More Bus Moves

[artthouwill]

I think CTA acknowledged that it needs another garage.   No one knows what progress,  if any, is being made concerning the Fisk plant site on Cermak which still may be 2-3 years down the road.   

[ajm522]

1948 still at 77th. I would expect (unfortunately) rest of 1900's to leave this weekend. 

[jajuan]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

I think CTA acknowledged that it needs another garage.   No one knows what progress,  if any, is being made concerning the Fisk plant site on Cermak which still may be 2-3 years down the road.   

You are right that CTA acknowledged it needs another garage, but it is still two to three years down the road if it does happen. So the question still comes up for CTA management of how CTA balances its routes in the mean time. It's been a juggling act these six years since Archer's demise as evidenced by BH's observation of how garage bus assignments are not as stable today as they used to be. 

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Basically then it comes down to reassigning some routes then from Kedzie to other places. Then they might actually be able to maintain a bloated fleet, but your correct they do need another garage. I don't see why they couldn't just assign more to 77th, if it has a 400 bus capacity, why not use the space? (They already seem to be doing that in a limited fashion.) Then if you take from 74th you could ripple down the extra space to take away from Kedzie, then possibly you could bloat all the garages because Kedzie wouldn't have as many routes assigned.

The question though is what Kedzie sheds off as they don't necessarily want to throw deadhead mileage (actual nonrevenue trips with no passengers and not those scheduled partial trips to and from a garage cross street such as "X9 to 74th", "12 to Kedzie", or "55 to Ashland", too high. Plus CTA has been hesitant in assigning routes to a garage in such a way that the number of buses assigned goes beyond 300. The current 290 some buses at 77th is the highest any of the garages has seen in years. Previous high bus counts have averaged 260-270. 

[BusHunter]

19 minutes ago, jajuan said:

You are right that CTA acknowledged it needs another garage, but it is still two to three years down the road if it does happen. So the question still comes up for CTA management of how CTA balances its routes in the mean time. It's been a juggling act these six years since Archer's demise as evidenced by BH's observation of how garage bus assignments are not as stable today as they used to be. 

The question though is what Kedzie sheds off as they don't necessarily want to throw deadhead mileage (actual nonrevenue trips with no passengers and not those scheduled partial trips to and from a garage cross street such as "X9 to 74th", "12 to Kedzie", or "55 to Ashland", too high. Plus CTA has been hesitant in assigning routes to a garage in such a way that the number of buses assigned goes beyond 300. The current 290 some buses at 77th is the highest any of the garages has seen in years. Previous high bus counts have averaged 260-270. 

Well Kedzie has already shed off some routes like the #157 to Chicago, and some of the downtown routes like #125 went to other garages, so they have done a few things already. I'm saying something moreless like run the #75 or #67 out of 77th or share or possibly let 77th do the #9/#X9, then you open a window for 74th to do the #39 or #35 or even #31 or full time #X49/#49's. Technically though 77th could do the 30's also. Even if you just up the fleet by 30-40 buses at Kedzie while removing the need for 30 or so, they might be able to retain a stable fleet there. (see that could be done now by just removing routes and not decreasing the fleet)  Like I say though, that takes buses, but they could always keep some #6400's around as a reserve fleet, something they wouldn't use unless they had to. 

[sw4400]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Well Kedzie has already shed off some routes like the #157 to Chicago, and some of the downtown routes like #125 went to other garages, so they have done a few things already. I'm saying something moreless like run the #75 or #67 out of 77th or share or possibly let 77th do the #9/#X9, then you open a window for 74th to do the #39 or #35 or even #31 or full time #X49/#49's. Technically though 77th could do the 30's also. Even if you just up the fleet by 30-40 buses at Kedzie while removing the need for 30 or so, they might be able to retain a stable fleet there. (see that could be done now by just removing routes and not decreasing the fleet)  Like I say though, that takes buses, but they could always keep some #6400's around as a reserve fleet, something they wouldn't use unless they had to. 

