More Bus Moves

[Sam92]

77th should get 4172-4207 if they're trading their non-hybrids for hybrids, straight up.

Wow remind me to never add up math on 2 hrs of sleep I'm kinda curious to see if any hybrid 4300's are next on the list to get traded but then again if that were the case they may have brought them up along with 4333-4340 from Kedzie unless they plan on a switch between 103rd and NP. Maybe the remaining stimulus artics for 103rd's hybrid 4300's? We'll see in about 2 or 3 weeks after this 3 way trade between C, 77th and NP shakes out. If it ends with this then maybe it was just to get more hybrids into indoor garages after all...

[jajuan]

Wow remind me to never add up math on 2 hrs of sleep I'm kinda curious to see if any hybrid 4300's are next on the list to get traded but then again if that were the case they may have brought them up along with 4333-4340 from Kedzie unless they plan on a switch between 103rd and NP. Maybe the remaining stimulus artics for 103rd's hybrid 4300's? We'll see in about 2 or 3 weeks after this 3 way trade between C, 77th and NP shakes out. If it ends with this then maybe it was just to get more hybrids into indoor garages after all...

What would be the point of trading 4300-4332? If Andre is right that the premise is to get hybrid artics to indoor facilities, then there would be no need to trade those since they are hybrids and already assigned to indoor garages.

[Busjack]

What would be the point of trading 4300-4332? If Andre is right that the premise is to get hybrid artics to indoor facilities, then there would be no need to trade those since they are hybrids and already assigned to indoor garages.

Besides that, I had made the point earlier that there is no point to leaving fewer than 80 hybrids at NP, on account of the grant for the electric outlets. Personally, I don't see any point of shifting diesel artics there, unless there is some argument that NP has already run up the mileage on the 4000s it already has.

[jajuan]

Besides that, I had made the point earlier that there is no point to leaving fewer than 80 hybrids at NP, on account of the grant for the electric outlets. Personally, I don't see any point of shifting diesel artics there, unless there is some argument that NP has already run up the mileage on the 4000s it already has.

Yes there is that kerfuffle to get around as well.

[BusHunter]

Could also be they want the new #4300's for the blue line shuttle. They have 4 years of closures and then the N-S red line main may have to close periodically. Weird though that Chicago is most likely going all #4000's unless in the future they will not be part of the blue line extras. The south side was doing all the "L" reconstruction last year and now the north side is. Those buses seem to follow the "L" closures. Should be interesting to see if 103rd can hang on to the #4300 hybrids, maybe they plan on shifting them to Chicago garage. I don't know if the 77th #4300 diesels will all go north or not, sounds likely, but I have a hard time seeing 77th losing new buses after what they did to 74th and FG. Unless this is a direct result of that.

[jajuan]

Could also be they want the new #4300's for the blue line shuttle. They have 4 years of closures and then the N-S red line main may have to close periodically. Weird though that Chicago is most likely going all #4000's unless in the future they will not be part of the blue line extras. The south side was doing all the "L" reconstruction last year and now the north side is. Those buses seem to follow the "L" closures. Should be interesting to see if 103rd can hang on to the #4300 hybrids, maybe they plan on shifting them to Chicago garage. I don't know if the 77th #4300 diesels will all go north or not, sounds likely, but I have a hard time seeing 77th losing new buses after what they did to 74th and FG. Unless this is a direct result of that.

Well if 77th did lose its diesel artics, it would defuse part of CTA5750's argument that the south and west side garages always get the newer buses at the expense of the north and northwest side garages, with FG getting the shortest end of the stick. Busjack and I pointed out that the only truth in that is that if we look back bus deliveries after the Fishbowls, 77th almost always got newer bus models as new deliveries, with the only model it didn't get at the time that model was new to the CTA roster being the 5300s because it got some of the simultaneously delivered 4400s instead, and the 5800s due to CTA only getting 65 of those and assigning them all to North Park.

Looking at west side deliveries, Chicago didn't get 6000s but it did receive 6400s. Kedzie got 6000s, but as I mentioned above it lost them to FG just a year maybe a year and a half after getting them only to get some back only because FG and a few others were getting 6400s. It would be ten years later before it would start receiving new buses again starting with the 7500s which we all know turned out to be junk.

