5000-series - Updates

[qwantae]

Spotted 5000 Series rail cars in the loop early this afternoon. 6-car consist. Didn't get the number of the lead car.

6-Cars??? Seems that they're working the Green Line or Purple Line Express.

[trainman8119]

6-Cars??? Seems that they're working the Green Line or Purple Line Express.

Or finding their way up to Skokie to be torn down !

[Busjack]

CTA should be embarrased. First the NABI'S and now the 5000-series? You claim to want to give quality World-Class service but your fleet is not up to par? What's the problem CTA?

I'm not sure if they could really drop the order. Who else would the CTA go to?

Which I said was the original problem. It was CTA inspectors who found this, so the problem is with the manufacturers, not CTA, at least not yet. However, Bombardier is supposed to be a world leader, and as I mentioned earlier, the only alternatives are Alstom, Japanese, or Spanish.

Also, unlike buses, rapid transit cars are custom jobs, especially on CTA with its smaller clearances. Thus, I don't understand Hilkevitch's repeated references to "CTA having the first of this model." Maybe more correct is that this is the first time CTA has put out a spec more advanced than the one used from 1964 to 1993.

But, even if you could give Alstom the contract tomorrow, it probably would be another 3 years for them to gear up and test those cars before giving the go ahead. In the meantime, you don't know if any of the other assemblers is also outsourcing components to China.

[Busjack]

6-Cars??? Seems that they're working the Green Line or Purple Line Express.

Or finding their way up to Skokie to be torn down !

Since the official word is that they are out of service until all are cleared for service, they certainly aren't working anything

And, may I add, that since Emanuel had the big press rollout at Midway, at least the television stations are using footage of the correct cars.

[Busjack]

CTA should be embarrased. First the NABI'S and now the 5000-series? You claim to want to give quality World-Class service but your fleet is not up to par? What's the problem CTA?

If you want to go further in this direction, read this later Tribune article on what CTA and FTA wanted and the BS Bombardier proposed.

[ChicagoNova]

6-Cars??? Seems that they're working the Green Line or Purple Line Express.

It said "Not in Service".

[BusHunter]

If you want to go further in this direction, read this later Tribune article on what CTA and FTA wanted and the BS Bombardier proposed.

No doubt Bombardier was back pedaling there. The degree to which they fix the cars is obviously eating into there profit margin. CTA should actually be commended. Who knows what global tragedy they have stopped from happening. If I was a transit agency ordering truck assemblies using the same Chinese parts I'd be worried. Who knows how far this goes back. No wonder transit agencies (at least around here) stick with the same manufacturers. (New Flyer, Orion and Eldorado-National) Until the companies give you an inferior product, there reputable.

[geneking7320]

According to Chicago-l.org:

-The 2200's were built by Budd Company with the Trucks built by Budd Pioneer III

-The 2400's were built by Boeing-Vertol with the Trucks built by Wegmann

-The 2600's were built by Budd Company/Transit America with the Trucks built by Wegmann

-The 3200's were built by Morrison/Knudsen with the Trucks built by Duewag

-The 5000's were built by Bombardier Transit Corporation with the Trucks built by Bombardier

If Wegmann or Duewag still exist, why not have them do the trucks? You have proof in the 2400's, 2600's and 3200's that these Trucks are sound.

The first time I heard of Duewag it was back in the 1970s associated with Siemans.

At that time they produced LRVs. I think Duewag may have been absorbed by now. Do you think it could be the German company that will be doing the subcontract work on the trucks now?

[Busjack]

The first time I heard of Duewag it was back in the 1970s associated with Siemans.

At that time they produced LRVs. I think Duewag may have been absorbed by now. Do you think it could be the German company that will be doing the subcontract work on the trucks now?

Google turned up a BusinessWeek profile that said they were a part of Siemens. However, the link there turns out to be contact lenses.

Siemens still makes bogies, or what we classify as trucks. Das Fragen (the question) is whether they cast their own parts for the bogies, or, like Bombardier, assemble them from other components

Apparently they have a U.S. plant in Sacremento, Calif.