Can't let them sit parked for months on end, otherwise problems will occur(fuel will gel up, starting will become difficult, trans may get stuck in "N" and not shift, parking brake may get stuck on). Also, the buses will require some sort of rehab if they are to stay beyond 2017, and that's going to cost at least north of $100,000, maybe even north of $500,000 depending on what CTA wants done to extend the life of the buses and the quantity left(CTA will no doubt want to rebuild the engine and transmission to improve reliability. The wheelchair ramp motor will need to be rebuilt/replaced. The kneeler system may need to be adjusted to avoid complaints from the disabled requesting the bus lowered for easier boarding if it doesn't function. Lighting will need to be fixed(not a LED lighting rehab, but replace fluorescent bulbs, headlights, brake & turn signal lights and backup lights that are burned out). They might be able to get by with paper signs instead of fixing the LED signs or Backlit Flip Dot signs if they keep any pre-6709 Novas.

It's a lot, but will be required to keep them beyond 2017, IMO.... these buses never underwent a midlife rehab like the 6000-Series Flxibles and 1000-Series New Flyers

[Busjack]

30 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

Can't let them sit parked for months on end, otherwise problems will occur(fuel will gel up, starting will become difficult, trans may get stuck in "N" and not shift, parking brake may get stuck on). Also, the buses will require some sort of rehab if they are to stay beyond 2017, and that's going to cost at least north of $100,000, maybe even north of $500,000 depending on what CTA wants done to extend the life of the buses and the quantity left(CTA will no doubt want to rebuild the engine and transmission to improve reliability. The wheelchair ramp motor will need to be rebuilt/replaced. The kneeler system may need to be adjusted to avoid complaints from the disabled requesting the bus lowered for easier boarding if it doesn't function. Lighting will need to be fixed(not a LED lighting rehab, but replace fluorescent bulbs, headlights, brake & turn signal lights and backup lights that are burned out). They might be able to get by with paper signs instead of fixing the LED signs or Backlit Flip Dot signs if they keep any pre-6709 Novas.

It's a lot, but will be required to keep them beyond 2017, IMO.... these buses never underwent a midlife rehab like the 6000-Series Flxibles and 1000-Series New Flyers

To put it simply:

• They aren't going to put the cost of a new bus  into a junk bus.
• You used to claim that CTA buses  had a useful life of 19  years.
• You haven't claimed that you work in the CTA maintenance department, or to have the service histories for the buses at issue.

[sw4400]

17 minutes ago, Busjack said:

To put it simply:

• They aren't going to put the cost of a new bus  into a junk bus.
• You used to claim that CTA buses  had a useful life of 19  years.
• You haven't claimed that you work in the CTA maintenance department, or to have the service histories for the buses at issue.

I have a Father who is a retired diesel mechanic & auto mechanic of 30+ years(he's worked on cars, trucks and buses-both school and motorcoach). He's explained to me what happened if you let a vehicle sit for a very long time without driving or running it. It's happened to his own personal vehicle when he let it sit for months then went to go start it.... fuel was gelled up and it wouldn't start until he replaced the fuel filter, which was clogged up. If you leave a vehicle for a long period of months without starting or driving it, problems can occur.

As far as buses lasting 19 years, that's been the practice of CTA for years.... the Fishbowls, the Flyers, the Americanas, the TMC's and Flxibles. But aside from the Americanas and earlier, the TMC's and Flxibles had life extending rehabs(the TMC's a mid-life overhaul and the Flxibles a life-extending rehab). The Fisbowls, Flyers and Americanas may have had a life-extending rehab at some point, but I'm not sure about them. Anyone know???

[jajuan]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Well Kedzie has already shed off some routes like the #157 to Chicago, and some of the downtown routes like #125 went to other garages, so they have done a few things already. I'm saying something moreless like run the #75 or #67 out of 77th or share or possibly let 77th do the #9/#X9, then you open a window for 74th to do the #39 or #35 or even #31 or full time #X49/#49's. Technically though 77th could do the 30's also. Even if you just up the fleet by 30-40 buses at Kedzie while removing the need for 30 or so, they might be able to retain a stable fleet there. (see that could be done now by just removing routes and not decreasing the fleet)  Like I say though, that takes buses, but they could always keep some #6400's around as a reserve fleet, something they wouldn't use unless they had to. 

