right about where the batteries are. A schematic would prove it though. If so alot of the car companies I believe have extended warranties on the batteries, so I don't know why that wouldn't hold true for a bus.  It may be waiting on warranty work from New Flyer.  Don't know what happened to the 20 something electric bus order but if NF becomes the winner of that bid it may be in their best interest to fix this problem even if it costs them money just to maintain it's good image. They can make more money on a good image than a bad one. I'm sure if this goes south CTA wouldn't hesitate to say what happened if it's battery related. Little rumors can break a company, or at least hurt it especially if the competition doesn't have an issue also. Now I need to see how frequent these fires are on the electric buses and whose having them. Time to put on the detective hat once again!!

 

[BusHunter]

A quick look at this on the net shows alot of hong kong based buses having problems with the ultra capacitors overheating but most of the fire pictures show a bigger path of destruction. My gut tells me it's not a battery fire unless it caught fire in front of a fire station. No fires I could see so far from NF, it just seems the overseas manufacturers are having this issue.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1063473_chinese-electric-bus-catches-fire-on-road-not-the-first-one

[Busjack]

19 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

A quick look at this on the net shows alot of hong kong based buses having problems with the ultra capacitors overheating but most of the fire pictures show a bigger path of destruction. My gut tells me it's not a battery fire unless it caught fire in front of a fire station. No fires I could see so far from NF, it just seems the overseas manufacturers are having this issue.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1063473_chinese-electric-bus-catches-fire-on-road-not-the-first-one

Aside from this being from a while ago, the article points out:

Buses that use ultra-capacitors are fundamentally different from electric cars sold in the U.S., including the 2011 Chevrolet Volt and 2011 Nissan Leaf, which store energy in lithium-ion battery packs that charge at much slower rates.

Those vehicles do not use ultracapacitors, which do not store nearly as much energy but can deliver very high power very quickly.

Some quick back-of-the-envelope calculations indicate that the ultracapacitors may recharge at 182 kilowatts, far quicker than any electric car on the market.

What's on 700 is similar to what's in the electric cars, except I don't know what the charging rate is of the 2 chargers in the garages.

Also, what went off in China was under the seats, not something in the engine compartment.

But since this said it had to do with charging, I'm surprised we didn't see anything in the mainstream media about this fire. Maybe it happened in the garage and that's how it was contained to something less than the 4333 fire.

[Busjack]

35 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

If so alot of the car companies I believe have extended warranties on the batteries, so I don't know why that wouldn't hold true for a bus.  It may be waiting on warranty work from New Flyer. 

One would figure that there is some sort of warranty on the bus, although I don't seem to have downloaded the specs. But I'm not convinced this is where the batteries are.

But you seem to take it as though it were the 3 year replacement warranty on a dead Die Hard battery, while whatever happened is analogous to iPhones and Samsung Galaxy phones exploding.

But I am also surprised that if it is a warranty issue, it is out in the dead lot instead of somewhere insides.

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Aside from this being from a while ago, the article points out:

Buses that use ultra-capacitors are fundamentally different from electric cars sold in the U.S., including the 2011 Chevrolet Volt and 2011 Nissan Leaf, which store energy in lithium-ion battery packs that charge at much slower rates.

Those vehicles do not use ultracapacitors, which do not store nearly as much energy but can deliver very high power very quickly.

Some quick back-of-the-envelope calculations indicate that the ultracapacitors may recharge at 182 kilowatts, far quicker than any electric car on the market.

What's on 700 is similar to what's in the electric cars, except I don't know what the charging rate is of the 2 chargers in the garages.

Also, what went off in China was under the seats, not something in the engine compartment.

But since this said it had to do with charging, I'm surprised we didn't see anything in the mainstream media about this fire. Maybe it happened in the garage and that's how it was contained to something less than the 4333 fire.

Well if it did happen at the garage, then it probably is related to the charging system or batteries. They should have plenty of fire fighting equipment at the garage, there's supposed to be an extinguisher in every bus. This would explain why the fire wasn't fierce, but an explosion would have taken out multiple components. 