[4CottageGrove95th]

While I am happy to see introduction of the new 5000s into the the system, something tells me that it would be in CTA's best interest to very, very slow about shipping either the 2200 or 2400 series to the scrap heap. This whole scenario smacks of the fiasco that happened with the R46 subway cars (Pullman Standard) purchased for the New York Transit Authority back in the mid-70s. I remembering riding those cars on the IND "A" and "CC" lines when they were fairly new.

They rode fairly well. They likewise had air ride suspension. But the Rockwell trucks were entirely to light for those 75-footers. As a result in March 1977, a crack was found in the frame of one of the lightweight Rockwell trucks resulting in a motor breaking loose from the truck, striking an axle. By 1978, there had been cracks found in 264 R46 trucks. Because of these problems, all R46s had to be checked three times a week for truck cracks. In February 1978, 889 cracks were found in 547 of the trucks. The cracking became so bad that on June 14, 1979, Mayor Koch ordered R46s with trucks that had two or more cracks out of service.

The more than 1,200 cracks that had been found by that day were classified into seven types. An account called the R46s "the most troubled subway car ever purchased". The R46 Rockwell truck mess continued into 1980. By this time, the number of cracks found on the trucks almost doubled, from 889 cracks logged in February 1979 to 1,700 in March 1980. To keep track of their structural issues, R46 trucks had to be inspected several times a week. In September 1980, two cracks of a type not seen before were found on the trucks. As a result, the NYCTA minimized use of the R46 fleet.

I have heard numerous comments on this forum about the CTA NABI fiasco. But if in fact this issue of the trucks on the 5000s is not brought to a SAFE and satisfactory resolution, CTA is headed in the same direction as NYCTA did in the 70s and 80s. And it's gonna be far, far worse than what happened

with the NABI situation.

At one time, I was pretty anxious to ride the 5000s upon getting back to Chicago as I now live in Phoenix Arizona. But after all this, I'm beginning to have my misgivings. With that said, if I feel that way and I don't even live in Chicago, what do you think will go through the minds of people who daily depend on lines where these cars will be assigned in the near future?

[Busjack]

At one time, I was pretty anxious to ride the 5000s upon getting back to Chicago as I now live in Phoenix Arizona. But after all this, I'm beginning to have my misgivings. With that said, if I feel that way and I don't even live in Chicago, what do you think will go through the minds of people who daily depend on lines where these cars will be assigned in the near future?

It seems like in both CTA instances (NABI and Bombardier), CTA is at least concerned about passenger safety and rather pull the equipment than put safety at risk. Hence, it is rather inconceivable that they would put the cars back in service under the conditions you describe happened in New York, and the second Tribune article indicates that even though Bombardier tried to get them to do it, CTA wouldn't.

If there is any passenger reaction to the cars, it seems more on the line that people don't like the seating arrangement, but CTA isn't going to do anything about that.

Maybe the more troubling thing from your post is that 40 years later, certain transit equipment manufacturers still act like government contractors, and are lax about quality control. Any automobile manufacturer that used the same quality control methods they did in the 1970s would have been long out of business. Since you mentioned NABI, the court record now reflects that NABI and Detroit Diesel are sniping against each other. Again, at least this time, CTA figured out that it shouldn't be spending $1 billion to have a maintenance problem greater than that posed by the cars to be replaced.

Added thought: Could this experience in 1977-9 explain why NY MTA pulled all their Grumman Flxible buses that had similar suspension problems shortly thereafter, instead of trying to fix them?

[CURRENTZ_09]

Reports are saying the CTA will Re-introduce the 5000-series in May, just in time of the openings of the New Madison/Lake station and Oakton/Skokie Station. I HOPE this is just minor flaws with the new series and the CTA will have a successful fleet with the new Rail cars. Thank god CTA called Bombardier OUT for their unsafe proceduces. When Bombardier Officials return for the 2ND OFFICIAL UNVIELING and hopefully LAST, they should come with answers and solutions, not more drama, they ought to feel embarassed by this and be a shamed that they smilied in the public's face while possibliy knowing they could have hurt or injured hundreds or even thousands of commuter riders. SHAME ON YOU BOMBARDIER!!!!!!!!!