I'd say give the 35 and 39 back to 77th along with the 31 since Kedzie was given the prior two from 77th and because of 77th's close proximity to the Dan Ryan, which buses for those routes can use to get back and forth from the garage as opposed to getting slowed by street traffic deadheading up and down Ashland, which is the more direct roadway a bus would get from 74th to 31st, 35th and Pershing. Plus 74th isn't having the space issues that Kedzie was so there's no need to change its route assignments so drastically as proposed. 

[jajuan]

1 hour ago, sw4400 said:

I have a Father who is a retired diesel mechanic & auto mechanic of 30+ years(he's worked on cars, trucks and buses-both school and motorcoach). He's explained to me what happened if you let a vehicle sit for a very long time without driving or running it. It's happened to his own personal vehicle when he let it sit for months then went to go start it.... fuel was gelled up and it wouldn't start until he replaced the fuel filter, which was clogged up. If you leave a vehicle for a long period of months without starting or driving it, problems can occur.

As far as buses lasting 19 years, that's been the practice of CTA for years.... the Fishbowls, the Flyers, the Americanas, the TMC's and Flxibles. But aside from the Americanas and earlier, the TMC's and Flxibles had life extending rehabs(the TMC's a mid-life overhaul and the Flxibles a life-extending rehab). The Fisbowls, Flyers and Americanas may have had a life-extending rehab at some point, but I'm not sure about them. Anyone know???

They did not as far as I remember. And remember that there were two different generations of Flxibles from CTA's more recent bus history. So while most of us who know you meant the Flxible 6000s, there are still newbies on the forum who may not know that especially if they're relatively new to Chicago. The larger point though is Jack is right that CTA is not going to throw big money into a 14-15 year old bus model that's in the process of retiring just to keep a small few around. You needn't worry about your hypothetical anyway since CTA did give the impression that the 6400s were not going to be around for too long beyond 2017. 

[BusHunter]

On Saturday, May 14, 2016 at 1:49 PM, garmon757 said:

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 3:25 PM, garmon757 said:

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, jajuan said:

I'd say give the 35 and 39 back to 77th along with the 31 since Kedzie was given the prior two from 77th and because of 77th's close proximity to the Dan Ryan, which buses for those routes can use to get back and forth from the garage as opposed to getting slowed by street traffic deadheading up and down Ashland, which is the more direct roadway a bus would get from 74th to 31st, 35th and Pershing. Plus 74th isn't having the space issues that Kedzie was so there's no need to change its route assignments so drastically as proposed. 

Yeah probably the #31,#35 and #39 would be enough for kedzie to deal off.

[BusHunter]

4 hours ago, jajuan said:

They did not as far as I remember. And remember  tthat there were two different generations of Flxibles from CTA's more recent bus history. So while most of us who know you meant the Flxible 6000s, there are still newbies on the forum who may not know that especially if they're relatively new to Chicago. The larger point though is Jack is right that CTA is not going to throw big money into a 14-15 year old bus model that's in the process of retiring just to keep a small few around. You needn't worry about your hypothetical anyway since CTA did give the impression that the 6400s were not going to be around for too long beyond 2017. 

Then the electrics better get going. There's no contract and we should know It takes a year to execute contracts.

@sw4400 On the #6400's hanging around as extras of course they would use them in service just not everyday.

 

[jajuan]

28 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

 

Yeah probably the #31,#35 and #39 would be enough for kedzie to deal off.

Quite possibly since its space issue would have possibly been fixed from turning 62 over completely to 74th and the 8 to 77th along with the 145 being eliminated and 148 going completely to NP. But CTA in its infinite wisdom had Kedzie take on 35 and 39 behind those changes, and the 35 underwent two expansions along the way: to 24th/Cicero on the west end and to 31st Street beach during the summers on the east end. Oh and by the way, Kedzie only gave up its morning runs on the 125 and the other two 120s downtown express feeders if I'm not mistaken.

