5000-series - Updates

[artthouwill]

You

True. Part of the reason they became financially nonviable was the Forint was pegged to the Euro, and around that time, the dollar sunk vs. the Euro. Also, all the bodies were fabricated in Hungary. The Compobus body was fabricated at a Kaposvar Hungary factory, which this thread notes was closed in 2005, also noting that some Buy America Act waivers had expired and were not renewed by the FTA. Apparently that plant reopened when LA revived the Compobus.

If you remember back to the early days of this forum, the one Chicago Compobus was seen by Kevin, and then disappeared. There was never a straight answer on why the 24 others supposedly ordered didn't show up, but the rumor was that NABI was willing to cancel the deal, because it couldn't afford to make the bus.

At about that time, but while NABI was still a Hungarian company, they announced that they were the apparent low bidder on the 1050 CTA bus contract, but that contract was never awarded, and rebid a year later to New Flyer. The official word from NABI was that the funds were not appropriated, but that was also the time when the you know what hit the fan with CTA. Once NABI sold out, their Hungarian website went dead, so you have to rely either on our memories or Wikipedia for verification (Lord forbid). The new NABI Hungarian site in English is here, with an abbreviated history here.

As I noted, apparently the only American bus assemblers using American bodies are El Dorado National and Gillig. Maybe Millennium if, after getting through bankruptcy, it is actually producing something.

You bring up an interesting point, Busjack. We certainly don't have this information, but it makes me wonder what the terms of Cerebus buying out the Hungarians were, whether Cerebus would assume any debt or responsibility for litigation for any actions under previous ownership. Is it possible that Cerebus could settle with CTA and go after the Hungarians, but then that might not be possible if that company doesn't exist anymore.

We do know that CTA learned its lesson well from that fiasco by not accepting anything "conditionally" from Bombardier. It is a mystery to me that this company can build NYC subway cars forever with no problems, and it is also the company that builds CRJ planes with no problems, and it builds rail cars around the world with no problems that we know of, yet there is a biasco with CTA. I can't imagine that Bombardier would work with a supplier that it has never worked with before on a NEW contract, though that it certainly possible. It makes me also wonder if Bombardier was the low bidder. Alstom was the company that rebuilt the 2600 Budd series cars, and I would think that should've carried some weight, but whether it was enough to override I don't know. But as long as Bombardier is cooperating, however reluctantly, there is no need to start this process all over again. I believe the CTA will not exercise all of its options at one time in the future, especially before it has even been satisfied with its first set of deliveries. Just imagine if these problems came up and CTA had stuck with just the base order. With funding still available, CTA could've put out another bid if necessary, and they still would have the choice of exercising the other options with Bombardier if CTA was satisfied with how this current fiasco was being handled.

[RJL6000]

I was wrong about the current ownership of NABI being 100 percent American. In fact, NABI is still part-European owned; however, the American hedge fund group (Cerberus) mentioned above has a controlling stake in the venture.

[sw4400]

Getting back on track(so to speak). If you were Forrest Claypool, when would this be enough for you to drop Bombardier before you get in any more deeper? This will be the 3rd introduction/2nd re-introduction of the 5000's come May(presuming another "hiccup" doesn't come up). Would any more hiccups be your breaking point with Bombardier at this point, or would you give them yet another in a endless stream of chances to get these railcars right?

[mkohut]

Getting back on track(so to speak). If you were Forrest Claypool, when would this be enough for you to drop Bombardier before you get in any more deeper? This will be the 3rd introduction/2nd re-introduction of the 5000's come May(presuming another "hiccup" doesn't come up). Would any more hiccups be your breaking point with Bombardier at this point, or would you give them yet another in a endless stream of chances to get these railcars right?

If they did get rid of Bombardier who would replace then?

[nflyer22]

If they did get rid of Bombardier who would replace then?

Here's my 2 cents on this:

Going along with mkohut, given that the CTA spent a good sum of $1 billion plus on the 5000s, the situation isn't as easy as taking a defective computer back to the local electronic store to have it refunded, if not repaired, so you can go to another store across town to pick up a new one. Bombardier probably has a considerable number of parts done or on-hand already, such as the car shells, inner components, and truck assemblies ready to go. If the CTA were to switch to another bidder, that long process of procuring raw materials will lengthen the time the new rail cars will be out and rolling, not to mention the legal fees that will follow.