[sw4400]

I'm a firm believer in Baseball.... and right now, Bombardier is down at the plate 0-2. CTA is getting ready into the windup for the delivery. If Bombardier gets strike three due to yet another flaw, or a recurring one that was previously thought to be resolved, I think it's time to cut them loose and look for another manufacturer... perhaps look for one that ISN'T the lowest bidder!!! We got burned by those recently(NABI in 2003 and until they show otherwise, Bombardier in 2006). NOVA most likely wasn't the lowest bidder in 1999, when the procurement was made for 484 Low Floor buses, that was most likely NABI offering their 40-LFW model, which the CTA wasn't interested in, but revisited in 2003 for the 225 mistakes we procured then to replace the aging Articulated fleet.

[Railwaymodeler]

I'll add a few thoughts to the matter: The attitude of Bombardier through this, would be more expected from the engine shops of a podunk backwoods logging railroad than of a major transportation equipment manufacturer. I mean, on the Polukaville Junction one could expect to see the cars coupled with ropes, duct tape holding plywood patches over the car sides, etc. But, the CTA? It's supposed to be a first class transit system. Seems that Bombardier forgets this, and also forgets the scores of thousands of people EACH DAY, that ride these trains. The loss of just one life, for a preventable derailment or worse, is tragic, to say nothing if an entire train, fully loaded, derails off an elevated line, or catches fire after shorting the 3rd rail maybe, in a subway tunnel.

What bothers me, is that this is a very 19th century attitude by the builder: Get it rolled out and make some money. Then fix issues as they arise, and hope for the best. Certainly in the past 100+ years, I would hope to see better!

[chitowndude84]

I hate to point it out,But I was the one saying/speculating LONG AGO that this "Smelled" like another BS "NABI issue",But was slammed for it and told to shut up .I guess some of us really can't share our views on this topic ?

Last year when this defect came to front and after reading all the other BS problems that these new train cars are having,I saw the CLEAR problem !! And as pointed out several time now (REF to the "NABI FIASCO")It seems like BOMBARDIER is using third world parts,Cutting corners to save some $$ and popping them out of the factory quickly just to make the deadline and not caring about QC.

I guess it's the same ignorant logic these days,Looking the other way-ignoring the issue until something REALLY REALLY bad happens and human lives are put in danger.

And can I also assume that "Chicago Politics" possibly played a role in this deal with Bombardier somehow ???

Now to me Bombardier looks like the "FORD" of the Transit maker industry,As they were using cheap CHINA MADE TRANSMISSIONS in their newer model Ford Mustang's that were blowing out at 100+ MPH

[Busjack]

I'll add a few thoughts to the matter: The attitude of Bombardier through this, would be more expected from the engine shops of a podunk backwoods logging railroad than of a major transportation equipment manufacturer. I mean, on the Polukaville Junction one could expect to see the cars coupled with ropes, duct tape holding plywood patches over the car sides, etc. But, the CTA? It's supposed to be a first class transit system. Seems that Bombardier forgets this, and also forgets the scores of thousands of people EACH DAY, that ride these trains. The loss of just one life, for a preventable derailment or worse, is tragic, to say nothing if an entire train, fully loaded, derails off an elevated line, or catches fire after shorting the 3rd rail maybe, in a subway tunnel.

What bothers me, is that this is a very 19th century attitude by the builder: Get it rolled out and make some money. Then fix issues as they arise, and hope for the best. Certainly in the past 100+ years, I would hope to see better!

I hate to point it out,But I was the one saying/speculating LONG AGO that this "Smelled" like another BS "NABI issue",But was slammed for it and told to shut up .I guess some of us really can't share our views on this topic ?

I'm not sure of the latter. However, the distinction at least appeared then that Bombardier was a world class company, while NABI was a broke, third world company. But, with regard to both's attitude toward their customers, Railway Modeler is correct that it stinks. Bombardier's attitude was not exposed until late yesterday, however.

Despite the consistent bad attitude of both suppliers, let's hope there is a distinction that CTA doesn't pay until this is worked out, as opposed to "conditionally accepting" like the NABIs and then facing a lawsuit in a couple of years. I figure that the NABI loss is in the range of about $35 million ($102 million contract; got about half service life out of it, and IIRC, CTA withheld about $15 million when the you know what hit the fan). Also, unlike Huberman covering up the reason why CTA all the sudden had to lease 150 artics., let's hope CTA is coming clean this time, although complying with the FOIA request would help.