[jajuan]

4 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Then the electrics better get going. There's no contract and we should kbnow It takes a year to execute contracts.

@sw4400 On the #6400's hanging around as extras of course they would use them IN seervice just not everyday.

would run

Ha ha true. They have a little wiggle room in that if they don't start the procurement process until later this year or early next year, the last 30 or so 6400s shouldn't be around no more than early 2018. That shouldn't drag on overall bus operations too much given that either way it goes the vast majority of the 6400s' remaining numbers should be gone by next year.

[andrethebusman]

Fishbowls did get a rehab of sorts in the late 80's. Biggest noticeable change was 9600's were changed from a 2-speed to a 3-speed (V730??) transmission near the end of their lives, In addition, there was an effort to fix up fishbowls on a garage by garage basis, North Park's were fixed up in traditional colors, while Archer's and most of Limits's got the new red/white/blue scheme before the whole project was dropped. 9800's and 4000's never had any significant work done, though 9800's had major work done when they were brand new to correct frame cracking problems. 7000 and 7100 artics never had anything significant done, either, except 7100 getting a GM engine.

In the pre-5307 era, there was no such thing as a "rehab program" buses were overhauled on a regular basis, but it was more PM than anything else. Yet several series had incredibly long lives - 5000 Twins 1950 thru 1972, same for ex Motor Coach 600's. Even prewar buses last a long time, considering that they were in many cases rather primitive, the most extreme being the "bathtub Twins" 1101-1110, 1927 to 1947.

[Busjack]

17 hours ago, jajuan said:

And remember that there were two different generations of Flxibles from CTA's more recent bus history. So while most of us who know you meant the Flxible 6000s

...and the 5300s were never rehabbed, and some outlasted the 4400s and 5800s, which were. That just gets back to my point that if a bus in a series to be retired is not worth fixing, it won't be, which is why I asked about service history.

10 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

In addition, there was an effort to fix up fishbowls on a garage by garage basis,

Probably the most was "fix ups," since as of the time of the 4400s rehab, CTA said that was the first time federal capital money could be used for it. Anything else was maintenance funds out of the operating budget.

[ajm522]

I just saw 1936 OOS at SS. I wonder if once it's back in service will it be transferred. 

[i8itall4u]

Yes. When 1936's repairs are done, it'll go to Chicago garage.

[BusHunter]

8 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Fishbowls did get a rehab of sorts in the late 80's. Biggest noticeable change was 9600's were changed from a 2-speed to a 3-speed (V730??) transmission near the end of their lives, In addition, there was an effort to fix up fishbowls on a garage by garage basis, North Park's were fixed up in traditional colors, while Archer's and most of Limits's got the new red/white/blue scheme before the whole project was dropped. 9800's and 4000's never had any significant work done, though 9800's had major work done when they were brand new to correct frame cracking problems. 7000 and 7100 artics never had anything significant done, either, except 7100 getting a GM engine.

Limits probably did have the best looking fishbowls. I find your comment interesting, when the #9800's were repainted they received some new things like a new cover over the engine and new tailights and exterior items. The #7100's got even more from a paint job to a new engine cover that had holes in it, I assume for ventilation (maybe the buses ran hot) and new bumper covers and new tailights and such. I find it interesting that it was just an exterior rehab. In fact, I think I remember them stating they were doing a rehab on the #7100 series, this was around 1991-92. 

[jajuan]

9 minutes ago, i8itall4u said:

Yes. When 1936's repairs are done, it'll go to Chicago garage.

I'm now finding it harder to believe the Allison buses are going to NP by the end of the swapocalypse at this point. They've already started some wasteful swapping in consolidating 103rd initially with 1034-1211 only to see 1034-41 go to FG and 1212-1218 make their way to 103rd shortly after some of those had recently just gone to 77th.