When I was talking in terms of warranty on electric cars the battery could be warrantied for up to 8 years, but just the battery because that's an expensive repair at least 2K. This way it gets more people into the showroom versus scared away.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

When I was talking in terms of warranty on electric cars the battery could be warrantied for up to 8 years, but just the battery because that's an expensive repair at least 2K. This way it gets more people into the showroom versus scared away.

Buf the point is that that warranty is against the need to repace  the battery pack because it goes dead, not against the car cat hing on fire. The way you are talking, a 2008 Prius catching on fire is not something for which the manufacturer should be liable. As the Tekata air bag litigation shows, it doesn't work that way, although the bus fire may be distinguishable in that personal injury does not appear to be involved. 

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Buf the point is that that warranty is against the need to repace  the battery pack because it goes dead, not against the car cat hing on fire. The way you are talking, a 2008 Prius catching on fire is not something for which the manufacturer should be liable. As the Tekata air bag litigation shows, it doesn't work that way, although the bus fire may be distinguishable in that personal injury does not appear to be involved. 

Yeah but if a defect exists its the builders liability. That's where I stand. Its a warranty and that's what warranties are for. If it's your fault like you had an accident bursting the battery then that's different.

[dann]

15 hours ago, BusHunter said:

My gut tells me it's not a battery fire unless it caught fire in front of a fire station. No fires I could see so far from NF, it just seems the overseas manufacturers are having this issue.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1063473_chinese-electric-bus-catches-fire-on-road-not-the-first-one

I think it is a battery fire. It’s on obviously a larger scale than the Samsung Galaxy battery fires and it’s fortunate that it apparently occurred in the garage and was extinguished quickly. Until the battery manufacturers solve this issue of spontaneous combustion (maybe they should see how Tesla batteries don’t have this issue), we’re not gonna see all-electric buses on the CTA any time soon. 

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, dann said:

I think it is a battery fire. It’s on obviously a larger scale than the Samsung Galaxy battery fires and it’s fortunate that it apparently occurred in the garage and was extinguished quickly. Until the battery manufacturers solve this issue of spontaneous combustion (maybe they should see how Tesla batteries don’t have this issue), we’re not gonna see all-electric buses on the CTA any time soon. 

Remember the Boeing 787s had battery  issues when that model plane debuted 

  I think the issues have to do with battery  temperatures and protections.   Once those lithium  batteries get a certain temperature they are  prone to explode  and catch fire.  Thus they also nes to be housed  in a way that should  an explosion  occur,  a fire can be somewhat  contained  so that it doesn't  quickly spread.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, dann said:

maybe they should see how Tesla batteries don’t have this issue

Turns out that's untrue, if you do a quick Google search. Here's a fairly recent review, indicating that most were after crashes, but one involved charging. It does get into @BusHunter's warranty point, though.

[Busjack]

Since the issues raised here stuck in my craw, I sent Mary Wisniewski of the Tribune a note to investigate it. Let's see if anything happens.

[BusHunter]

So many of these types of batteries are combusting while charging. Remember the hoverboard fiasco. Really they need some other type of battery as these are highly flammable. You know on an airline, they specifically want to know if batteries are on the manifest. The FAA is so "running scared" they are talking about banning the batteries onboard planes altogether. They are so scared of an in flight fire, they had a Jet Blue i believe divert to Grand Rapids because someone had a fire in their personal backpack. Sounds trivial but not to the FAA. I know these batteries get hot from personal experience, you can actually burn yourself charging my laptop. It gets that hot on charging. 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a17824/faa-lithium-ion-batteries/

[BusHunter]

10 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Remember the Boeing 787s had battery  issues when that model plane debuted 

  I think the issues have to do with battery  temperatures and protections.   Once those lithium  batteries get a certain temperature they are  prone to explode  and catch fire.  Thus they also nes to be housed  in a way that should  an explosion  occur,  a fire can be somewhat  contained  so that it doesn't  quickly spread.

There actually is a way to suppress these fires it's experimental but FEDEX thinks it's viable as it has put it in their planes.

http://venturaaerospace.com/news/suppressing-lithium-ion-battery-fires/