[See Tea Eh]

I'm a firm believer in Baseball.... and right now, Bombardier is down at the plate 0-2. CTA is getting ready into the windup for the delivery. If Bombardier gets strike three due to yet another flaw, or a recurring one that was previously thought to be resolved, I think it's time to cut them loose and look for another manufacturer... perhaps look for one that ISN'T the lowest bidder!!! We got burned by those recently(NABI in 2003 and until they show otherwise, Bombardier in 2006). NOVA most likely wasn't the lowest bidder in 1999, when the procurement was made for 484 Low Floor buses, that was most likely NABI offering their 40-LFW model, which the CTA wasn't interested in, but revisited in 2003 for the 225 mistakes we procured then to replace the aging Articulated fleet.

Do you have any proof that Nova wasn't the lowest bidder (or that NABI was, in 1999, for that matter)?

It has been pointed out several times that CTA doesn't necessarily just look for the lowest bidder.

For that matter, it has also been pointed out that if CTA cancels the Bombardier contract (and I see no reason why they should, provided Bombardier fixes this problem and pays for it), then not only do you have very few other options as far as buying railcars (not too many manufacturers), but it will take several years to get them and you still don't know if those cars are going to have problems that are just as bad, if not worse than these cars.

[sw4400]

Do you have any proof that Nova wasn't the lowest bidder (or that NABI was, in 1999, for that matter)?

It has been pointed out several times that CTA doesn't necessarily just look for the lowest bidder.

For that matter, it has also been pointed out that if CTA cancels the Bombardier contract (and I see no reason why they should, provided Bombardier fixes this problem and pays for it), then not only do you have very few other options as far as buying railcars (not too many manufacturers), but it will take several years to get them and you still don't know if those cars are going to have problems that are just as bad, if not worse than these cars.

The only "proof" I have is speculation based as far back as 1989, when the CTA was looking for more M.A.N Americanas, but the Buy American Act forced them to go to TMC, which wasn't the lowest bidder(and lasted 18 years). Flxible was probably cheaper than TMC when the 5300's were commissioned to be built. In 1994, again Flxible was the lowest bidder for the 6000's, and the New Flyer 5800's were still experimental, and the CTA didn't want to procure 330 buses that might've been unreliable. After four years with the New Flyer D40LF experimental order, the CTA wanted 484 buses to retire the Flyer D901A and M.A.N Americana buses. NABI most likely bid on it with the 40-LFW bus model available. New Flyer was probably too expensive, but NOVABus showed good quality buses for a affordable price. After the NOVA purchase, the CTA decided to procure only the lowest bid for equipment, and thus the NABI fiasco came into play in 2003, with the Optimas only being the exception. Nobody on this board seriously thinks New Flyer was the lowest bidder in 2006? Despite the issues, NABI was the lowest bidder.

[Busjack]

The only "proof" I have is speculation based as far back as 1989, when the CTA was looking for more M.A.N Americanas, but the Buy American Act forced them to go to TMC, which wasn't the lowest bidder(and lasted 18 years). Flxible was probably cheaper than TMC when the 5300's were commissioned to be built. In 1994, again Flxible was the lowest bidder for the 6000's, and the New Flyer 5800's were still experimental, and the CTA didn't want to procure 330 buses that might've been unreliable. After four years with the New Flyer D40LF experimental order, the CTA wanted 484 buses to retire the Flyer D901A and M.A.N Americana buses. NABI most likely bid on it with the 40-LFW bus model available. New Flyer was probably too expensive, but NOVABus showed good quality buses for a affordable price. After the NOVA purchase, the CTA decided to procure only the lowest bid for equipment, and thus the NABI fiasco came into play in 2003, with the Optimas only being the exception. Nobody on this board seriously thinks New Flyer was the lowest bidder in 2006? Despite the issues, NABI was the lowest bidder.

Most of this isn't true, either.

MAN complied with the Buy America Act. The problem with the 4400s was that CTA tried a spec on which MAN was to be the sole provider, and while that was pending, MAN decided that it was not economically feasible to keep its North Carolina plant open.