If we look at FG, it got 5300s brand new, making the reason it didn't get 4400s brand new is the same as for 77th. A few years later it passed off its 5300s and what 4400s it had at the time to Kedzie for Kedzie's still at that time relatively new 6000s as part of a solution to the preheater issue that arose at the time with FG and NP. It got 6400s while NP, 103rd, 74th and Kedzie didn't despite their having all been assigned Americana 4000s that the 6400s were billed by CTA management as supposed to be helping to retire. All four of those garages had to wait an extra three to four years before getting new buses, by which time the average bus age at those four had shot up to 10 or more years. The only recently delivered buses FG missed out on were the 1000s. I don't count the artics in FG's side of the equation because of FG's obvious lack of being equipped to be assigned artics.of the current 60 foot length. And though what NF 1000s it had up till February were hand me downs, the 1000s as a series was still a new and young series at the time FG had first been assigned them. And it's quite likely going to get 7900s. So FG hasn't been getting the shaft on buses as some have been apt to believe. Yes it's reduced to having only old buses on its roster but that's only for a few months compared to the few YEARS that turned out was the case those same garages, with the exception of 77th which yes almost always gets new buses, that get lamented as having been getting new buses at FG's expense.

[Sam92]

What would be the point of trading 4300-4332? If Andre is right that the premise is to get hybrid artics to indoor facilities, then there would be no need to trade those since they are hybrids and already assigned to indoor garages.

that's why I said "if not then maybe it was just to get hybrids into indoor garages...." I was mentioning 4300-4332 being sent north on the premise of the other possiblity that they were trying to handle rail substitutions mainly with 4300's as was done down here on the Dan Ryan. Maybe someone near the Blue Line work can answer this by looking at shuttle assignments. I remember the first closure, people posted that Chicago and Kedzie were mainly handling the shuttles (which was also before the 3 way trade of 4000's to 77th and C in exchange for their 4300's started) but since the trade started, NP 4300's have been showing up on those shuttles. One can also take into consideration the Orange Line shuttles. K is most likely handling that so are mainly 4300's being used up there as well? Maybe those factors can somewhat hint at the motives of moving those diesels to NP.

[Busjack]

that's why I said "if not then maybe it was just to get hybrids into indoor garages...." I was mentioning 4300-4332 being sent north on the premise of the other possiblity that they were trying to handle rail substitutions mainly with 4300's as was done down here on the Dan Ryan. ...

Still would have the problem that the Jump grant was to run hybrids, and some number of buses has to be around to run 6 and 14 (approximately what the have now).

Of course, the real issue with the Jump grant is whether they did what they had to, especially with Bus Tracker screens on the buses.

[Sam92]

Still would have the problem that the Jump grant was to run hybrids, and some number of buses has to be around to run 6 and 14 (approximately what the have now).

Of course, the real issue with the Jump grant is whether they did what they had to, especially with Bus Tracker screens on the buses.

They wouldnt have those problems... Essentially the only buses leaving 103rd are 4300-4320 in exchange for a like number of artics from NP (remember, my reply is poking at hypothetical situation number #2 posted here which is whether the goal is moving 4300's up north with the preference of using those for shuttles); that being said... the Jump artics arent involved, they stay at 103rd. The only buses being moved would be 4300-4320 in exchange for a like amout of 4000's as was done with Kedzie, Chicago and 77th (although Kedzie still has its hybrids for the moment along with 103rd but we shall soon see if situation #2 which im talking now ends up happening). Which means 103rd still has the same number of artics which is (barely) enough to run the 6 & J14 (6 is damn near 70-80% 1000's some of these rush hours because J14 uses about about 10 more artics than just the 25 that are jumped wrapped meaning thats half the 4300's already gone to the J14 (which has to be fully artic now as the Jump) along with 169, some dan ryan, 28, 26 & 29 runs that end up with artics leaving only like 10 or so for the 6 which itself uses a heavy ampunt of buses so they are short about 15 artics.... 103rd is actially pretty strategic with 60-65 artics and using them on the extra runs they use them on. Those artics arent always so empty you guy are either riding down here,on a slower day or on a real close follower with the bus ahead getting everybody and loaded to the gills.) And as far as your question about Jump, they never did the tsp and only a few buses got screens.

[jajuan]

They wouldnt have those problems... Essentially the only buses leaving 103rd are 4300-4320 in exchange for a like number of artics from NP (remember, my reply is poking at hypothetical situation number #2 posted here which is whether the goal is moving 4300's up north with the preference of using those for shuttles); that being said... the Jump artics arent involved, they stay at 103rd. The only buses being moved would be 4300-4320 in exchange for a like amout of 4000's as was done with Kedzie, Chicago and 77th (although Kedzie still has its hybrids for the moment along with 103rd but we shall soon see if situation #2 which im talking now ends up happening). Which means 103rd still has the same number of artics which is (barely) enough to run the 6 & J14 (6 is damn near 70-80% 1000's some of these rush hours because J14 uses about about 10 more artics than just the 25 that are jumped wrapped meaning thats half the 4300's already gone to the J14 (which has to be fully artic now as the Jump) along with 169, some dan ryan, 28, 26 & 29 runs that end up with artics leaving only like 10 or so for the 6 which itself uses a heavy ampunt of buses so they are short about 15 artics.... 103rd is actially pretty strategic with 60-65 artics and using them on the extra runs they use them on. Those artics arent always so empty you guy are either riding down here,on a slower day or on a real close follower with the bus ahead getting everybody and loaded to the gills.) And as far as your question about Jump, they never did the tsp and only a few buses got screens.

