More Bus Moves

[RJL6000]

The swap-o-rama resumes this weekend:

Forest Glen sent #1026-#1040 back to 103rd. Chicago sent #1208-#1218 and #1590-#1593 to 77th. No word yet on #1025 and #1575-#1579. Also MIA are the upper 1740s and lower 1750s that were last run on Kedzie Garage routes (#1747, #1748 and #1750-#1752).

[BusHunter]

Looks like instead of fg losing 6400's they are losing 1000's. That sounds like a fleet increase to me. So what happens to the last 100 6400s?

[sw4400]

48 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Looks like instead of fg losing 6400's they are losing 1000's. That sounds like a fleet increase to me. So what happens to the last 100 6400s?

Something is amiss here..... 1026-1040 are back at 103rd, leaving only 1000-1025 currently at FG. The 6400's are wobbling thru their final 18-24 months of service. There's no big order of buses pending aside from the 25 Novas that could get picked up(I think it's a 60-40 possibility for that.... 60% unlikely, 40% likely) and the 27 All-Electric buses which probably won't come until 2018 at the earliest as they'll have to draw up the contract in 2017 and get a manufacturer to bite on it(though I think these will go to an indoor garage).

125 new Novas are great for FG, but that number is way too low for high volume routes like 56, 76, 77, 78, 80, 86, 90, 91 and 152(there are more I'm sure, these are the ones I'm most familiar with). They need more than 125, probably 200 to have enough main and spare buses to operate fully all their routes.

So unless the CTA is thinking of giving FG a higher number block of New Flyers or maybe breaking part of a block of new Novas from 77th, 74th or Chicago to give to FG as well, I can't understand this move.....

[BusHunter]

Well probably the south side bus expansion is drawing more buses. But what is the point  of maintaining 25 buses where there are no more? 

[jajuan]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Looks like instead of fg losing 6400's they are losing 1000's. That sounds like a fleet increase to me. So what happens to the last 100 6400s?

Not necessarily. Per your prior roster update that brings the FG total down to about 253 buses. 

2 hours ago, sw4400 said:

Something is amiss here..... 1026-1040 are back at 103rd, leaving only 1000-1025 currently at FG. The 6400's are wobbling thru their final 18-24 months of service. There's no big order of buses pending aside from the 25 Novas that could get picked up(I think it's a 60-40 possibility for that.... 60% unlikely, 40% likely) and the 27 All-Electric buses which probably won't come until 2018 at the earliest as they'll have to draw up the contract in 2017 and get a manufacturer to bite on it(though I think these will go to an indoor garage).

125 new Novas are great for FG, but that number is way too low for high volume routes like 56, 76, 77, 78, 80, 86, 90, 91 and 152(there are more I'm sure, these are the ones I'm most familiar with). They need more than 125, probably 200 to have enough main and spare buses to operate fully all their routes.

So unless the CTA is thinking of giving FG a higher number block of New Flyers or maybe breaking part of a block of new Novas from 77th, 74th or Chicago to give to FG as well, I can't understand this move.....

Contracts are not drawn up until AFTER a manufacturer is chosen to provide new buses. What 2017 will bring is CTA drawing up BID SPECS AND PARAMETERS and different manufacturers during the rest of the relevant time of the year competing to meet those terms at lower cost. Then CTA chooses a manufacturer and both parties negotiate and agree to a set of contract terms. Plus I think you're overstating and exaggerating how bad the remaining 6400s' condition is a bit there given FG did make it through two and a half years with nothing but 6400s. The remaining just over 100 that are left are their better shaped ones and still in relatively decent shape in light of the age.

[BusHunter]

52 minutes ago, jajuan said:

Not necessarily. Per your prior roster update that brings the FG total down to about 253 buses. 

Contracts are not drawn up until AFTER a manufacturer is chosen to provide new buses. What 2017 will bring is CTA drawing up BID SPECS AND PARAMETERS and different manufacturers during the rest of the relevant time of the year competing to meet those terms at lower cost. Then CTA chooses a manufacturer and both parties negotiate and agree to a set of contract terms. Plus I think you're overstating and exaggerating how bad the remaining 6400s' condition is a bit there given FG did make it through two and a half years with nothing but 6400s. The remaining just over 100 that are left are their better shaped ones and still in relatively decent shape in light of the age.