Besides that, you don't have any of the paperwork for the bids. Maybe you can make an FOIA request for them, since the bidding process is no longer open, and hence the FOIA exemption (section 7(h)) is no longer available. [CTA FOIA site]

If your are going to post stuff about which you have no information, I declare that Adi Mor owns Jewel. But at least I know better.

[sw4400]

Most of this isn't true, either.

Again... speculation, Busjack. This is a board where you can give your thoughts, opinions and speculations on the topic(s) at hand. I don't have proof the NOVABuses were not the lowest, but I speculate that NABI did have a lower bid in 1999 for the 484 bus order, but the CTA went with NOVABus, which was slightly more costly, maybe because of something they saw in the buses they liked as opposed to the 40-LFW NABI offered. Going back to 1989, M.A.N was set to get the order for 474 buses, but the Buy America Act at that time stated that the equipment must be 100% American, which M.A.N wasn't, despite having a factory in North Carolina. Parts were still shipped in from Munich, Germany(What parts I'm not sure, but possibilities include the M.A.N Diesel Engines, Renk Transmissions, axles and wheels, maybe even parts of the shells themselves, I don't know). TMC, out of Phoenix, AZ, however was 100% all American. The shells, axles, ZF Transmissions, even the engines came from Detroit, MI.

Let's hear your speculation, or truth on why TMC instead of M.A.N in 1989, and do you think that NOVA was the lowest bidder in 1999 for the 484 bus order? Also, do you think that New Flyer of America was the lowest bidder in 2006, when the order for 1,050 standard length buses was put out there, or might NABI have been the lower bidder there, trying to get back in good graces with the CTA after the 2003 NABI fiasco that was still ongoing with the 7500-Series Articulateds still shaking throughout Chicago(remember, NABI did deliver a CompoBus in 2005 with an option for 24 more that ultimately fizzled)?

[sw4400]

Do you have any proof that Nova wasn't the lowest bidder (or that NABI was, in 1999, for that matter)?

Speculation, See Tea Eh.... speculation.... NABI was probably the lowest bidder in 1999(NOVA LFS was just four years old at that time and the NABI 40-LFW was introduced in 1997, which makes in only two years old at the time, but being an all American Company, probably way cheaper than NOVABus, which was in New York and Montreal at the time.

[RJL6000]

Speculation, See Tea Eh.... speculation.... NABI was probably the lowest bidder in 1999(NOVA LFS was just four years old at that time and the NABI 40-LFW was introduced in 1997, which makes in only two years old at the time, but being an all American Company, probably way cheaper than NOVABus, which was in New York and Montreal at the time.

Actually, NABI was not 100 percent American. In fact, NABI during the late 1990s and early 2000s was part-Hungarian, part-American. The reason why they often were the low bidder was due to the relative value of Hungarian currency (Forint) versus the U.S. Dollar at the time. (Though the current ownership of NABI is 100 percent American through a New York-based private equity hedge fund group called Cerberus Capital Management and its financing subsidiary Traxis Group, the NABI buses that were delivered to the CTA and Pace were manufactured and delivered before Cerberus/Traxis took it over.)

Maybe that's why the current owners of NABI and the CTA weren't on good terms with one another: Cerberus/Traxis has repeatedly denied responsibility for the manufacture of the accordion-style buses retired early by the CTA (which were, indeed, manufactured under the company's previous part-Hungarian, part-American ownership). In other words, the current NABI wants to claim responsibility for the manufacture of only those NABI vehicles produced under the current owners' stewardship.

And here is why NABI has not always been all American: That company traces its roots to Hungary's Ikarus attempting to enter the US market in the 1980s. After that first attempt failed, Ikarus rebooted its US operations by joining forces with the Union City Body Company of Indiana to form Ikarus USA, which built Pace's buses 2200-2271 (71 buses since Pace avoids fleet numbers ending in "-13"). That was the direct ancestor of what became today's NABI. When Union City Body went bankrupt in 1991, the First Hungary Fund purchased a controlling stake in Ikarus USA, moved its operations to Anniston, Alabama and changed its name to American Ikarus. When Ikarus Bus sold its remaining stake in American Ikarus, the company's name was changed to North American Bus Industries (NABI).