I do not know much about a mass-transit rail car's anatomy, but seeing how Bombardier has had 2+ years on the contract, we've already seen some fruits of its labor. Sure there are some kinks here and there, but at least the company is complying with the CTA in fixing them, given the benefit of the doubt.

Like most Chicagoans, I enjoyed the prototype rides when they were first tested, and all I can do now is simply hope for the best and wait to see if things will be truly ironed out in the end.

[sw4400]

But why did the other manufacturers of the earlier railcars not have as much trouble as Bombardier? I know about the infamous Budd malfunction in 1999, but otherwise, Budd, Boeing-Vertol and Morrison-Knudsen had little issues during delivery of their railcars in 1976, 1981 & 1991, respectively. And I think all of them used foreign parts on some of the truck assemblies.

[Railwaymodeler]

But why did the other manufacturers of the earlier railcars not have as much trouble as Bombardier? I know about the infamous Budd malfunction in 1999, but otherwise, Budd, Boeing-Vertol and Morrison-Knudsen had little issues during delivery of their railcars in 1976, 1981 & 1991, respectively. And I think all of them used foreign parts on some of the truck assemblies.

Your question probably has the answers as well.

The problem with the Bombardier cars is cheap Chinese made junk. While I do not know for certain, I would bet that the previous cars, especially the Budd and Boeing-Vertol cars, did not have issues from Chinese made junk.

It reminds me of something in the IT field: Dell Computers outsourced motherboards for a number of desktop computers, most famous of them, the Dimension 2400 series. They had a company in China making the motherboards. What Dell apparently did not know, is that this company stole and botched the chemical formula for the capacitors near the processor. In the end, the chemicals overheated and destroyed the capacitors (Visible when the cover of the computer is removed - damaged capacitors will be bubbled on top or appear to leak a corroded-looking chemical). In the end, what little Dell saved on this company, cost them considerably more when extending customer warranties to cover their mistakes.

In a larger sense, I hope that the issues with the 5000 series railcars, hits major news outlets, and that the CTA stressed Chinese made parts as being faulty. It's about time America woke up, that not only is our manufacturing jobs going there, but what comes into the country, is JUNK.

I'd better close up this post before I go on a long rant about foreign made junk.

[mkohut]

Your question probably has the answers as well.

The problem with the Bombardier cars is cheap Chinese made junk. While I do not know for certain, I would bet that the previous cars, especially the Budd and Boeing-Vertol cars, did not have issues from Chinese made junk.

It reminds me of something in the IT field: Dell Computers outsourced motherboards for a number of desktop computers, most famous of them, the Dimension 2400 series. They had a company in China making the motherboards. What Dell apparently did not know, is that this company stole and botched the chemical formula for the capacitors near the processor. In the end, the chemicals overheated and destroyed the capacitors (Visible when the cover of the computer is removed - damaged capacitors will be bubbled on top or appear to leak a corroded-looking chemical). In the end, what little Dell saved on this company, cost them considerably more when extending customer warranties to cover their mistakes.

In a larger sense, I hope that the issues with the 5000 series railcars, hits major news outlets, and that the CTA stressed Chinese made parts as being faulty. It's about time America woke up, that not only is our manufacturing jobs going there, but what comes into the country, is JUNK.

I'd better close up this post before I go on a long rant about foreign made junk.

I rather have you go a long rant.From what i understand this was suppose to be buy in the USA.

[Guest]

I rather have you go a long rant.From what i understand this was suppose to be buy in the USA.

Not in Obamanation it isnt! Its buy Chinese! Now you really get what you pay for!

[mkohut]

Not in Obamanation it isnt! Its buy Chinese! Now you really get what you pay for!

Enclose is a link about China building high speed rail. Would you trust then with parts?

http://news.yahoo.com/report-china-rail-section-collapse-jolts-shares-075310720.html

[Busjack]

Enclose is a link about China building high speed rail. Would you trust then with parts?

http://news.yahoo.co...-075310720.html

1. Former Mare Daley wanted the Chinese to build a maglev to O'Hare using Chinese money. Apparently they weren't interested.

2. The question on this one is whether the Chinese government will consider it a "natural disaster" or will start throwing construction workers off the end of the bridge. We've had stuff in this country like that, like the Cline Ave. bridge, but not the penchant of executing the engineers.