I'm still of the mind that if they had plans to move 4300-4320 up north, they would have started by now considering that's only 21 buses. And the fact that 26 and 28 still manage to see a few artics lately during the rush periods, even though 103rd's artic count is roughly 45 suggests, to me that your wanting 103rd at up to 65 artics is close to pushing it in spite of your pointing out the pack mentality of some CTA passengers jamming into one bus when an immediate follower is visible just a couple of minutes away. Outside of possible school runs, the Dan Ryan routes and most of the other routes you cite as reasons for placing more artics at 103rd for "strategic" purposes just don't warrant that many artics in my opinion. I'd say at best 103rd could use an additional five to seven additional artics not the extra 15 to 20 that you're talking about. If you think the south side needs more artics, I'd say 77th has a higher need for more artics than 103rd does due to more than just the 79 being a heavily traveled route assigned to that garage. Otherwise, we're moving into that territory of placing artics on routes just for the sake of placing them and not because a measurable need.

[BusHunter]

Seems kind of weird they wouldn't wrap a #4300 for Jump. It's like they don't want to commit to leaving those there. I think they would fit in well with the BRT concept as both are new at CTA. Taking #4300's from chicago doesn't seem to make sense if they are being used for the shuttles. Now I would say coverage now is between 60-70 percent #4300's. If they want to go to 100 percent they'll need most of 77th's and the rest of Chicago's. Maybe they can get by without taking 103rd's #4300's, but not wrapping them makes them tradeable.

[jajuan]

Seems kind of weird they wouldn't wrap a #4300 for Jump. It's like they don't want to commit to leaving those there. I think they would fit in well with the BRT concept as both are new at CTA. Taking #4300's from chicago doesn't seem to make sense if they are being used for the shuttles. Now I would say coverage now is between 60-70 percent #4300's. If they want to go to 100 percent they'll need most of 77th's and the rest of Chicago's. Maybe they can get by without taking 103rd's #4300's, but not wrapping them makes them tradeable.

Perhaps, but lets not forget that at the time any of the 4300s started arriving 4000s had already been committed to the J14. The shuttles aside, the only valid reason I could see touching 103rd's 4300s would be for equalizing artic mileage. Otherwise I just don't see them moving. If the premise were to put all the 4300s up at North Park, why leave the hybrid 4300s that are assigned to Kedzie where they are when the chance was there for NP to snatch those up when they took Kedzie's diesels? That detail alone suggests to me that 103rd keeps its 4300s.

[strictures]

I was on a 36 today in which the Clever Devices display inside wasn't working, but above it was a flashing red LED.

What is that? It appeared to be in the middle of a piece of black plastic about 2"x2".

On a couple of other buses with working displays, there wasn't a flashing red light.

[garmon757]

You spotted another CTA goof-up in that sign that Garmon didn't realize he captured in that pic. You're right that they goofed up on the N5 part of the sign too since if that's a sign for the eastbound side of 69th street, the N5 destination should say 95th/Red Line station and not the 69th Street station.

I had mentioned it above, and didn't really take it hat Garmon had specified the error. All he had mentioned was "this silly mistake," although he did mention patches on #67 signs.

If it is on #67 signs not combined with these routes, then various files used to generate signs must be messed up. Then there would also be the issue of what's on the westbound signs.

I didn't catch the N5 error until you mentioned it Busjack. Speaking of that route, it's really silly how when I look up how many minutes that route departs from 69th/Red Line on the transit app that I have on my iPhone it shows eastbound and westbound instead of northbound and southbound in which that's very confusing.

[nflyer22]

I was on a 36 today in which the Clever Devices display inside wasn't working, but above it was a flashing red LED.

What is that? It appeared to be in the middle of a piece of black plastic about 2"x2".

On a couple of other buses with working displays, there wasn't a flashing red light.

I've seen the flashing red light before and actually I believe it's part of a camera that faces the aisle of the bus. Don't think it has to do with the malfunctioning Clever Devices unit, but I've wondered about the flashing for some time too.