Well #6746 just went out of gear in the middle of the #85 turn here at jeff in the terminal. The operator  nursed it over to the layover bay. 

As far as a fleet increase, 103rd gained buses so yes while fg lost 103rd gained so its a net system gain. I'm starting  to wonder about the #8325's if fg does get them and there are 25. Let's ask ourself what has 25 buses left. Fg may be destined to go all nova again.

[jajuan]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Well #6746 just went out of gear in the middle of the #85 turn here at jeff in the terminal. The operator  nursed it over to the layover bay. 

As far as a fleet increase, 103rd gained buses so yes while fg lost 103rd gained so its a net system gain. I'm starting  to wonder about the #8325's if fg does get them and there are 25. Let's ask ourself what has 25 buses left. Fg may be destined to go all nova again.

I don't know about a net system increase. It's more a system redistribution with everything about even. Remember those 1200s that went to 103rd from Chicago were 103rd's to begin with before the summer started. So Chicago is just giving those back with summer pick about to end tonight and tomorrow and Monday being the final days of beach service. And with tomorrow and Monday being Sunday/holiday schedule days Chicago doesn't really need the extra buses to do those last couple days of #72 beach service. Also the 100-something new Novas now in FG's possession knocked off about a similar number of old Novas with the total number of buses falling back down to about the same number before FG gained any NFs and new Novas. So all is about even actually.

[BusHunter]

I don't get it myself, it's like fg cant have nf's for some reason. if you add the 71 6400 novas that were supposed to remain in the budget with all these south side enhancements, I guess you get 100 buses or close to it. I was thinking what's the difference the nf's will just come back when the next order shows up but if I know CTA, I wouldn't doubt they deal the 100 77th #7900's to Fg and FG remains all novas for the next 12-15 years, so enjoy the new buses because they may not be seeing any anytime soon.

In response to Jajuan, the south side has to having an increase just look at all the enhancements. #71, #119 more service, #4 and #26 more service and extended service, and look who got 15 buses, the place with all the enhancements. It might actually make sense to have the #31 come out of 77th as it's way east and south from Kedzie.

[jajuan]

33 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I don't get it myself, it's like fg cant have nf's for some reason. if you add the 71 6400 novas that were supposed to remain in the budget with all these south side enhancements, I guess you get 100 buses or close to it. I was thinking what's the difference the nf's will just come back when the next order shows up but if I know CTA, I wouldn't doubt they deal the 100 77th #7900's to Fg and FG remains all novas for the next 12-15 years, so enjoy the new buses because they may not be seeing any anytime soon.

In response to Jajuan, the south side has to having an increase just look at all the enhancements. #71, #119 more service, #4 and #26 more service and extended service, and look who got 15 buses, the place with all the enhancements. It might actually make sense to have the #31 come out of 77th as it's way east and south from Kedzie.

But that's not an overall increase BH as the term 'system increase' actually means. That's a restoration of what things were back in the winter and spring as far as 103rd bus counts go. Remember that that's about how many buses left the south side for the summer months. If 26 was using that many more buses in its first phase of service enhancements for example, CTA wouldn't have moved those buses from 103rd to Chicago for the summer in the first place. The 31 is going to be on a half hour headway. So that's only two buses needed for that and not much of an increase of bus use. The extensions of the 26 and the 4 is going to need no more that two or three buses each given the extensions of each are only two miles for the 26 and two and a half miles for the 4 and the fact we're talking an average 15 min headway in both cases during most of their service day. CTA buses tend to make that distance outside of downtown in 10 to 15 mins. Yeah the counts increased, but not as an net increase as you stated. It's an increase back to what they were. So that's a redistribution on the system level, not a system wide increase. The only increase happening is just the normal fall time garage level increase on the south side that happens every year after having been decreased during the summer, which also happens every year. Nothing out of the ordinary. 

[BusHunter]

Yeah but the #26 did not go to 103rd garage in the summer or spring. So i dont get what you're  saying. 

[jajuan]

3 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah but the #26 did not go to 103rd garage in the summer or spring. So i dont get what you're  saying. 