[Busjack]

Actually, NABI was not 100 percent American. In fact, NABI during the late 1990s and early 2000s was part-Hungarian, part-American. The reason why they often were the low bidder was due to the relative value of Hungarian currency (Forint) versus the U.S. Dollar at the time. (Though the current ownership of NABI is 100 percent American through a New York-based private equity hedge fund group called Cerberus Capital Management, the NABI buses that were delivered to the CTA and Pace were manufactured and delivered before Cerberus took it over.)

True. Part of the reason they became financially nonviable was the Forint was pegged to the Euro, and around that time, the dollar sunk vs. the Euro. Also, all the bodies were fabricated in Hungary. The Compobus body was fabricated at a Kaposvar Hungary factory, which this thread notes was closed in 2005, also noting that some Buy America Act waivers had expired and were not renewed by the FTA. Apparently that plant reopened when LA revived the Compobus.

If you remember back to the early days of this forum, the one Chicago Compobus was seen by Kevin, and then disappeared. There was never a straight answer on why the 24 others supposedly ordered didn't show up, but the rumor was that NABI was willing to cancel the deal, because it couldn't afford to make the bus.

At about that time, but while NABI was still a Hungarian company, they announced that they were the apparent low bidder on the 1050 CTA bus contract, but that contract was never awarded, and rebid a year later to New Flyer. The official word from NABI was that the funds were not appropriated, but that was also the time when the you know what hit the fan with CTA. Once NABI sold out, their Hungarian website went dead, so you have to rely either on our memories or Wikipedia for verification (Lord forbid). The new NABI Hungarian site in English is here, with an abbreviated history here.

As I noted, apparently the only American bus assemblers using American bodies are El Dorado National and Gillig. Maybe Millennium if, after getting through bankruptcy, it is actually producing something.

[See Tea Eh]

The only "proof" I have is speculation based as far back as 1989, when the CTA was looking for more M.A.N Americanas, but the Buy American Act forced them to go to TMC, which wasn't the lowest bidder(and lasted 18 years). Flxible was probably cheaper than TMC when the 5300's were commissioned to be built. In 1994, again Flxible was the lowest bidder for the 6000's, and the New Flyer 5800's were still experimental, and the CTA didn't want to procure 330 buses that might've been unreliable. After four years with the New Flyer D40LF experimental order, the CTA wanted 484 buses to retire the Flyer D901A and M.A.N Americana buses. NABI most likely bid on it with the 40-LFW bus model available. New Flyer was probably too expensive, but NOVABus showed good quality buses for a affordable price. After the NOVA purchase, the CTA decided to procure only the lowest bid for equipment, and thus the NABI fiasco came into play in 2003, with the Optimas only being the exception. Nobody on this board seriously thinks New Flyer was the lowest bidder in 2006? Despite the issues, NABI was the lowest bidder.

You're making this all up to fit a view that doesn't even make any sense.

I don't know what the MAN/TMC/Flxible competition of the late 80s/early 90s has to do with anything. But you're guessing that one company was "probably" cheaper than another, despite the fact that a different company got the order, etc.

For what it's worth, New Flyer wasn't the lowest bidder in 2006 because they didn't bid on anything in 2006. The order was signed in 2004.

[Busjack]

Again... speculation, Busjack. This is a board where you can give your thoughts, opinions and speculations on the topic(s) at hand....

One, while your later posts were identified as such, See Tea Eh asked for any proof.

Second, there is no point to speculation if there is a source of facts. As indicated under III, there were sources of fact, but all you exhibited was a vivid imagination.

Thirdly, as the posts immediately above prove, your post has to win the award for the most inaccurate in the history of this board. Maybe that's speculation on my part, but it has to be close.

And to conclude, I at least admit when the information has not been made public. I said, for instance, that I made no representation about who the other bidder was on the Pace hybrid contract, nor what was in the Consent Agenda packet until a month later when they posted that Eldordado National got the contract. I'm not going to speculate that NABI bid more, less, or at all on that contract.

It is like if I said that National RentaCar uses Setras on its airport shuttles to get people to Mariano's. 5750 would set me right petty quickly.

You're making this all up to fit a view that doesn't even make any sense.

See Tea Eh, that's absolutely correct, thus...

Let's hear your speculation...

I'm not going to be goaded into that. I did respond to rjl to the extent of my knowledge. But if you want me to spend my time writing Snow White and the Seven Hamsters, not here.