[BusHunter]

38 minutes ago, jajuan said:

I'm now finding it harder to believe the Allison buses are going to NP by the end of the swapocalypse at this point. They've already started some wasteful swapping in consolidating 103rd initially with 1034-1211 only to see 1034-41 go to FG and 1212-1218 make their way to 103rd shortly after some of those had recently just gone to 77th.

Just remember #1753-60, #1799 - #1809 and a few odd #1800's are more than the 9 #1900's Chicago has received so far. If 77th is next on the sequential numerical fleet, those #1900's are going to have to leave to go somewhere. Maybe NP just don't have the buses to send to them and Chicago does.

[ajm522]

2 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Just remember #1753-60, #1799 - #1809 and a few odd #1800's are more than the 9 #1900's Chicago has received so far. If 77th is next on the sequential numerical fleet, those #1900's are going to have to leave to go somewhere. Maybe NP just don't have the buses to send to them and Chicago does.

It would of been nice for every garage to get a taste of certain fleet. I know that may suck for maitnance standpoint. But Chicago doesn't need all 1900's 

[BusHunter]

8 minutes ago, ajm522 said:

It would of been nice for every garage to get a taste of certain fleet. I know that may suck for maitnance standpoint. But Chicago doesn't need all 1900's 

All you can hope for is that they do do that once everything gets straightened out.

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, jajuan said:

I'm now finding it harder to believe the Allison buses are going to NP by the end of the swapocalypse at this point. They've already started some wasteful swapping in consolidating 103rd initially with 1034-1211 only to see 1034-41 go to FG and 1212-1218 make their way to 103rd shortly after some of those had recently just gone to 77th.

This whole thread is about wasteful swapping.   This makes the 1929 and up going to NP that much more believable.   The glitch is the upper 1800s to 1928 aren't going to Forest Glen.  That would have made the New Flyers start with the oldest at 103rd  and the newest at North Park.   The older 7900s are south and the newest are about to show up at the Glen. 

[BusHunter]

39 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

This whole thread is about wasteful swapping.   This makes the 1929 and up going to NP that much more believable.   The glitch is the upper 1800s to 1928 aren't going to Forest Glen.  That would have made the New Flyers start with the oldest at 103rd  and the newest at North Park.   The older 7900s are south and the newest are about to show up at the Glen. 

They probably wouldn't want that because that would make Forest Glen have all the newest buses, but really that's only fair because the south side gets everything first according to this setup. If they did that they would have heavy squawking from the south side.

[jajuan]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Just remember #1753-60, #1799 - #1809 and a few odd #1800's are more than the 9 #1900's Chicago has received so far. If 77th is next on the sequential numerical fleet, those #1900's are going to have to leave to go somewhere. Maybe NP just don't have the buses to send to them and Chicago does.

I have not forgotten those. 1700s and 1800s at C now. 1799-1809 and the few odd 1800s were already there before this swapocalypse to straighten out the overall NF numbers began though. And NP not having buses to send to 77th doesn't jibe when NP has 1200s left and 1300s, both which 77th has already started off getting from other garages to start off  the consolidation behind that which 103rd will settle down after CTA gets FG to whatever target number of NFs they have in mind, and ahead of the block they're working on for 74th, which appears to be consolidating to 1400s and approximately the first half or so of 1500s.

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

This whole thread is about wasteful swapping.   This makes the 1929 and up going to NP that much more believable.   The glitch is the upper 1800s to 1928 aren't going to Forest Glen.  That would have made the New Flyers start with the oldest at 103rd  and the newest at North Park.   The older 7900s are south and the newest are about to show up at the Glen. 

True on the thread being about CTA's crazy swapping, but my point was they had started this whole venture off initially with moves that seemed the least wasteful possible (no double movements of individual buses) weighed against the goal they appear to have in mind as the intent in going into this. Now they're making crazy moves that one way or the other will have some buses having moved twice or more since the start of this current crazy swap madness.