It's keeping the same headway between buses and the extension is only about two miles, or translated into standard city block, 16 blocks. With a headway most of the day of 15 mins on average and counting in the 8 to 10 during the rush periods, 103rd shouldn't two use anymore than two or three extra buses to handle that. Four if we want to be generous. The same will probably be true of the 71 given it's going to have it's buses all run through to 112/Torrence on 10-12 min headways most of the day instead of every other buss doing so on an average 15-22 minute headway. So that's up to a max eight buses more used between those two over what was used during the summer, though the number may be closer to 4-6 more buses used. The 4 is staying at 77th and the 31 will be assigned there. So we're talking an average five extra buses used maybe on 77th's end for those two routes. So all in all, the increase to the south side is not this huge big overall increase you're making it out to be. It's normal redistribution that happens every year for the fall in spite of the service enhancements made. As Dorval Carter has consistently presented, CTA is managing to do a bit more with the same amount of overall resources that's been available to it throughout the course of the year so far.

[BusHunter]

Yeah but Jajuan 3 there, 4 over there and 3 or 4 routes later you are around 15. 77th needs more buses too and it appears to have gotton them. I guess doing more means 18 year old buses will be plying some routes. Could even be 20 year buses. Has a bus ever ran that long without a rehab?

[RJL6000]

In addition to the moves from the North to the South Side that I mentioned yesterday:

74th sent #1575-#1579 to Kedzie. No word yet on the fate of those #1740s (above #1740) and #1750s that were at Kedzie recently.

[jajuan]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah but Jajuan 3 there, 4 over there and 3 or 4 routes later you are around 15. 77th needs more buses too and it appears to have gotton them. I guess doing more means 18 year old buses will be plying some routes. Could even be 20 year buses. Has a bus ever ran that long without a rehab?

And that does not equate to a system wide bus increase BH. It's a garage level increase in both garages, back to what their counts were before the summer pick and back to what we usually see at those two in the fall season of service. They're just using buses from different ends of the number blocks (1208-1218 were at 103rd in its upper range of NFs but are now instead at 77th as its lower end of the number block, and 1025-1040 were traded from 103rd to FG s extra fill ins for retiring 6400s as FG first started getting newer causing a need for 103rd to get the former mentioned buses). I'm not disputing the numbers of what moved where as much as I'm trying to get you to see you're looking at things from the wrong angle a bit and using incorrect terms to describe what we're seeing here. You're looking at garage level increases and instantly equating that to be a net system wide increase, when in fact on the system level bus totals are about steady. If anything when we expand out to the overall picture, we've seen a decrease actually down from the peak a bit with CTA having gotten 6400s retirements closer to being on par with what new Novas came in at FG.  In short, some of the extra junk that was being held on to at FG has been retired and balances out what went back to the south side. The system wide fleet total is still about steady and relieved of some extra junk in the form of 6400s that got retired at FG. And to answer your question about if buses at CTA ever ran about 20 years without a rehab, the answer is yes. The MAN 4000s which ran 19 years and the Flxible 3700s that ran for 22 both come to mind. 

[BusHunter]

The man 4000s had a rehab in the early 90's. 3700's is too long ago to remember. I remember the 5300's were just about shot at 18 years. Maybe they are banking on running the new buses hard. They will be running hard now in fact their miles may compare with 77ths as they dont seem to run 7900s on the weekend. 

I dont think fg will be retiring much else in fact they might be short. If so south shops may be passing over up to 8322 this week.

[jajuan]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

The man 4000s had a rehab in the early 90's. 3700's is too long ago to remember. I remember the 5300's were just about shot at 18 years. Maybe they are banking on running the new buses hard. They will be running hard now in fact their miles may compare with 77ths as they dont seem to run 7900s on the weekend. 

I dont think fg will be retiring much else in fact they might be short. If so south shops may be passing over up to 8322 this week.

Hmmm I don't remember a rehab done on the MAN 4000s. The only thing major I remember with CTA buses in the early 1990's is the CTA placing the 4400s and 5300s in service and retiring the GMC 1000s from the Fishbowl counts and retiring out the 3700s with the arrival of the 4900s (CTA's last purchased non-accessible buses because Lake Street was too narrow under the L tracks to facilitate TMC buses with front mounted wheelchair lifts as CTA insisted that model of RTS to have).