[artthouwill]

Not in Obamanation it isnt! Its buy Chinese! Now you really get what you pay for!

Not an Obama fan myself, but you can't blame him on this one. First, if you really want to blame someone, you can blame labor. A lot of companies either move overseas or outsource because labor costs are very high in this country, which in turn forces companies to raise their pricing for their goods and/or services. Despite the economy, CTA workers are among the highest paid in the nation, and with the public possibly facing fare increases and/or service cuts this year, the union will do absolutely nothing in terms of renegotiations. AMR is in bankruptcy now because labor refused to renegotiate, considering AA's labor costs are much higher than any other airline. I'm not saying that labor is the sole reason, whereas fuel prices and taxes also play a heavy hand in this, but labor costs are the one thing each company or entity can somewhat control.

And you can't just blanketly blame the Chinese. They have successfully built a world class high speed rail system and many other things. You wouldn't dare say American products are inferior because ONE American company took shortcuts and put out a faulty product.

It is a sad situation when American companies have to import products to save money so that Americans can afford to buy its products. Obviously this comes at the expense of jobs, but when will the people that do have the jobs stop being so greedy and think they should make more money than the owners? Everybody wants the best pay, yet they want the most service, best products, and expect to pay the least for it. In that scenario (I won't call it an equation) someone has to get the short end of the stick. Everyone agrees that someone will, just as long as it is not them.

I'm not advocating a return to the Rockefeller days when companies reaped huge profits while grossly underpaying its workers in dangerous environments. I am sure that rail cars could be built entirely in America with American parts by American people, but at what cost? As it is, these cars cost $1.4 mil apiece. Would we rather pay, say $2.5 mill per car that is truly 100% American? Those are things to think about in our free enterprise system. End of rant.

[geneking7320]

Getting back on track(so to speak). If you were Forrest Claypool, when would this be enough for you to drop Bombardier before you get in any more deeper? This will be the 3rd introduction/2nd re-introduction of the 5000's come May(presuming another "hiccup" doesn't come up). Would any more hiccups be your breaking point with Bombardier at this point, or would you give them yet another in a endless stream of chances to get these railcars right?

If I were Claypool I might not drop Bombardier yet but I would do the following:

1) Take the Orange Line to Midway and fly Southwest to LaGuardia

2) Board NYC rapid transit near the airport and ride to MTA headquarters and interview knowledgeable parties

about their experience with Bombardier trains.

3) Return to Chicago by reversing #1

4) Talk with CTA railmaintenance managers about the 3200s.

Again if I were doing this I'd pay for the trip with my own money and use my vacation time.

If the experts convinced me that the truck problem was the biggest problem of the 5000s I'd have Bombardier source the replacement parts from an approved subcontractor at Bombardier's expense. :D

[Guest]

Japan would be a better alternative with rail parts, I think!

[Amtrak41]

You Chicago folks are going through a NY R46-style disaster, whose trucks were of AMERICAN design and build. Luckily you still have the 2200's. NYCTA had already junked the R9's, and had to pull the R16's out of mothballs, also an extraordinarily crappy car from ACF and 1955.

The predecessor R44 car was also a disaster with everything wrong with them except the trucks. They caused the collapse of St Louis Car, whose competency could not get beyond the 1950's-1960's SMEE cars. Only 64 are left running, and they are on Staten Island. 230 of the 1964 Budd R32's are running having outlived most St Louis cars R38-R44 built thru 1973.

It is CTA, not Bombardier, people who noticed the flaw, twice so, AND blew the whistle. No one in either Plattsburgh nor China (admitted) noticing a thing. They earned their salary.

So one simply cannot make generalities between US and THEM.

[mkohut]

Japan would be a better alternative with rail parts, I think!

Here is proof China uses unqualified companies

http://news.yahoo.com/report-china-rail-section-collapse-jolts-shares-075310720.html

[BusHunter]

If I were Claypool I might not drop Bombardier yet but I would do the following:

1) Take the Orange Line to Midway and fly Southwest to LaGuardia

2) Board NYC rapid transit near the airport and ride to MTA headquarters and interview knowledgeable parties

about their experience with Bombardier trains.

3) Return to Chicago by reversing #1

4) Talk with CTA railmaintenance managers about the 3200s.

Again if I were doing this I'd pay for the trip with my own money and use my vacation time.