[ArcherRider]

Today is Saturday and they are more buses moves again with 77,C and NP because 4134 is on #66 and 4188 & 4191 on the #79. 4360 is on #146.

[Busjack]

I didn't catch the N5 error until you mentioned it Busjack. Speaking of that route, it's really silly how when I look up how many minutes that route departs from 69th/Red Line on the transit app that I have on my iPhone it shows eastbound and westbound instead of northbound and southbound in which that's very confusing.

The problem there is inherent on any route that doesn't go straight. From the perspective of someone at 69th, they want to go eastbound to South Shore, not southbound to the 95th Red Line station, or they would have stayed on the train.

Probably the bigger mess is that the 423 bus is marked as southbound, including the stretch on Sheridan from Linden to Winnetka, which is northbound, but the theory must have been that the Harlem segment (former 228) prevailed.

I have argued for the theory that destination signs on such a route should change en route (i.e. N5 not display 95-Red Line until 67th-Jeffery), but apparently it doesn't work that way. "Circulators" are the worst, such as the former 127, which one way said downtown and the other medical center, but never changed. There is something similar on Pace 354, which essentially says only Clockwise and Cntrclockwise, instead of Oak Forest via 147.

[BusHunter]

Perhaps, but lets not forget that at the time any of the 4300s started arriving 4000s had already been committed to the J14. The shuttles aside, the only valid reason I could see touching 103rd's 4300s would be for equalizing artic mileage. Otherwise I just don't see them moving. If the premise were to put all the 4300s up at North Park, why leave the hybrid 4300s that are assigned to Kedzie where they are when the chance was there for NP to snatch those up when they took Kedzie's diesels? That detail alone suggests to me that 103rd keeps its 4300s.

Well Kedzie has to do shuttles for the Orange line closure so it's safe.

[jajuan]

Well Kedzie has to do shuttles for the Orange line closure so it's safe.

True, but if the motive is to use 4300s for shuttle service why give up ANY 4300s at all? See how loopholes can still be found when trying to get into the heads of CTA management and explain why they do certain moves? It's not always such a clean fit. I still say they could have gone for 103rd's 4300s weeks ago, but the only thing that's been moving are the clean diesels in exchange for a like number of hybrids from the 4000 series. And the reason I say they could have gone for the 103rd 4300s weeks ago is that they're already doing a three garage simultaneous shift which is already complicated enough when in the past they've shown they can do simultaneous trades that involved more than three garages. So why wait till the gradual trades between NP, Chicago and 77th with the diesels are done? If Kedzie for example needs to hold on to 4300s so badly for use as shuttle buses beyond the question of why they let any go in the first place, why not have say already begun a trade that gave it 4300-4320?

[artthouwill]

Today is Saturday and they are more buses moves again with 77,C and NP because 4134 is on #66 and 4188 & 4191 on the #79. 4360 is on #146.

Wow that was fast. Yesterday I saw 4355, 4361, 4363,4365, 4369, and 4370 along with 4207 working 79th yesterday late P.M. rush.

[strictures]

I've seen the flashing red light before and actually I believe it's part of a camera that faces the aisle of the bus. Don't think it has to do with the malfunctioning Clever Devices unit, but I've wondered about the flashing for some time too.

Except on the buses with working Clever Devices displays, there wasn't a flashing light.

There also weren't any other cameras on those buses, unlike the newest 7300s, which do have them

Then there are those non-functioning displays on some artics that are supposed to tell you about intersecting buses.

I have yet to see one that works, all have something about "Can not connect, etc".

[ArcherRider]

4141 is on #66 this afternoon.

[sw4400]

Ride the CTA enough, and you'll lose your head...

[jajuan]

I've seen the flashing red light before and actually I believe it's part of a camera that faces the aisle of the bus. Don't think it has to do with the malfunctioning Clever Devices unit, but I've wondered about the flashing for some time too.

I think you may be right about it being part of the internal camera system. I've seen that same red flashing come from cameras at the rear of all the NF models, including the artics, that face forward and record the front of the bus from the rear.

[sw4400]

Anyone interested in seeing a GM Articulated bus? This was designed in 1982 to test and demonstrate articulated buses for Hamilton Street Railway, Mississauga Transit, OC Transit and TTC(Toronto Transit Commission)

Bus is a Frankenbus of sorts made of the first 30' of a 35' GM New Look and the back half the last 25' of a 40' GM New Look. Bus had a redesigned front end that would eventually become the GM Classic front end.

53 total made

Engine: Detroit Diesel 8V71N

Transmission: Allison V735

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