[BusHunter]

Remember when they retrimmed the window exteriors. That was part of a rehab. The 3700s had to have some type of rehab how could they make it 22 years. I think the standard is 12 years unrehabbed 18 rehabbed so anywhere above those standards and you are in foreign territory

[jajuan]

5 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Remember when they retrimmed the window exteriors. That was part of a rehab. The 3700s had to have some type of rehab how could they make it 22 years. I think the standard is 12 years unrehabbed 18 rehabbed so anywhere above those standards and you are in foreign territory

Ha ha who knows with the 3700s? The biggest thing I remember about them is the newspapers making a big fuss about it being the 1990s and CTA still having buses from the 1960s.  Whatever rehabs done then had to have been minor because I do remember CTA marketing the rehab of the 4400s as being the first major overhaul CTA invested in that was intended to extend bus service life. It was during the earliest days of CTA management presenting a public face in getting bus and rail fleets to a good state of repair and low average service life. 

[BusHunter]

I remember andre talking about a 3700s repaint and the paint color was off. Instead of hunter green it was like seaweed green. That error still exists today on 3706. Its possible it had some type of life extending rehab  then.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

I remember andre talking about a 3700s repaint and the paint color was off. Instead of hunter green it was like seaweed green. That error still exists today on 3706. Its possible it had some type of life extending rehab  then.

There was a time when buses were either cream and green or white and green (Andre said cream was first).  Because of steel bodies, buses were periodically repainted, but there basically wasn't a formal rehab program until the 4400s.

Another change was that fleet numbers were originally in a "book font" on the white or cream under the windshield, and putting Helvetica numbers either there or on the green between the headlights came later.

There were other arbitrary repaintings, such as several colors on Beverly New Looks to give the RTA some ideas, and the pine and lime pattern later used on the Flyers and MANs on 9000s. There was, of course, the corporate rebranding repainting of most of the fleet from the pine and lime to the white with blue and red stripes.

[andrethebusman]

3706 got repainted for a charter. It had been picked for said charter because it was in original paint and the paint job was in good shape. On morning of charter, lo and behold, it has a fresh paint job. Note all the unpainted aluminum was also painted gray.

As of 9/4 both 301 and 3706 are in the shop getting worked on. 3706 is having engine work.

 

[andrethebusman]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 7:01 PM, Busjack said:

There was a time when buses were either cream and green or white and green (Andre said cream was first).  Because of steel bodies, buses were periodically repainted, but there basically wasn't a formal rehab program until the 4400s.

Another change was that fleet numbers were originally in a "book font" on the white or cream under the windshield, and putting Helvetica numbers either there or on the green between the headlights came later.

There were other arbitrary repaintings, such as several colors on Beverly New Looks to give the RTA some ideas, and the pine and lime pattern later used on the Flyers and MANs on 9000s. There was, of course, the corporate rebranding repainting of most of the fleet from the pine and lime to the white with blue and red stripes.

Until the 3000's, buses were green and cream since 5000's in 1950. Specific paint patterns changed over time, but colors did not. With 3000's they went to a white and darker green, but no change in pattern. Buses were repainted every 5 years or so. Most repaints after 1964 got the white and dark green, but about 1970 a few, mostly 5000's, ended up cream and dark green, apparently to use up paint. By 1972, there were very few cream and green buses, mostly 8700's, which had better quality paint (first Imron?) than most.

Actually, there was a continuous rehab program then. About every 5 years, a bus went in to have everything fixed up and repainted. This ended in the 1970's when the CTA started going broke, which is why buses started looking do bad then.

[BusHunter]

Alright who's idea was it to put the eb #76's stop at Western on virtually the next block. It's 150-200 feet from the intersection. Why not just make a temp near side stop for the #76? It seems closer to Oakley than Western!! i took some shots!! When the operator asks you if you want the far sided stop he really means it here!!

[Busjack]

7 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

lright who's idea was it to put the eb #76's stop at Western on virtually the next block. It's 150-200 feet from the intersection. Why not just make a temp near side stop for the #76? It seems closer to Oakley than Western!! i took some shots!! When the operator asks you if you want the far sided stop he really means it here!!

The barrels and tape are there for some reason other than advertising Creamsicles. The law is quite clear that a bus stop must be in a safe place.

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

The barrels and tape are there for some reason other than advertising Creamsicles. The law is quite clear that a bus stop must be in a safe place.

I guess the near side is not a safe place. It was only the stop there for decades.