If the experts convinced me that the truck problem was the biggest problem of the 5000s I'd have Bombardier source the replacement parts from an approved subcontractor at Bombardier's expense.

Probably the best bet would be going through Alstom or someone they've had recent experience with like everyone involved in the making of the #3200's. I haven't heard any complaints of there equipment.

[See Tea Eh]

Not in Obamanation it isnt! Its buy Chinese! Now you really get what you pay for!

Because Obama totally had anything to do with CTA choosing Bombardier to build the 5000s.

[Busjack]

Because Obama totally had anything to do with CTA choosing Bombardier to build the 5000s.

Especially in 2006. Also probably way before Bombardier had lined up subcontractors, which probably was before they bid, which is the usual practice.

[dauber]

Spotted 5000 Series rail cars in the loop early this afternoon. 6-car consist. Didn't get the number of the lead car.

Sorry to be late with this, but yeah, I saw it too, but not in the Loop but on the Purple Line tracks on the North Side...I seem to remember they were 507x cars.

Odd that just a few days later the story came out...

[sw4400]

I get a hint of something MORE seriously wrong with these Bombardier railcars with this Montreal Gazette Article....

And Sullivan stressed that prior to Dec. 16, when the first 52 cars were taken out of service after their brief run, "there were no safety issues identified.

There's no evidence to suggest up until that point that there was any safety issue whatsoever. And nothing happened because they were taken out of service."

Look at this quote from the Gazette(this really makes me think there might be something more seriously wrong with these railcars)....

Bombardier Transportation spokesperson Maryanne Roberts noted that the trains were retired from service at Bombardier's suggestion.

Not "Removed from service temporarily" which means out of service for repairs/replacement parts temporarily, but "Retired from service at Bombardier's suggestion", which means out of service without returning... period.

Full article here

[Busjack]

I get a hint of something MORE seriously wrong with these Bombardier railcars with this Montreal Gazette Article....

I'm sure that the words weren't used in that technical of a sense. That would pan out only if someone is checking the id plaques and finds out that 5056 is really 5056-II based on the body shell numbers. Then, of course, Bombardier would be eating $1.4 million a car (or approximately $140 million on deliveries supposedly made or in the pipeline) as opposed to whathever it costs to shut down its line, get the replacement parts, and truck the trucks to wherever to replace the Chinese part.

In fact, what surprises me is that Sullivan is apparently more willing to talk to the Montreal media than she is the Chicago media. Roberts being more willing is not as big of a surprise. But there is sure a discrepancy between the Chicago and Montreal media about who suggested "retiring" the cars or "taking them out of service," unless the terms really are different.

[busfan2847]

I get a hint of something MORE seriously wrong with these Bombardier railcars with this Montreal Gazette Article....

I agree with Busjack that you are reading too much into the words.

The article is in a Montrael newspaper and was written by a reporter who's name implies French is his native language rather than English. At some point it has been translated from French to English which changed the subtle meaning. Probably "retirés du service" was translated to "retired from service" when a truer translation is "removed from service".

Bombadier is based in Quebec and by the looks of the makeup of the board most of them are French speaking Québécois. It is nor surprising they are more comfortable talking to a friendly home newspaper rather than a potentially hostile foreign paper.

[Busjack]

I agree with Busjack that you are reading too much into the words.

The article is in a Montrael newspaper and was written by a reporter who's name implies French is his native language rather than English. At some point it has been translated from French to English which changed the subtle meaning. Probably "retirés du service" was translated to "retired from service" when a truer translation is "removed from service".

...

I was thinking along those lines, and it may be possible, but the About Us page indicates that it has been an English paper since 1822 (and like the Sun-Times, for a time a Hollinger paper). The same story shows up in Ottawa and Calgary.

Of course the question is in what language Maryanne Roberts was thinking and then talking to Francois.

In any event, I'm sure we agree that the terminology was not being used in a technical sense.

[Busjack]

I also note that the following indicates that while Roberts was disagreeing with Tribune, apparently not in substance:

Roberts also denied allegations in the Tribune that Bombardier tried to cut a deal with the CTA to minimize the issue and costs.

"We proposed to the CTA that we replace the bearings furthest outside (the stress tests' tolerance level) immediately, followed by the others later. They preferred that we replace them all now, so that's what we're doing."

And apparently "replace them" refers to bearings, not cars.